A2 Pay?
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At the risk of thread creep I’m going to throw this one in.
In the current high tempo climate for all Army types there is a shortage of willing volunteers to step up to the QHI course and QFI course alike. Now if you offer the line of least resistance the average pilot will take it, after all, we are all lazy! I digress. If a pilot wants to better himself/herself the old option was the QHI/QFI course. This took a fair bit of effort, even to get a recommend was hard enough, and then the Standards check ride and then the board. I recall that pilots were often deferred and even with a Standards recommend individuals were not guaranteed to be loaded onto a course. Life is very different now. To my knowledge there isn’t a single applicant for QHI training from 4 Regt and QHI courses are bereft of Army pilots! A number of reasons (mainly no one left who’s got the hours!). There is an easier option to get out of the “line shag” rat race. The panacea for instructor shortages which is the AI. For the AAC this a dream come true. For the lazy pilot it is even better. Okay, a recommend is required (most of the time, DE officers can, and have bye-pass that one) I don’t need to attend a difficult to pass course which will up-root the family and get a posting to Wallop. I’m out of the “line shag” rat race, and in a Sqn appointment with minimal effort. Win Win.
Now then, what of the QHI. A dying breed. Unless there is an incentive to get the boys and girls to step up, then the line of least resistance will be the one most often trodden.
As a QHI myself, I would not say "No" to a pay rise, though I do consider myself to be well paid, however my colleagues of the non-QHI type do get slightly better value. The world we all live in is changing. The greed that is inherent in any capitalist market will drive us all to want more money. For me, I’m a bit of a socialist; all I want is the best training for the lads and lasses who are soon to be sent in harms way. Now, if that comes at a cost, then it is a price that must be paid. If we are to place an incentive to get the QHI’s through the door, it will most likely be financial in its origin. We promote REME technicians as far as Sgt in order that we can pay them the required amount to compete with civilian trades. So do we offer promotion to QHI’s and run the risk of over promoting unsuitable leaders, but pay them a higher amount, or do we give them a higher rate of flying pay, I do believe that parachute instructors get instructor rates of para pay!
We all know how long, costly and rewarding the QHI course is. If we can train AI’s to deliver the same quality of training at a fraction of the price, then fine. But so far I am yet to be convinced, something has to give, and unfortunately it is quite often the quality, there are exceptions, I accept. What I do know is this. The demands on our people are increasing, and the rewards seem harder to find. There was a time when quality flying was reward enough, but CH47 escorts in Helmand (and I know B Flt, 18 Sqn RAF, thought they didn’t need them) and currency flying in LFA 10 just don’t cut it any more.
So, the demands on our leadership increase as well. If there isn’t adequate compensation for effort and sacrifice then the current trend of voting with feet will continue.
There, thread creep complete.
In the current high tempo climate for all Army types there is a shortage of willing volunteers to step up to the QHI course and QFI course alike. Now if you offer the line of least resistance the average pilot will take it, after all, we are all lazy! I digress. If a pilot wants to better himself/herself the old option was the QHI/QFI course. This took a fair bit of effort, even to get a recommend was hard enough, and then the Standards check ride and then the board. I recall that pilots were often deferred and even with a Standards recommend individuals were not guaranteed to be loaded onto a course. Life is very different now. To my knowledge there isn’t a single applicant for QHI training from 4 Regt and QHI courses are bereft of Army pilots! A number of reasons (mainly no one left who’s got the hours!). There is an easier option to get out of the “line shag” rat race. The panacea for instructor shortages which is the AI. For the AAC this a dream come true. For the lazy pilot it is even better. Okay, a recommend is required (most of the time, DE officers can, and have bye-pass that one) I don’t need to attend a difficult to pass course which will up-root the family and get a posting to Wallop. I’m out of the “line shag” rat race, and in a Sqn appointment with minimal effort. Win Win.
Now then, what of the QHI. A dying breed. Unless there is an incentive to get the boys and girls to step up, then the line of least resistance will be the one most often trodden.
As a QHI myself, I would not say "No" to a pay rise, though I do consider myself to be well paid, however my colleagues of the non-QHI type do get slightly better value. The world we all live in is changing. The greed that is inherent in any capitalist market will drive us all to want more money. For me, I’m a bit of a socialist; all I want is the best training for the lads and lasses who are soon to be sent in harms way. Now, if that comes at a cost, then it is a price that must be paid. If we are to place an incentive to get the QHI’s through the door, it will most likely be financial in its origin. We promote REME technicians as far as Sgt in order that we can pay them the required amount to compete with civilian trades. So do we offer promotion to QHI’s and run the risk of over promoting unsuitable leaders, but pay them a higher amount, or do we give them a higher rate of flying pay, I do believe that parachute instructors get instructor rates of para pay!
We all know how long, costly and rewarding the QHI course is. If we can train AI’s to deliver the same quality of training at a fraction of the price, then fine. But so far I am yet to be convinced, something has to give, and unfortunately it is quite often the quality, there are exceptions, I accept. What I do know is this. The demands on our people are increasing, and the rewards seem harder to find. There was a time when quality flying was reward enough, but CH47 escorts in Helmand (and I know B Flt, 18 Sqn RAF, thought they didn’t need them) and currency flying in LFA 10 just don’t cut it any more.
So, the demands on our leadership increase as well. If there isn’t adequate compensation for effort and sacrifice then the current trend of voting with feet will continue.
There, thread creep complete.
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Tom,
An accurate and eloquent assessment. Glad that you recognised that the problem also exists within Army FW.
You're obviously no longer the thick northern monkey that I remember from Wallop!
MM
An accurate and eloquent assessment. Glad that you recognised that the problem also exists within Army FW.
You're obviously no longer the thick northern monkey that I remember from Wallop!
MM
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I think that you are all correct but the point, forces wide, is that we are not valued enough to encourage the young blood to either apply or go for the A2. Young blood is not interested in extra responsibility when there is fun to be had.
I am old now (probably always was) and can see the benefits, a jump start for the less enlightened might be just what we need. I fear that it will be me and possibly one other left in a few years, great for promotion but soul destroying – I even looked over the fence last week – grass in no less green in my opinion!!!
By the way, AIs are great but we need to at least get the LSN/PID situation sorted so they can attract the rewards they deserve - how many AIs are out of role and not getting pay? Some I know. Give them the FRI for improvement, well, at least sort out how they can upgrade and then pay them - maybe another thread!!!
I am old now (probably always was) and can see the benefits, a jump start for the less enlightened might be just what we need. I fear that it will be me and possibly one other left in a few years, great for promotion but soul destroying – I even looked over the fence last week – grass in no less green in my opinion!!!
By the way, AIs are great but we need to at least get the LSN/PID situation sorted so they can attract the rewards they deserve - how many AIs are out of role and not getting pay? Some I know. Give them the FRI for improvement, well, at least sort out how they can upgrade and then pay them - maybe another thread!!!
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If it has not already happened, then it will be a sad day when individuals are ordered to attend the CFS Course. An instructor should be a volunteer and want to teach. The CFS Course rightly has international kudos and is far from an attendance tick in the box. Front line Sqns are strapped and can barely cope with the absent pilot/crewman attending a CFS Course.
However once the training system is diluted by bodged ideas and protocol, we really have reached the end of the line, and accidents will happen with individuals repeating flying procedures and techniques badly taught and based upon individual perception rather then syllabus based procedures. It is bad enough when a maverick QFI/QHI/QHCI is allowed by position of responsibility/authority to "Do it his way".
To get back to the point of the thread, the training system as we know it is dependent upon instructors who have the capacity to give a little bit extra. Who can diagnose the problems associated with an under achieving student and address them for the good of both the system and the student. Who can change procedures if the system is at fault whilst equally chopping a student who is a lost cause for whatever reason. That way the 'right stuff' get to do the job where it matters, and all human potential is realized.
I have seen at first hand the frustration of an individual who is A2 in all but log book/F5000 entry refuse to upgrade because of career management issues, who funny old thing, then got stabbed in the back by PMA and never will see his true potential realized. An 'incentive' of whatever means is needed to 'encourage' good B1 instructors to go the extra mile. A2 takes time & motivation and is bloody hard work, and at the present time is not rewarded at all beyond opening a few posting options.
Aircrew should under no circumstance be penalized for self improvement, and that it the ethos present at this time in the RAF Rotary world. It is time to turn the tide and reward effort with 'something' worth striving for: Whilst I would not agree that we are all lazy (previous poster), that perception is there if you choose to see it.
However once the training system is diluted by bodged ideas and protocol, we really have reached the end of the line, and accidents will happen with individuals repeating flying procedures and techniques badly taught and based upon individual perception rather then syllabus based procedures. It is bad enough when a maverick QFI/QHI/QHCI is allowed by position of responsibility/authority to "Do it his way".
To get back to the point of the thread, the training system as we know it is dependent upon instructors who have the capacity to give a little bit extra. Who can diagnose the problems associated with an under achieving student and address them for the good of both the system and the student. Who can change procedures if the system is at fault whilst equally chopping a student who is a lost cause for whatever reason. That way the 'right stuff' get to do the job where it matters, and all human potential is realized.
I have seen at first hand the frustration of an individual who is A2 in all but log book/F5000 entry refuse to upgrade because of career management issues, who funny old thing, then got stabbed in the back by PMA and never will see his true potential realized. An 'incentive' of whatever means is needed to 'encourage' good B1 instructors to go the extra mile. A2 takes time & motivation and is bloody hard work, and at the present time is not rewarded at all beyond opening a few posting options.
Aircrew should under no circumstance be penalized for self improvement, and that it the ethos present at this time in the RAF Rotary world. It is time to turn the tide and reward effort with 'something' worth striving for: Whilst I would not agree that we are all lazy (previous poster), that perception is there if you choose to see it.
but CH47 escorts in Helmand (and I know B Flt, 18 Sqn RAF, thought they didn’t need them)
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MGD. A cheap shot, sorry. I know that a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since the naive days back in early 2006. A the risk of sounding like a mutual back patting, I think you'll find all AH drivers have great respect for the job you lads do in those 47's. 
Tom
Tom
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OZ QFI's
Get this if you want to be a QFI (QHI) in OZ and you do not have any ROSO it will cost the individual. They will take a hit in the pay packet! Thousands of $$.
That will have them beating the door down in Oakey.
That will have them beating the door down in Oakey.
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More pay for A2 QFIs?
This may have been mentioned already but why should A2 training dinosaurs get paid more than a front line fast jet QWI? The course is much harder and requires a pretty sharp handle on all the latest punchy stuff. QWIs don't have any financial incentive at all! (to my knowledge!)
bpster - I think the point of this thread is that all Q qualifications should attract financial reward since there is no incentive other than professional pride to be a QHI/QFI/QWI/QHCI. This practise is not reflected in the civilian world where extra skills cost extra money.
There are plenty of CR pilots/rearcrew in crewrooms around the world who get paid the same as their instructors/trainers/trappers which really isn't fair when you consider the extra work and reponsibility those posts entail.
There are plenty of CR pilots/rearcrew in crewrooms around the world who get paid the same as their instructors/trainers/trappers which really isn't fair when you consider the extra work and reponsibility those posts entail.
Surely the arguement is not just about rewarding or incentivising (sp?) the Q qualification, in particular the more experienced, but retention as well. In the same way that flying pay is meant to keep us all happy in our work and not jump ship when the going gets tough.
Chinook 240,
I think the hackneyed explanation is that acquiring "Q" ticks is a JO's path to promotion - and that is sufficient "reward" in itself. The PA spine is supposed to reward those that tread a different path, and this is where it's tricky. How do you retain a 42 year old PA F/L or S/L who's got all the ticks and is now utterly fed up on the Ops treadmill? With a decent pension waiting the siren song of civvie street (and the nagging of the nagger!) can lead to this experienced Q cadre leaving. Perhaps more pervasive though is the lack of genuine rest tours and the fact that much of the "fun" flying has evaporated. In our world, throw in the fact that many of the older guys have bought property before the boom and have subsequently smaller mortgages. I think that this problem will really bite as the current crop near their IPP at 38, esp when we exit the recession....
I think the hackneyed explanation is that acquiring "Q" ticks is a JO's path to promotion - and that is sufficient "reward" in itself. The PA spine is supposed to reward those that tread a different path, and this is where it's tricky. How do you retain a 42 year old PA F/L or S/L who's got all the ticks and is now utterly fed up on the Ops treadmill? With a decent pension waiting the siren song of civvie street (and the nagging of the nagger!) can lead to this experienced Q cadre leaving. Perhaps more pervasive though is the lack of genuine rest tours and the fact that much of the "fun" flying has evaporated. In our world, throw in the fact that many of the older guys have bought property before the boom and have subsequently smaller mortgages. I think that this problem will really bite as the current crop near their IPP at 38, esp when we exit the recession....
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bpstr, get over your ego - as an A2 I will be more than happy to pick you up in the Op theatres if your Tonka toy gets into trouble, as I and many of my A2 colleagues will. Maybe it is your very small and parochial career pool that are dinosaurs - on the whole the rest of us DO work for our PA!!
angelorange,
I hope that posting a response to your question doesn't cause too much distraction from the ensuing trivial pursuits. The total package at the moment adds up to about £60K. If you ring the man named in the job advertisement, he can give you the exact breakdown and advise how it may be affected by your own circumstances (possible pension abatement etc).
I hope that posting a response to your question doesn't cause too much distraction from the ensuing trivial pursuits. The total package at the moment adds up to about £60K. If you ring the man named in the job advertisement, he can give you the exact breakdown and advise how it may be affected by your own circumstances (possible pension abatement etc).