William borrows a company Vehicle.....
HRH was NOT learning how to fly over the 'oggin! ....
but he might have doing the navigation because the Wokka more or less followed the track endlessly ploughed across the West Solent by the Lymington-Yarmouth ferry!
I had no idea who was on board at the time when I saw it but, now I do know, I am supremely unbothered!
Jack
PS Jackonicko - To make you feel better, I hereby award you a virtual AFC (All Flaming Codswallop)
but he might have doing the navigation because the Wokka more or less followed the track endlessly ploughed across the West Solent by the Lymington-Yarmouth ferry!
I had no idea who was on board at the time when I saw it but, now I do know, I am supremely unbothered!
Jack
PS Jackonicko - To make you feel better, I hereby award you a virtual AFC (All Flaming Codswallop)
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I'm surprised
that so many people here have taken such a strong position in defence of this flight, adopted an almost (at times) rabid stance - almost a 'how dare you criticise?' viewpoint. We are currently engaged in a battle for hearts and minds - like it or not or the great British public have an attention span of 2 minutes, and a capacity for rational thought that even soundbyte politics stretches. This flight was NEVER going to be seen in a good light by the British public, and the argument that it was a genuine training flight that just happened to end up at a mega party for a couple of princes isn't going to get the majority vote on any jury this side of hell freezing over.
It's bad PR - whether it can be considered a reasonable training evolution or not, the average Joe is going to view it as an expensive taxi. The RAF hierarchy look bloody stupid for attempting to explain it as anything other than that.
It's most unfortunate that this came out, I have nothing against the chap at all - although I do sympathise somewhat with the view expressed earlier in the thread about where a Chinook is better employed... you can't, obviously, just spirit the helo into Afghanistan for an hour or two in preference to heading to a p*ss up UK side, but those who are attacking the critics so vitriolically might consider the PR impact of the shortage of Chinooks at the sharp end when stories like this break.
It wouldn't have taken much in the way of IQ to figure out a way to get the princes to their party without creating a headline enroute, would it? How many other graduates that day took part in essential training flights?
I'm not annoyed or bitching about what occurred - other than to express sadness that the powers that be couldn't see what a negative story this was bound to make....there was zero potential for anything good to come out of this master plan, If we want the public onside it helps to avoid sighting on our feet.
Dave
that so many people here have taken such a strong position in defence of this flight, adopted an almost (at times) rabid stance - almost a 'how dare you criticise?' viewpoint. We are currently engaged in a battle for hearts and minds - like it or not or the great British public have an attention span of 2 minutes, and a capacity for rational thought that even soundbyte politics stretches. This flight was NEVER going to be seen in a good light by the British public, and the argument that it was a genuine training flight that just happened to end up at a mega party for a couple of princes isn't going to get the majority vote on any jury this side of hell freezing over.
It's bad PR - whether it can be considered a reasonable training evolution or not, the average Joe is going to view it as an expensive taxi. The RAF hierarchy look bloody stupid for attempting to explain it as anything other than that.
It's most unfortunate that this came out, I have nothing against the chap at all - although I do sympathise somewhat with the view expressed earlier in the thread about where a Chinook is better employed... you can't, obviously, just spirit the helo into Afghanistan for an hour or two in preference to heading to a p*ss up UK side, but those who are attacking the critics so vitriolically might consider the PR impact of the shortage of Chinooks at the sharp end when stories like this break.
It wouldn't have taken much in the way of IQ to figure out a way to get the princes to their party without creating a headline enroute, would it? How many other graduates that day took part in essential training flights?
I'm not annoyed or bitching about what occurred - other than to express sadness that the powers that be couldn't see what a negative story this was bound to make....there was zero potential for anything good to come out of this master plan, If we want the public onside it helps to avoid sighting on our feet.
Dave
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Jolly green wokka trip or Green wokka Jolly ?
Well said Jackonico and djb - why doesn't the PR spin machine at MoD get real - normal training sortie my b
! Oh, I see fast track from Squirrel to Chinook - oops we forgot the Griffin !!
The Chinook course would have been longer than his total training thus far !
Must have been just about the most expensive heli taxi ever - I'd like to have known whether there were any other non-miltary VVIP's carried on the sortie out of Woolwich - authorisation for non MoD personnel ??
They must think we're a gang of muppets to try to convince us this was all legit !
! Oh, I see fast track from Squirrel to Chinook - oops we forgot the Griffin !!The Chinook course would have been longer than his total training thus far !
Must have been just about the most expensive heli taxi ever - I'd like to have known whether there were any other non-miltary VVIP's carried on the sortie out of Woolwich - authorisation for non MoD personnel ??
They must think we're a gang of muppets to try to convince us this was all legit !
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Jacko
I'd tend to agree with you, not exactly good press and to me really shows the lads thoughts towards his course mate's ... sort of f*** you, I got my badge now, dont need you any more and am going on the lash with me bruvver.... now where's the TAXI...
Oh and while we are on the subject... Harry, top marks to him for going on the two way range and all. My and I think a lot of other people's opinion of the lad went up tremendously and it really seemed to disappoint the lad when he had to be pulled out after the news broke, but it was probably the only sensible thing to do as he would have been a high value target.
However..... Did he really have to go straight out on the town and on holiday with the long time g/f Kate? .... with so much publicity? IMHO he would have been far better off either keeping his head down publicly for the rest of the tour or getting up and being counted on the home front as a Troop Comd supporting the troops from back here instead of seemingly switching into party mode at the first opportunity.
Ok he's a young lad and he'd been on ops and all (same as pretty much the rest of the Army now, with the Navy and Airforce rapidly catching up) but the thing is ..... His mates were still out there, dodging lead on the two way range etc.... and he's off partying... mmm, sorry but, he lost most of his brownie points with me after that....
Just my two pennyworth .... and no I'm not against the Boss and her family, far from it.... I just think some of the younger ones shouldn’t take the piss with the firms toys.....
ok, helmet on and awaiting the incoming......................
I'd tend to agree with you, not exactly good press and to me really shows the lads thoughts towards his course mate's ... sort of f*** you, I got my badge now, dont need you any more and am going on the lash with me bruvver.... now where's the TAXI...
Oh and while we are on the subject... Harry, top marks to him for going on the two way range and all. My and I think a lot of other people's opinion of the lad went up tremendously and it really seemed to disappoint the lad when he had to be pulled out after the news broke, but it was probably the only sensible thing to do as he would have been a high value target.
However..... Did he really have to go straight out on the town and on holiday with the long time g/f Kate? .... with so much publicity? IMHO he would have been far better off either keeping his head down publicly for the rest of the tour or getting up and being counted on the home front as a Troop Comd supporting the troops from back here instead of seemingly switching into party mode at the first opportunity.
Ok he's a young lad and he'd been on ops and all (same as pretty much the rest of the Army now, with the Navy and Airforce rapidly catching up) but the thing is ..... His mates were still out there, dodging lead on the two way range etc.... and he's off partying... mmm, sorry but, he lost most of his brownie points with me after that....
Just my two pennyworth .... and no I'm not against the Boss and her family, far from it.... I just think some of the younger ones shouldn’t take the piss with the firms toys.....
ok, helmet on and awaiting the incoming......................
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Jackonicko - You're right
Whatever your view of the Royals, qualifications always incur a price in terms of real sweat. There is a strong argument that the heir to the thrown should have a working knowledge of those services for which he will nominally be signing the commission scrolls some time in the future (at least in facsimile). Nevertheless, awarding pilots' wings is a step too far.
Cornet Wales could have enjoyed the necessary experience without the facade of paper wings. We all know how honorary the wings are but the public cannot be expected to see the difference. The whole issue smacks of political spin and I wonder what advantage Glen Torpy saw in it, if he had much choice in the matter versus more important issues. If it was just for short term RAF publicity, I am mightily disappointed.
As a fully paid-up member of the two-winged master race, I agree with Jackonicko's sentiment (at least as I read it) that award of wings has been an inappropriate reward for Cornet Wales' limited experience. Whilst I'm not crying into my pint, I feel my wings have been somewhat devalued as a result. I feel no pride in their being shared for lesser training, not because I had to go through the mill therefore so should everyone else, but simply because Wings are meant to guarantee a minimum standard, one I have been proud to share with deserving individuals. At one time (certainly in the last decade), and maybe still now, Wings were simply 'loaned' until a pilot achieved combat ready or operational status on a sqn. In this case, that has hardly been achieved.
So far as the Chinook ride is concerned, shame on the powers that be for being so naive. A few years back (2002'sish), weekend landaways were being cancelled due to the unhealthy interest of the Sun and similar newspapers. Somehow, the link between having an honest beer in a foreign bar and the training dividend in getting there was being frowned at publicly - an experience I think many an ex-Harrier pilot will remember. So less than six years' later, how did anyone feel that this incident would be ignored, whether or not it could be passed off as some obscure part of Cornet Wales' famil training?
Just because Royals across the globe have been doing this for generations does not mean it is right.
Cornet Wales could have enjoyed the necessary experience without the facade of paper wings. We all know how honorary the wings are but the public cannot be expected to see the difference. The whole issue smacks of political spin and I wonder what advantage Glen Torpy saw in it, if he had much choice in the matter versus more important issues. If it was just for short term RAF publicity, I am mightily disappointed.
As a fully paid-up member of the two-winged master race, I agree with Jackonicko's sentiment (at least as I read it) that award of wings has been an inappropriate reward for Cornet Wales' limited experience. Whilst I'm not crying into my pint, I feel my wings have been somewhat devalued as a result. I feel no pride in their being shared for lesser training, not because I had to go through the mill therefore so should everyone else, but simply because Wings are meant to guarantee a minimum standard, one I have been proud to share with deserving individuals. At one time (certainly in the last decade), and maybe still now, Wings were simply 'loaned' until a pilot achieved combat ready or operational status on a sqn. In this case, that has hardly been achieved.
So far as the Chinook ride is concerned, shame on the powers that be for being so naive. A few years back (2002'sish), weekend landaways were being cancelled due to the unhealthy interest of the Sun and similar newspapers. Somehow, the link between having an honest beer in a foreign bar and the training dividend in getting there was being frowned at publicly - an experience I think many an ex-Harrier pilot will remember. So less than six years' later, how did anyone feel that this incident would be ignored, whether or not it could be passed off as some obscure part of Cornet Wales' famil training?
Just because Royals across the globe have been doing this for generations does not mean it is right.
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"Boss, there's a party 100Nms away tonight and I'm invited. Whats the chance of getting a cab to take me there?"
"Bloggs, if its within the budgeted training needs of the crew, crack on. Don't take the pi$$. Plan it properly, stick to your route and don't screw up. And don't forget to bring back a bottle for the crew room bar."
"Bloggs, if its within the budgeted training needs of the crew, crack on. Don't take the pi$$. Plan it properly, stick to your route and don't screw up. And don't forget to bring back a bottle for the crew room bar."
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Please excuse another Journo popping in but I just have to say something.
It if wasn't for "training flights" I'd not have had half as much knowledge of - and fun with - the armed forces.
Thanks to trips in nice white 146s, VC10s, Sea Kings, and Lynxes, I have got to places I needed to get to quicker and I may have had a bit of fun at the end. If someone learns a bit about landing at Schipol, Plockton, Sealion Island or the back of a Dutch LPD then it's all to the good.
I have spent a lot of time working with and for the three UK services and those of other nations.
One day they may be dropping me off on a remote Scottish island for practice. The next day, they could be back there for real with a casualty in foul weather or whatever. Training comes in handy.
What I just wanted to say was this is such a non-story and it makes me sad that ill-informed people in my line of work make so much of it. I just hope Wills and H left some liquid thanks in a mess somewhere for all those involved to enjoy.
Dan.
Back to my beer now.
It if wasn't for "training flights" I'd not have had half as much knowledge of - and fun with - the armed forces.
Thanks to trips in nice white 146s, VC10s, Sea Kings, and Lynxes, I have got to places I needed to get to quicker and I may have had a bit of fun at the end. If someone learns a bit about landing at Schipol, Plockton, Sealion Island or the back of a Dutch LPD then it's all to the good.
I have spent a lot of time working with and for the three UK services and those of other nations.
One day they may be dropping me off on a remote Scottish island for practice. The next day, they could be back there for real with a casualty in foul weather or whatever. Training comes in handy.
What I just wanted to say was this is such a non-story and it makes me sad that ill-informed people in my line of work make so much of it. I just hope Wills and H left some liquid thanks in a mess somewhere for all those involved to enjoy.
Dan.
Back to my beer now.
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I can remember feeling very miffed back in the mid sixties when a previously non Army Aviation Maj.Gen. was appointed Commander Army Aviation and on visiting us at an aviation seminar in Bielefeld was awarded Army wings by the senior officer present, it certainly did belittle the efforts of those who successfully completed the course.
Why not award the wings, brevets, badges whatever but have a ruling that if they are honourary they should be worn on the opposite sleeve, chest side etc.?
As far as this Chinook trip goes, "so what"? - if it hadn't flown to Bembridge it would have gone somewhere else and there was training value for the crew, (it is not as though HRH was the captain), London heli-lanes, off-shore procedure, landing at an unfamiliar site etc. etc. Just a shame it got out and wasn't better handled by the PR machine.
Why not award the wings, brevets, badges whatever but have a ruling that if they are honourary they should be worn on the opposite sleeve, chest side etc.?
As far as this Chinook trip goes, "so what"? - if it hadn't flown to Bembridge it would have gone somewhere else and there was training value for the crew, (it is not as though HRH was the captain), London heli-lanes, off-shore procedure, landing at an unfamiliar site etc. etc. Just a shame it got out and wasn't better handled by the PR machine.
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Champagne anyone...?
I must say the righteous pontification that is going on in this thread is pretty stunning, even for Pprune. Some of you people are clearly terribly insecure...
The award of wings to HRH was a symbolic gesture, tipping a nod to the fact that the bloke is going to be our Commander in Chief one day. That he was awarded wings in no way denigrates the one's I, my colleagues and forebears wear or wore. I know what I went through to get them and that's that. I don't need to march around the streets announcing it to all and sundry. HRH brings no shame on the RAF wings brevet - quite the opposite. Just think about the various morons, perverts and criminals over the years that have been awarded wings - if you want the value of your wings lowered, these are the people to go to, not some 25 yr old lad who, by virtue of birth, is thrust into this situation. As I've said before on this subject - get over yourselves. If you're anti-Royalist, fine, crack on but don't use these recent events to snipe at the lad and sully the RAF's name.
As for the Chinook trip - whoopy do. Seriously, this isn't a waste of tax payers money. The aircarft would've been flying anyway so who gives a rat's arse. I too am also a taxpayer and can safely say that there are actual, genuine wastes of my money that I would like addressed. Dressing this up as a shocking waste of taxpayers money purely to promote an anti-Royalist agenda is just sad. Yes, Chinooks are needed out in theatre but do you cretins seriously think that we'd just stick them all out there and that would be it? Crews do actually need training every now and then. FFS.
As for public perception I can GUARANTEE you that this fell off Joe Public's radar the minute they turned the page to the tits on page 3. Seriously folks, people really don't care - there are far bigger things for them to worry about namely the credit crunch, The Apprentice and the next Big Brother.
Stop taking yourselves so seriously
The award of wings to HRH was a symbolic gesture, tipping a nod to the fact that the bloke is going to be our Commander in Chief one day. That he was awarded wings in no way denigrates the one's I, my colleagues and forebears wear or wore. I know what I went through to get them and that's that. I don't need to march around the streets announcing it to all and sundry. HRH brings no shame on the RAF wings brevet - quite the opposite. Just think about the various morons, perverts and criminals over the years that have been awarded wings - if you want the value of your wings lowered, these are the people to go to, not some 25 yr old lad who, by virtue of birth, is thrust into this situation. As I've said before on this subject - get over yourselves. If you're anti-Royalist, fine, crack on but don't use these recent events to snipe at the lad and sully the RAF's name.
As for the Chinook trip - whoopy do. Seriously, this isn't a waste of tax payers money. The aircarft would've been flying anyway so who gives a rat's arse. I too am also a taxpayer and can safely say that there are actual, genuine wastes of my money that I would like addressed. Dressing this up as a shocking waste of taxpayers money purely to promote an anti-Royalist agenda is just sad. Yes, Chinooks are needed out in theatre but do you cretins seriously think that we'd just stick them all out there and that would be it? Crews do actually need training every now and then. FFS.
As for public perception I can GUARANTEE you that this fell off Joe Public's radar the minute they turned the page to the tits on page 3. Seriously folks, people really don't care - there are far bigger things for them to worry about namely the credit crunch, The Apprentice and the next Big Brother.
Stop taking yourselves so seriously
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Reality check
I can't decide which is more charmingly quaint... the idea that PW should skip a party with his real friends to drink beer with his course...or that he cares very much what The Sun thinks of him.
The reality is that he has people who are paid to keep him out of this sort of embarrassment. They failed.
The rights and wrongs of using service assets for private fun can be debated for ever. But this wasn't right or wrong - just stupid.
Senior officers have no business spinning it as anything else. I suspect it's only out of a misconceived sense of loyalty... it would be comical if it weren't quite so demeaning to them and their service.
...or do they think it'll get them a Garden Party invitation??!
The reality is that he has people who are paid to keep him out of this sort of embarrassment. They failed.
The rights and wrongs of using service assets for private fun can be debated for ever. But this wasn't right or wrong - just stupid.
Senior officers have no business spinning it as anything else. I suspect it's only out of a misconceived sense of loyalty... it would be comical if it weren't quite so demeaning to them and their service.
...or do they think it'll get them a Garden Party invitation??!
hmmmmm....
Not really sure what to say. I know that this subject is close to mine and Max's hearts as we both got our Wings and sooooo close to a full career on the wokka (although fair dues Max you got to the Sqn - I didn't
)
Anything I could say about waste of money...not entitled to wings...bad PR for the RAF...etc would just be jealousy as I wish I was back in the cockpit. (Which is, let us remind ourselves, probably the last place in which you will ever find Wills again in his life as he embarks upon a career of being Heir and ultimately King and all the foreign diplomacy horse$hit and grip n' grin photo ops that he can handle.)
Sure we had jollies, but they were on the back of authorised convex sorties (Nice...Souda Bay anyone?!). This mountain-out-of-a-molehill is exactly what Stopstart says it is in the post above: the crew got training; the sortie would have been flown in one way or another; it could have been to Blackpool but as it happens it was to Bembridge; Wills is an Officer, a Prince, and the future King to boot. (Or are all the critics living in the 1650s?)
Endex - back to my mahogany wokka.
)Anything I could say about waste of money...not entitled to wings...bad PR for the RAF...etc would just be jealousy as I wish I was back in the cockpit. (Which is, let us remind ourselves, probably the last place in which you will ever find Wills again in his life as he embarks upon a career of being Heir and ultimately King and all the foreign diplomacy horse$hit and grip n' grin photo ops that he can handle.)
Sure we had jollies, but they were on the back of authorised convex sorties (Nice...Souda Bay anyone?!). This mountain-out-of-a-molehill is exactly what Stopstart says it is in the post above: the crew got training; the sortie would have been flown in one way or another; it could have been to Blackpool but as it happens it was to Bembridge; Wills is an Officer, a Prince, and the future King to boot. (Or are all the critics living in the 1650s?)
Endex - back to my mahogany wokka.
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Blimey, it really is a slow news week both in the media and on here.
Surely the answer is 'who gives a sh*t'.
Is it me or has PPRUNE Mill got a bit boring in the last couple of weeks?
Is everybody away on ops or something? Also what happened to all of the yank and the banter?
Is it time to start another snowdrop bashing thread?
Surely the answer is 'who gives a sh*t'.
Is it me or has PPRUNE Mill got a bit boring in the last couple of weeks?
Is everybody away on ops or something? Also what happened to all of the yank and the banter?
Is it time to start another snowdrop bashing thread?
StopStart
Well said.
JN
Shame on you!
God you must be insecure!!! I bet it hadn't even crossed your mind until you read this topic.
I'm proud that the future King has at least experienced some of the training that we all had to go through. So what that he didn't do the same course as me/us. He will never fly operationally - again so what?
MISCONCEIVED!! He will be our C-in-C one day FFS!!
Oh and anyone can apply for a Garden Party invite, you don't have to wait to be asked you know!
Can we end this now?
Well said.
JN
Shame on you!
I feel my wings have been somewhat devalued as a result
I'm proud that the future King has at least experienced some of the training that we all had to go through. So what that he didn't do the same course as me/us. He will never fly operationally - again so what?
misconceived sense of loyalty
Oh and anyone can apply for a Garden Party invite, you don't have to wait to be asked you know!
Can we end this now?
Well, BigX, I'm with StopStart, Roland, and Goudie here - your post certainly suggests that you're very well on the way with your declared Public Profile interest of "Learning how to be a civilian ".....
Jack
PS But I loved your presumably (with you being a self-styled "fully paid-up member of the two-winged master race) Freudian slip, "heir to the thrown"!
Jack
PS But I loved your presumably (with you being a self-styled "fully paid-up member of the two-winged master race) Freudian slip, "heir to the thrown"!
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The continual, "the powers that be have been naive/stupid etc etc to let this happen" and "who in their right minds thought this was a good idea" makes one pivotal assumption, as follows:
That they knew what Prince William and Harry do planned to do with their time off at the weekend.
Well, have a little think, and consider what information is appropriate to divulge from Royalty. Their private life is none of our business, IMHO. Clearly, lowlife journos have to take a different view because it ultimately pays their wages by giving eye-catching headlines for the masses.
So, prior to thinking that the RAF and SH force is in any way culpable for doing anything other than completing an FHT as they were mandated to do so, how's about considering the true picture instead of the easy to digest, sensationalised view given by the gutter press.
I put it to you, that you (who have made the statements I alluded to above) are the naive ones, for actually believing what you read in these rags!
That they knew what Prince William and Harry do planned to do with their time off at the weekend.
Well, have a little think, and consider what information is appropriate to divulge from Royalty. Their private life is none of our business, IMHO. Clearly, lowlife journos have to take a different view because it ultimately pays their wages by giving eye-catching headlines for the masses.
So, prior to thinking that the RAF and SH force is in any way culpable for doing anything other than completing an FHT as they were mandated to do so, how's about considering the true picture instead of the easy to digest, sensationalised view given by the gutter press.
I put it to you, that you (who have made the statements I alluded to above) are the naive ones, for actually believing what you read in these rags!
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What's all this bleating because the guy went to a real mates stag do rather than stay and drink beer with "his course mates"? He didn't do any real courses and so did not graduate with "his course". He jumped around from one aircraft to another and never was a real part of any true course. As such he did not have "course mates" to drink beer with.
As for the use of a Chinny to ferry him and his bro' to the party, so what! It was real training for the real crew, whether or not the Nu-Labour spin coming from the MOD and RAF mouth-pieces is believed. I am with those that see nothing wrong with the flight, but a hell of a lot wrong with the lies about the training value for Wills!! Bo!!ox was it a flight for his training benefit! It was a training flight for the crew on the back of a taxi service for him and Harry, but training flight for the crew non-the-less!
And as for those that think the cab should have been out in the 'stan, if that were the case what would the crews and studes at home use to continue their training? This flight was training for such a crew back home.
MadMark!!!
As for the use of a Chinny to ferry him and his bro' to the party, so what! It was real training for the real crew, whether or not the Nu-Labour spin coming from the MOD and RAF mouth-pieces is believed. I am with those that see nothing wrong with the flight, but a hell of a lot wrong with the lies about the training value for Wills!! Bo!!ox was it a flight for his training benefit! It was a training flight for the crew on the back of a taxi service for him and Harry, but training flight for the crew non-the-less!
And as for those that think the cab should have been out in the 'stan, if that were the case what would the crews and studes at home use to continue their training? This flight was training for such a crew back home.
MadMark!!!
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Union Jack,
Yep, Learning all the time and it never gets any easier.
Nope, nothing Freudian. Blame jet lag and too many 'welcome home' beers in the local after a dry trip. Soapboxes always seem a better idea in such circumstances.
Nice Castle, I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, the 40,000 plus still in the RAF and thus in the know are somewhat outnumbered by the rest. Own goals nibble away at the RAF's reputation and are too rarely counterbalanced by positive press, especially when the same day's press was able to report about some pillock flying low over the Open.
Roland, whatever.
Yep, Learning all the time and it never gets any easier.
Nope, nothing Freudian. Blame jet lag and too many 'welcome home' beers in the local after a dry trip. Soapboxes always seem a better idea in such circumstances.
Nice Castle, I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, the 40,000 plus still in the RAF and thus in the know are somewhat outnumbered by the rest. Own goals nibble away at the RAF's reputation and are too rarely counterbalanced by positive press, especially when the same day's press was able to report about some pillock flying low over the Open.
Roland, whatever.