Changes to ATPL Military Exemptions?

[74247]

I have heard all the rumors, anyone have the detail on the upcoming changes to ATPL Military Exemptions and when they are coming into effect?
Cheers

[Alex Whittingham]

There's no detail and, more worryingly, there is conflicting information coming from the CAA and from the EASA flight crew licensing committee. The CAA take the view that EASA rules allow for military exemptions and they expect no immediate change when EASA take over in April 09. One of the two UK reps on the EASA FCL committee is adamant that military exemptions will disappear in April 09. I'm expecting some clarification in April following an EASA FCL meeting in Cologne.

[Backwards PLT]

Alex

Could you post any further info on this mil forum, please, as and when you get it. A lot of mil guys post or lurk here, but not so many read the other forums.

Thanks

ps Bristol rock - I suggest anyone who hasn't should start with them now, just in case.

[Safety_Helmut]

You could even look here:
http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315783&highlight=civil

S_H

[mitsubishi]

Hi guys

Worrying times it seems for those of us on the brink of being able to begin the military bridging process.

I know it's early days, and no-one is quite sure how us military pilots will be affected, but can anyone shed any light on how far you have to be through your military bridging package in order to complete it under the new EASA rules?

If the wrong information is spread, there could be mass panic and a surge of military bridging applications to Bristol GS and the like!

Would appreciate some feedback.

Thanks

[BEagle]

1. EASA has not yet taken over competency for licensing.

2. The CAA view is: "The requirements for credit for military service are in the draft covering regulation on pilot licensing, not Part FCL which is Annex 1 to that document. It requires the national authority to decide what credit will be given, and furnish a report to EASA. We do not anticipate any change to our current arrangements."

3. Unfortunately all the confusion stems from statements made by a UK 'industry' rep on the FCL001 group which are at variance to the views held by the CAA reps on the same group..... So if they are confused, what hope is there for the rest of us?

[mitsubishi]

Beags

Thanks very much for your input. I guess I (we) need to wait out to see how things pan out over the next 12 months. Bit worrying though - if people think the bridging will disappear, there will be a big rush to get it done, and possibly cause a false sense of everyone jumping the sinking ship....

[Chicken Leg]

If the wrong information is spread, there could be mass panic and a surge of military bridging applications to Bristol GS and the like!

I'm sure Alex will cope!

Bit worrying though - if people think the bridging will disappear, there will be a big rush to get it done, and possibly cause a false sense of everyone jumping the sinking ship....

But there is no retention problem........and recruiting is up too!

[Alex Whittingham]

I'm pleased to say there have been some positive developments. Following the meeting in Cologne the EASA rep who originally said military bridging would be likely to stop now agrees that it should be able to continue substantially unchanged when EASA take over - providing the UK CAA make a case for the exemption with EASA before April 09. The CAA policy department are also talking to the three services to try and get agreement to lower some of the hours limits. I'll let you know if I hear anything more.

[Backwards PLT]

Thanks for the update - Exeter in the New Year still planned, though!

[BEagle]

Alex, yes, I think he realised that his understanding was at variance with that of his CAA colleagues...... And not just over this.

One aspect which the CAA should change immediately is the definition of 'QSP'. I manged to get it changed at PPL level; however, the current definition at CPL/ATPL level is unreasonable as it requires the pilot to have achieved Combat Ready (or equivalent) status. Which is a very high level of achievement.

I consider that, for CPL/ATPL QSP accreditation, the definition should be that the pilot has been awarded 'Wings' and has successfully completed Advanced Flying Training.

The 2000TT/1500PIC (of which 500 may be PICU/S) for LASORS D3.3 'Experienced QSP' accreditation does seem rather high for non-ME pilots. Perhaps it should be reviewed to make it simply 1000 PIC on military aircraft?

[abbotyobs]

I agree the 2000 hours qualifying total for FJ pilots, is too high, I know a few 16/38 yr old pilots who may not make it and are on the cusp of not getting mil exemptions. This may be even more difficult to achieve in the future with further emphasis placed on synthetic training and perhaps less airborne time. What about the FJ chaps that will do a tour on UAV, it is happening in the US with first tour FJ pilots getting UAV straight after pilot training, F16 pilots flying UAV for their second tour etc.
Some euro nations use 1500 hrs for qualifying for the mil exemptions, this is more reasonable and is in line with the hours required for ATPL.
Therefore 1500 hrs should be used in the future I think.

[A and C]

A large number of "if's & but's" from EASA so If you are in any doubt about the credit that you are going to get for your military flying I would make a move towards the civil licences sooner rather than later.

Cheap advice and flying time can be had at any of the RAF flying clubs as well as a few useful contacts from the world of civil aviation.

The sting can be taken out of the cost of civil flying by the low rates charged by RAF clubs and using the aircraft for leasure.......... the other half is a lot less question the expense if you take her for lunch in Le Touquet or a weekend in Jersey.

[Heywood Djablowme]

I consider that, for CPL/ATPL QSP accreditation, the definition should be that the pilot has been awarded 'Wings' and has successfully completed Advanced Flying Training.

BEagle, is it not the case that one's wings are only "ironed on forever" upon reaching CR status? It would seem that the CAA definition of QSP comes from the service's own rules regarding the retention of the flying badge.

[Sloppy Link]

QSP also requires you have had a Standards entry and an IRT in the last 12 months, ie: leave the Services in current military flying practice. If you cannot meet this criteria, you are not awarded QSP status. Another gem I picked up on, your licence can be issued on a military type but if you wish to renew, it has to be a small list of acceptable aircraft that are on the civil register. In short, needs to be on a training aircraft. Hurrumph.

[Eight Eights Blue]

I read with interest about the amount of hours required for licencing and was wondering whether that is being applied to types as well. 350 hrs on ME seems a bit harsh compared with a civvy type rating which is only about 8 hours max and in most cases lower. surely if your current on type and have a CFS Agent tick in the box then that should suffice to get that type on your CPL. Any suggestion are welcome.

[BEagle]

Don't forget that the TT experience requirement obviates the theoretical knowledge examination requirements to a large degree.

The accreditation is also intended to be a recruiting and retention incentive.

[GipsyMagpie]

SH-tastic

Funny to think FJ mates could finish a career without reaching the required hours. No chance of that on SH! Should end up about half way to 16 year point with more than enough hours! And of course sim hours count too (to the limit of 500 hrs of course).

[artyhug]

Abbotyobs, are you genuinely serious? 16/38 point with less than 2000 hrs TT?? Having got there in less than 12 on one of the FJ fleets with the poorest levels of serviceability then I'd respectfully suggest that perhaps certain members of our fraternity should get there heads out of the PMC's backside...

After all, if after all that snouting at the cost of doing their primary role they haven't got on the career ladder they so earnestly desire then why should the rest of us who, happily I may add, snaffle the hours they refuse to fly due to secondary duty commitments be penalised by having to work with the cnuts in civvy street for the next 20 years too.....

[Farm-for-sale]

So many Panda cubs, I'm having to drown them in the sink.. someone please help!?

Artyhug,

Interesting approach of yours that... I did 7 yrs front-line FJ and never passed up a jot of flying but here I am, through fail means and foul, approaching 16/38 with JUST the 2000 needed. Some guys get pushed to staff jobs and UAVs and then heaven forfend what else, WITHOUT a sniff of said PMC. Maybe you didn't end up doing some AWC job for 4 years watching the clock tick down, but don't kick the poor b@gger in the crotch just because you jammed another flying tour out of it. Just my tuppence.

Cheers

Farm (and Panda cubs) for sale