Soldiers Need Loans to eat
Join Date: Dec 2004
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The way to stop PAYD is simple. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, on a unit should stop eating in the messes altogether. Also, don't use ANY of the on-base recreational facilities, bars, NAAFI, etc - go to the local pub or downtown instead.
The companies running this fiasco would then suffer massive losses and the scheme would have to be abandoned.
A cynic might think that the reason the core menus have been turned into absolute chod is to force you into paying more for edible food...more profit for the contractors, since they surely can't be making money from providing just the core menu...
The companies running this fiasco would then suffer massive losses and the scheme would have to be abandoned.
A cynic might think that the reason the core menus have been turned into absolute chod is to force you into paying more for edible food...more profit for the contractors, since they surely can't be making money from providing just the core menu...
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I never experienced PAYD while I was in, but at a recent re-union was told a story of a young squaddy who was pretty poor at organising his personal finances, being warned for going abroad for a 6-month long detachment, being paid an advance of his allowances prior to departing, only to have his bank take the lot to recover his overdraft; end result was the serviceman was unable to deploy anywhere, but now had an advance to pay back with no money in the bank - bizarre. 
I wonder if the bank had re-assessed the risk associated with lending money to servicemen and decided to cut their potential losses?
I wonder if the bank had re-assessed the risk associated with lending money to servicemen and decided to cut their potential losses?
You could argue that the reason young men and women are starving is because of the system...but then again, we are part of the system.
How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances? I remember once talking to one of my guys (who was hopelessly overdrawn) how to manage a bank account. He remarked that he couldn't possibly be overdrawn as he had 6 cheques left in his cheque book !!!!!!!
It is the Officers who should feel ashamed not the MOD.
How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances? I remember once talking to one of my guys (who was hopelessly overdrawn) how to manage a bank account. He remarked that he couldn't possibly be overdrawn as he had 6 cheques left in his cheque book !!!!!!!
It is the Officers who should feel ashamed not the MOD.
Some however, will never live up to the expectations of a little bit of intelligence and common sense. Is it the fault of the officers as a whole? Well maybe - if we haven't done our job to train these people or bring them on when we spot weaknesses. However, in some cases, certain individuals serve no purpose in the military other than to act as a warning to others. You can lead them, instruct them, if necessary order them all day and night and it still wouldn't sink in. How on earth are you supposed to deal with that?
This whole point though, still doesn't change the fact that PAYD is a poorly thought out, woefully executed commercial operation that has no part to play in the daily life of any of the armed forces. It merely exists to make money out of a captive audience and generate a few more medals and titles for those - who should know better - that are involved in its introduction. If the RAF wants to go into business, it should stick to flogging lunchboxes and bikinis rather than exploiting its personnel for commercial gain.
Surely 'PAYD' and civilian contractorisation are 2 different things?
'PAYD' was supposed to stop Peter being robbed to feed Paul. But costs are inevitably going to increase under the creeping cancer of contractorisation - because these companies do, funnily enough, expect to make some profit.
'PAYD' was supposed to stop Peter being robbed to feed Paul. But costs are inevitably going to increase under the creeping cancer of contractorisation - because these companies do, funnily enough, expect to make some profit.
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I was lucky enough to miss the worst of this during my "time", having only experienced it for a few days on a visit to Halton last year.
As I had visited Halton a few months before PAYD had been introduced, then a few months afterwards, the differences were stark, and quite depressing.
iirc a cup of tea was/is included in the core breakfast menu, as was a slice of toast (but butter/jam was not). From the normal "Full English" you could select only 5 items, and they were broken down further into more specific food groups. The "hostess" commented one morning that I was only allowed to have "3 carbohydrates" on my plate, so I would have to pay for one of my 2 sausages or a piece of bacon!
As mine was only a classroom based course, it was no real hardship for me, however the guys doing the physical stuff may have struggled on such meagre portions. Yes, I am sure the meal did meat the required calorific value as determined under the governments recommended daily intake for an average male. However, take into account all the extra activity military students, or even average squaddies do on a daily basis, and I'll bet a pound to a penny it falls short.
Combine that with the fact that civilianisation. IT always used to be if you had a bad meal, there was banter to be given to the cooks by the "lads", so there was some incentive to buy good produce. Now the only incentive is profit margins, and all the cooks go home and have no interaction with the "lads" at all.
In my mind, not the best move ever made. I'm glad I'm out.
As I had visited Halton a few months before PAYD had been introduced, then a few months afterwards, the differences were stark, and quite depressing.
iirc a cup of tea was/is included in the core breakfast menu, as was a slice of toast (but butter/jam was not). From the normal "Full English" you could select only 5 items, and they were broken down further into more specific food groups. The "hostess" commented one morning that I was only allowed to have "3 carbohydrates" on my plate, so I would have to pay for one of my 2 sausages or a piece of bacon!
As mine was only a classroom based course, it was no real hardship for me, however the guys doing the physical stuff may have struggled on such meagre portions. Yes, I am sure the meal did meat the required calorific value as determined under the governments recommended daily intake for an average male. However, take into account all the extra activity military students, or even average squaddies do on a daily basis, and I'll bet a pound to a penny it falls short.
Combine that with the fact that civilianisation. IT always used to be if you had a bad meal, there was banter to be given to the cooks by the "lads", so there was some incentive to buy good produce. Now the only incentive is profit margins, and all the cooks go home and have no interaction with the "lads" at all.
In my mind, not the best move ever made. I'm glad I'm out.
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There are plenty here who are saying PAYD is a terrible thing, not in my day, eroding etc etc. I'll echo what a few have said and say the troops wanted it!
Rather than saying 'it is cr@p', tell me how you would make it work? Either you pay for everything (which isn't wanted) or you pay for what you consume (which is PAYD). What is your answer?
I have my own thoughts on this, but how would you solve it?
Rather than saying 'it is cr@p', tell me how you would make it work? Either you pay for everything (which isn't wanted) or you pay for what you consume (which is PAYD). What is your answer?
I have my own thoughts on this, but how would you solve it?
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How about this:
1. The mess runs as it did previously. You are not 'rationed' as to how many sausages you can eat, etc. Food charges remain as they were.
2. You take a meal in the mess, you sign for it.
3. At the end of the month, you are charged (through pay) for those meals you have taken. You do not pay for meals you have not taken.
This is what everybody thought they were getting when PAYD was first mooted.
Yes, overall reciepts from food charges will drop, but the mess will soon enough figure how much food to stock / prepare to prevent waste. If the above somehow leads to not enough money being put into the food budget, then we have, somewhere along the line, been scammed for years.
BINGO! - so THAT'S why they didn't do it this way.....
1. The mess runs as it did previously. You are not 'rationed' as to how many sausages you can eat, etc. Food charges remain as they were.
2. You take a meal in the mess, you sign for it.
3. At the end of the month, you are charged (through pay) for those meals you have taken. You do not pay for meals you have not taken.
This is what everybody thought they were getting when PAYD was first mooted.
Yes, overall reciepts from food charges will drop, but the mess will soon enough figure how much food to stock / prepare to prevent waste. If the above somehow leads to not enough money being put into the food budget, then we have, somewhere along the line, been scammed for years.
BINGO! - so THAT'S why they didn't do it this way.....
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QR's regarding food
How can they ration the number of items/courses you can have when, i have been led to believe that in the QE's there is a statement to the effect of you are entitled to eat in the mess untill full up (don't know the exact wording but it came from a reliable barrack room lawyer), i had the fortune to serve the RAF pre PAYD and when RAF chefs cooked the food, it was allways a good standerd and of better quality than Army messes i visited! I also had no issues with the robbing peter to pay paul scenario of paying for your meals regardless of whether you ate otr not as the figures involved were not great and everyone benifitted from it with the better quality food.
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Another problem with PAYD is that you can only access the core menu at specific times. During a week long visit to Leuchars some 3 years ago my colleagues and I could only make the core breakfast, all others were out of core hours. At the end of the week we were all some £60-70 out of pocket.
It was what people asked for, and for some it has worked well, but it has taken a huge bite out of the culture of the military that is detrimental in every respect.
Loved the life whilst I was in but glad to be out of it now.
It was what people asked for, and for some it has worked well, but it has taken a huge bite out of the culture of the military that is detrimental in every respect.
Loved the life whilst I was in but glad to be out of it now.
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Ironically, perhaps, on Truth Central last Friday ( http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil....sToTheTest.htm for thosewith)
Troops put their taste buds to the test.
09/05/2008
Soldiers from the Welsh Guards have taken the opportunity to be food critics for the day after they were challenged to sample a selection of meals which may eventually make it onto the menu for troops, both in the UK and on operations around the world. Based at Wellington Barracks the Guardsmen took part in a Food Selection Panel (FSP), which is a process used by the MOD’s Defence Food Services team to choose items for the core range list. The list is a catalogue for caterers on ships, submarines and at all operational bases.
The tasting panels are carried out monthly and alternate between the services giving all soldiers, sailors and air personnel the opportunity to have a direct influence on the food that is served at their units. This latest test included a selection of hams, chocolate cakes and pasta salads
Lieutenant Colonel Simon Blake from the Operations and Food Supply Management team at Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) said:
"Food is vitally important to the morale of our Armed Forces, especially whilst deployed on operations. The food served to our soldiers, sailors and airmen is well-balanced, nutritious and plentiful and, unless they are away from the main camp, the majority of our troops eat freshly prepared hot and cold meals, cooked by professional skilled Service chefs, using a wide range of commercial rations including fresh fruit and vegetables.
"We use the Food Selection Panels to ensure that our armed forces have an opportunity to give their opinions in a relaxed and open environment."
Squadron Leader Dave Tanner from the Defence Food Services Integrated Project Team at DE&S is responsible for co-ordinating the tasting panels:
"The Food Selection Panel process is a tried and tested method that we have used in selecting our products for many years," he said. "Once the tasters have completed their organoleptic profiles, the product scores are then reviewed by the committee and assessed against several criteria, namely: nutritional content, exportability, shelf life, packaging, security of supply chain, surge capacity of suppliers, sustainability and Value for Money. This ensures that the troops get the best quality at the optimum price."
The Defence Food Services IPT works extremely closely with Purple Foodservice Solutions which is the prime contractor for its worldwide food supply. Purple's Managing Director Paul Dickinson said:
"We are responsible for getting 1,500 different fresh, chilled, ambient and frozen food products to 1,200 different military locations that are as far flung as the South Atlantic, Germany, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq. The Food Selection Panels help us greatly in making sure that the products we buy are actually the ones service men and women want to see on their plates.
"Equally important is having the confidence that the committee of food experts have passed these products as nutritious and healthy. We are very grateful for the help we get from the many people of all three services who take part in these tasting panels."
09/05/2008
Soldiers from the Welsh Guards have taken the opportunity to be food critics for the day after they were challenged to sample a selection of meals which may eventually make it onto the menu for troops, both in the UK and on operations around the world. Based at Wellington Barracks the Guardsmen took part in a Food Selection Panel (FSP), which is a process used by the MOD’s Defence Food Services team to choose items for the core range list. The list is a catalogue for caterers on ships, submarines and at all operational bases.
The tasting panels are carried out monthly and alternate between the services giving all soldiers, sailors and air personnel the opportunity to have a direct influence on the food that is served at their units. This latest test included a selection of hams, chocolate cakes and pasta salads
Lieutenant Colonel Simon Blake from the Operations and Food Supply Management team at Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) said:
"Food is vitally important to the morale of our Armed Forces, especially whilst deployed on operations. The food served to our soldiers, sailors and airmen is well-balanced, nutritious and plentiful and, unless they are away from the main camp, the majority of our troops eat freshly prepared hot and cold meals, cooked by professional skilled Service chefs, using a wide range of commercial rations including fresh fruit and vegetables.
"We use the Food Selection Panels to ensure that our armed forces have an opportunity to give their opinions in a relaxed and open environment."
Squadron Leader Dave Tanner from the Defence Food Services Integrated Project Team at DE&S is responsible for co-ordinating the tasting panels:
"The Food Selection Panel process is a tried and tested method that we have used in selecting our products for many years," he said. "Once the tasters have completed their organoleptic profiles, the product scores are then reviewed by the committee and assessed against several criteria, namely: nutritional content, exportability, shelf life, packaging, security of supply chain, surge capacity of suppliers, sustainability and Value for Money. This ensures that the troops get the best quality at the optimum price."
The Defence Food Services IPT works extremely closely with Purple Foodservice Solutions which is the prime contractor for its worldwide food supply. Purple's Managing Director Paul Dickinson said:
"We are responsible for getting 1,500 different fresh, chilled, ambient and frozen food products to 1,200 different military locations that are as far flung as the South Atlantic, Germany, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq. The Food Selection Panels help us greatly in making sure that the products we buy are actually the ones service men and women want to see on their plates.
"Equally important is having the confidence that the committee of food experts have passed these products as nutritious and healthy. We are very grateful for the help we get from the many people of all three services who take part in these tasting panels."
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Inquisitor,
I like your suggestion, surely the only way ahead is to sign for what you eat, having selected a menu of choice. Good food at a reasonable price will doubtless bring in the customers; conversely bad or over-priced food will drive them away. The monthly food bill could then be deducted from your pay, or you could pay on the way out. Hello contractors, how do you suppose large restaurants manage?
I do hope though that we never descend to the US idea of a "motorway catering" style of service, with various stalls offering cholesterol-fill rubbish. (Although I must confess that the cinnamon buns at Ramstein are yummy).
The best catering I ever experienced was in the South Catering tent at Port Stanley in '82. Filthy conditions, windy as hell, but the food (all cooked under field conditions) was outstanding. The Service chefs took a real pride in what they were doing and the boys responded. I know the food was free, but the point is that good food can be provided and surely economy of scale should ensure a fair price. The DMR was never very much, yet we seemed to manage when the "uniforms" ran the show.
What do the RN do afloat, I wonder?
Pip pip ON
I like your suggestion, surely the only way ahead is to sign for what you eat, having selected a menu of choice. Good food at a reasonable price will doubtless bring in the customers; conversely bad or over-priced food will drive them away. The monthly food bill could then be deducted from your pay, or you could pay on the way out. Hello contractors, how do you suppose large restaurants manage?
I do hope though that we never descend to the US idea of a "motorway catering" style of service, with various stalls offering cholesterol-fill rubbish. (Although I must confess that the cinnamon buns at Ramstein are yummy).
The best catering I ever experienced was in the South Catering tent at Port Stanley in '82. Filthy conditions, windy as hell, but the food (all cooked under field conditions) was outstanding. The Service chefs took a real pride in what they were doing and the boys responded. I know the food was free, but the point is that good food can be provided and surely economy of scale should ensure a fair price. The DMR was never very much, yet we seemed to manage when the "uniforms" ran the show.
What do the RN do afloat, I wonder?
Pip pip ON
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How about this:
1. The mess runs as it did previously. You are not 'rationed' as to how many sausages you can eat, etc. Food charges remain as they were.
2. You take a meal in the mess, you sign for it.
3. At the end of the month, you are charged (through pay) for those meals you have taken. You do not pay for meals you have not taken.
This is what everybody thought they were getting when PAYD was first mooted.
1. The mess runs as it did previously. You are not 'rationed' as to how many sausages you can eat, etc. Food charges remain as they were.
2. You take a meal in the mess, you sign for it.
3. At the end of the month, you are charged (through pay) for those meals you have taken. You do not pay for meals you have not taken.
This is what everybody thought they were getting when PAYD was first mooted.
The only way the whole messing arrangement worked was because of the fact that alot of people didn't eat every meal. It was therefore perfectly possible for those who were eating at the time to have as much as they wanted. It most certainly however cost more than the set fee that was being paid by that individual for that meal.
The kitchen/mess staff are no fools, they knew what proportion of livers-in to expect at each meal and cooked accordingly. PAYD removed that ability to reassign funds between meals/livers-in and resulted in an inevitable decrease in quantity of food available.
Quality however, now that's a contractorisation issue and don't get me started there....
Would it pass the pint test?
Did it cost more than the price of a pint everyday to eat till your sides split?
No way so why did we whinge?
Yes the quality was better but the focus was on quality not profit. Chefs took pride in offering a wide range of food that was plentiful and well cooked. They knew that the uptake over the entire month maybe 60-65% of the meals and could pinpoint days when they expected only 10-15% mainly duty staff, at weekends and grants. This gave them flex to manage the food on offer.
We got duty suppers cos we worked nightshift and brunches on sat/sun where due to the few people around the chef could make up or prepare small portions for those recovering from the previous nights exceesses, where we had often spent many times the price of a beer.
Good value bloody right it was.
I blame the same people that keep changing the design of the wooly pully, scrotes without a life.
SJ
No way so why did we whinge?
Yes the quality was better but the focus was on quality not profit. Chefs took pride in offering a wide range of food that was plentiful and well cooked. They knew that the uptake over the entire month maybe 60-65% of the meals and could pinpoint days when they expected only 10-15% mainly duty staff, at weekends and grants. This gave them flex to manage the food on offer.
We got duty suppers cos we worked nightshift and brunches on sat/sun where due to the few people around the chef could make up or prepare small portions for those recovering from the previous nights exceesses, where we had often spent many times the price of a beer.
Good value bloody right it was.
I blame the same people that keep changing the design of the wooly pully, scrotes without a life.
SJ
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Old Ned - all meals onboard in the RN are free. Even when the Ship is alongside. I have heard rumours that this might change - although I suspect any changes would only be when alongside and for non-duty personnel.
As for:
"How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances?"
Yes, I can. Isn't taking an interest in your people part of the job? Presumably the other 2 services take an interest when cheques are bounced back to the unit?
As for:
"How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances?"
Yes, I can. Isn't taking an interest in your people part of the job? Presumably the other 2 services take an interest when cheques are bounced back to the unit?
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They knew that the uptake over the entire month maybe 60-65% of the meals and could pinpoint days when they expected only 10-15% mainly duty staff, at weekends and grants. This gave them flex to manage the food on offer
Compared to a 17 year old burger flipper ......
Money, in the end. It's just down to money. Oh, and blind ignorance to drive something to it's illogical conclusion and the fear of loss of face when it goes predicatably t!ts.