JPA and their appalling administrating
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It took a long haul and 8 Months to get my pay right when I crossed over from the lower pay band to the higher ground trades pay band, I to got caught in the vicious circle of doom between JPAC and SHQ and back to JPAC again. Finally got there in the end. I now am dreading the end of April this year, as I was due to retire from the service at my 22 year point, but have just signed on for an extra year of continuance of service. So what odds would you give that JPA kicks me out at the end of April with a big fat pay out and pension that at some point I will have to repay
Any body else out there been in this position? and what action was taken to recover monies owed etc.. Any help gratefully received.
Zofo
Any body else out there been in this position? and what action was taken to recover monies owed etc.. Any help gratefully received.Zofo
HeliAviator,
I have much sympathy. JPA (wrongly) stopped paying me my flying pay in Sep 07. It has been the subject of numerous phones calls, i-supports, lots of hard work from my P staff and much wasted time on my part. I got so fed up that I submitted a formal complaint - but still haven't received a reply!! I asked for interest to be paid on the money they owed me through their error. No interest was forthcoming
but I have at last been paid the back pay 
I cannot believe that the hierachy believe that there are only small insignificant problems with the system.
I have much sympathy. JPA (wrongly) stopped paying me my flying pay in Sep 07. It has been the subject of numerous phones calls, i-supports, lots of hard work from my P staff and much wasted time on my part. I got so fed up that I submitted a formal complaint - but still haven't received a reply!! I asked for interest to be paid on the money they owed me through their error. No interest was forthcoming
but I have at last been paid the back pay I cannot believe that the hierachy believe that there are only small insignificant problems with the system.
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An army Major at my old unit PVR'd, then changed his mind and decided to stay on. Unfortunately for him, JPA seemed unable to compute and effectively kicked him out (first he knew was when he got a pay statement for zero squids).
The only way the muppets at the JPAC have been able to (eventually) sort him out and get him back onto the system is to give him a new service number!
Hate to be him come pension time
The only way the muppets at the JPAC have been able to (eventually) sort him out and get him back onto the system is to give him a new service number!
Hate to be him come pension time
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If everyone in this thread made a commitment to contact for instance, BBC Watchdog, I'll bet you that in the next series, you'd see some JPA civvy or some Airship sitting in front of JockNick, trying to explain why charities, messageboards and minority pressure groups are doing more for servicemen right now, than the people who employ them.
The FSA and the OFT have taken the banks to court now, there's nothing they'd like more than have a flagship campaign like this take its place. What a scalp. It has everything. Brown, crap housing, the Civil Service, troops not getting paid (remember the amazement when the Soviets stopped paying their military? It'd be the same all over again), more Generals, Admirals and Air Marshalls than battalions, warships and sqns, Tommy v's the Brass and echos of lions lead by donkeys.
And if you're reading this, and if you're the
responsible for this debacle, or if your career is going to be affected by this when it all gets out as part of a consumer bias single issue, I suggest you start earning your money pronto and begin putting your troops first. Call it.. arse covering. Never let it be said you haven't had a final warning.
The FSA and the OFT have taken the banks to court now, there's nothing they'd like more than have a flagship campaign like this take its place. What a scalp. It has everything. Brown, crap housing, the Civil Service, troops not getting paid (remember the amazement when the Soviets stopped paying their military? It'd be the same all over again), more Generals, Admirals and Air Marshalls than battalions, warships and sqns, Tommy v's the Brass and echos of lions lead by donkeys.
And if you're reading this, and if you're the
responsible for this debacle, or if your career is going to be affected by this when it all gets out as part of a consumer bias single issue, I suggest you start earning your money pronto and begin putting your troops first. Call it.. arse covering. Never let it be said you haven't had a final warning.
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Al R nice post 
BlackadderIA Jeepers like you say pension is going to be a minefield for that poor Major, I hope that I dont have to remember a second service number. It took me long enough to remember the first
BlackadderIA Jeepers like you say pension is going to be a minefield for that poor Major, I hope that I dont have to remember a second service number. It took me long enough to remember the first
Just beating the air into submission!
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I was unaware when starting this thread about JPAC and flying pay just how many where affected, I considered that the matter could be the tip of an iceberg, but not the scale. Leaving flying pay aside for a moment, your average Tommy (if there is such a person) must be having the same frustrations and lack of service over basic pay and allowances, I know that many of my juniors and seniors are. It is time for this agency to undergo a full root, trunk and branch review. They clearly do not or can not interpret the regulations governing military pay with any clarity.
Al R, nice post m8 and I think an email to BBC Watchdog might be forthcoming to guage their feeling on the matter.
Despite JPAC best efforts to stall for time until the end of Feb, I will still press ahead for the small claims court judgment of which I am 99% certain of attaining a positive result for the full amount owed, the court fee and interest. Failure to pay by JPAC in a timely manner will result in the debt owed to me sold on to a debt recovery firm, who will add their fees and turn up with bailiffs if they don't pay. It unlikely but I would love to see the bailiffs walking out the door with a few dozen computers under their arm.
Al R, nice post m8 and I think an email to BBC Watchdog might be forthcoming to guage their feeling on the matter.
Despite JPAC best efforts to stall for time until the end of Feb, I will still press ahead for the small claims court judgment of which I am 99% certain of attaining a positive result for the full amount owed, the court fee and interest. Failure to pay by JPAC in a timely manner will result in the debt owed to me sold on to a debt recovery firm, who will add their fees and turn up with bailiffs if they don't pay. It unlikely but I would love to see the bailiffs walking out the door with a few dozen computers under their arm.
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Personaly I have to report that JPA has, thus far, been a success. I have on the whole been paid something approaching the right amount and they even remembered that I got promoted!
However, I have seen many examples of cockups, enough to realise that all is not well outside of my fortunate experience. There are however I suspect other culprits other than JPA.
In my location the light-blue PSF staff have been absolutly usless and achieved the square root of fcuk all in the many months of machinations over a friends pay. Were I charitable then I might allow that it wasn't entirely their fault however the manner in which they have 'dealt' with the problem has been atrocious in all respects.
It is possible that they themselves have had major difficulty with JPA and are at the end of their tether but nevertheless, there must be a way to bypass the system. Christ, were it me and my job and some cnut at JPAC kept cocking up someones pay despite my best efforts I'd be pissed on behalf of the guy/gal I was trying to help. I wouldnt want to explain to someone for the sixth month in a row that 'it has been sorted now for next month...' I'd be leaving a note on the boss' desk and taking a car up to meet the idiots at JPAC and inform them of the error of their ways! More importantly I'd be seeking a workable solution to plug the short-term problem and a longer-term fix too.
I am no fan of JPA, I think it a seriously ****e system, however I think the root of some problems may be found closer to home.
How to improve it? The system should permit good old human inputs and the ability to perform emergency payments quickly to make up shortfalls. It is unacceptable for anyone to be underpaid for a month but it is enevitable and people accept that. What is wrong is the time taken to correct it and the complete lack of urgencey to give people what they are owed. Those who do get 'advances' to cover what is really theirs anyway are treated as theives and have to sign forms to promise they wont run away with it - it's their bloody money surely! There are also far too many people not being paid at all one month in order to recover debts (surprisingly effecient there then!) - even worse around xmas as mentioned; this is entirely wrong and SHOULD NOT HAPPEN - make it manageable, spread it out, do NOT land your men and women with bank charges and poor credit ratings, it is not the route to productvity.
WHY can someone not grip the system and get it sorted out? If the computer says 'no' then create a work-around for that situation and allow it to be used, even if it involves paper and entering details later when the computer is fixed - it seems the computer is allowed to run out of control and mere humans are not fit to question it - cart before horse? If one month is buggered up allow the balance to be transfered mid-month, not delayed to the next only to find it is still wrong - the month long cycle is morale destroying for those unfortunate enough to have problems and leads directly to the long periods of underpayment we have all seen.
Im going to calm down and stop, one last thought... If a junior officer treated his/her soldiers/airmen/ratings in the way that JPAC and the system at large treated everyone then they would quite rightly be hauled over the coals... perhaps if there are any senior officers in a position to improve matters they might like to think about what corrective advise they might give to an erring junior officer and then reflect. Swearing till blue in the face that the system is fine when it patently is not is an excellent way of loosing everyones respect.
However, I have seen many examples of cockups, enough to realise that all is not well outside of my fortunate experience. There are however I suspect other culprits other than JPA.
In my location the light-blue PSF staff have been absolutly usless and achieved the square root of fcuk all in the many months of machinations over a friends pay. Were I charitable then I might allow that it wasn't entirely their fault however the manner in which they have 'dealt' with the problem has been atrocious in all respects.
It is possible that they themselves have had major difficulty with JPA and are at the end of their tether but nevertheless, there must be a way to bypass the system. Christ, were it me and my job and some cnut at JPAC kept cocking up someones pay despite my best efforts I'd be pissed on behalf of the guy/gal I was trying to help. I wouldnt want to explain to someone for the sixth month in a row that 'it has been sorted now for next month...' I'd be leaving a note on the boss' desk and taking a car up to meet the idiots at JPAC and inform them of the error of their ways! More importantly I'd be seeking a workable solution to plug the short-term problem and a longer-term fix too.
I am no fan of JPA, I think it a seriously ****e system, however I think the root of some problems may be found closer to home.
How to improve it? The system should permit good old human inputs and the ability to perform emergency payments quickly to make up shortfalls. It is unacceptable for anyone to be underpaid for a month but it is enevitable and people accept that. What is wrong is the time taken to correct it and the complete lack of urgencey to give people what they are owed. Those who do get 'advances' to cover what is really theirs anyway are treated as theives and have to sign forms to promise they wont run away with it - it's their bloody money surely! There are also far too many people not being paid at all one month in order to recover debts (surprisingly effecient there then!) - even worse around xmas as mentioned; this is entirely wrong and SHOULD NOT HAPPEN - make it manageable, spread it out, do NOT land your men and women with bank charges and poor credit ratings, it is not the route to productvity.
WHY can someone not grip the system and get it sorted out? If the computer says 'no' then create a work-around for that situation and allow it to be used, even if it involves paper and entering details later when the computer is fixed - it seems the computer is allowed to run out of control and mere humans are not fit to question it - cart before horse? If one month is buggered up allow the balance to be transfered mid-month, not delayed to the next only to find it is still wrong - the month long cycle is morale destroying for those unfortunate enough to have problems and leads directly to the long periods of underpayment we have all seen.
Im going to calm down and stop, one last thought... If a junior officer treated his/her soldiers/airmen/ratings in the way that JPAC and the system at large treated everyone then they would quite rightly be hauled over the coals... perhaps if there are any senior officers in a position to improve matters they might like to think about what corrective advise they might give to an erring junior officer and then reflect. Swearing till blue in the face that the system is fine when it patently is not is an excellent way of loosing everyones respect.
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Might be a bit off the mark,but we just received money at the end of Decembers pay packet for money that was due to us in the gulf 6 months earlier. Not like 1 person we are speaking over 50 guys , thats an awfull lot of interest and it just makes you think that they do this deliberate. It sux and its another thing thats lead to the downfall of the UK military , JPA
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The Armed Forces pay system would run better if a couple of monkeys were handing out the money. 
Coming from Africa, I have first hand experience on monkeys' abilities!
I got sent out to the Far East in October. Since then I have yet to get the proper pay that is entitled to me, 2 types of LOA and LSSA. On top of that some how I owe the RAF £3000
?! No one has been able to tell me yet why I owe £3000! This not helping when I have to live out! Due to this Fk up I went overdrawn on one account, which landed me with a nice little £50 bank charge. Then there is the credit card bills and interest I am racking up because it is the only way I can afford living where I do!
God help the guy who introduced JPA if I ever meet him. I will revert back to my army days and kick his bloody head in!
Coming from Africa, I have first hand experience on monkeys' abilities!I got sent out to the Far East in October. Since then I have yet to get the proper pay that is entitled to me, 2 types of LOA and LSSA. On top of that some how I owe the RAF £3000
?! No one has been able to tell me yet why I owe £3000! This not helping when I have to live out! Due to this Fk up I went overdrawn on one account, which landed me with a nice little £50 bank charge. Then there is the credit card bills and interest I am racking up because it is the only way I can afford living where I do!God help the guy who introduced JPA if I ever meet him. I will revert back to my army days and kick his bloody head in!
Something witty
I am pleased that you are indeed one of the more fortunate members of the Service, however I feel that I have to defend the P staffs on this one (not something I would normally do, but it's only when you lose something that you realise how useful it was)
Unfortunately the new system does not allow anyone to bypass it. Not the P staffs, not the JPA call centre staff, not even (if my case is to be used as an example) the JPA "Back Room" staff - you know, the ones you really need to speak to but can't e-mail direct or phone direct.
If anyone on the JPA management is reading this I am still waiting a formal response from my formal complaints from last year. I know its only been about 7 or 8 weeks since I submitted them but I haven't even received an acknowledgement!!
I am pleased that you are indeed one of the more fortunate members of the Service, however I feel that I have to defend the P staffs on this one (not something I would normally do, but it's only when you lose something that you realise how useful it was)
It is possible that they themselves have had major difficulty with JPA and are at the end of their tether but nevertheless, there must be a way to bypass the system.
If anyone on the JPA management is reading this I am still waiting a formal response from my formal complaints from last year. I know its only been about 7 or 8 weeks since I submitted them but I haven't even received an acknowledgement!!
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MoD defends personnel system
This snippet appears on page 4 of the January issue of Government Computing magazine:--
“MOD defends personnel system
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has blamed payroll errors on its staff’s unfamiliarity with the Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) system.
The JPA was delivered by EDS and handles complex payments and allowances of the armed forces, 300,000 staff across the RAF, the Navy and the Army. They joined the system in April 2006, October 2006 and April 2007 respectively.
The MoD confirmed that between April and August this year38,529 service members were wrongly paid. But it said the system was working well and put the problem down to human error.
“ There are no widespread or systematic problems with the new JPA system, “ a spokesperson told GC. “ Input errors based on a degree of unfamiliarity with the new scheme have resulted in a small number of pay inaccuracies, and measures have been taken to provide additional training for HR administrators to prevent further problems.”
He added that accuracy rates since the full JPA roll out in April have averaged 99.3% and just 263 people were underpaid during October this year.
The spokesperson also insisted that if payments were not authorised within a certain time limit, they were automatically directed to a second line of authorisation.
He said: “JPA is a relatively new system which requires accurate and timely input from individual service personnel and HR administrators. As with anything new, a degree of unfamiliarity with both the system and the processes which support JPA has lead to input errors, which in turn has affected pay accuracy.” "
Link here.
“MOD defends personnel system
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has blamed payroll errors on its staff’s unfamiliarity with the Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) system.
The JPA was delivered by EDS and handles complex payments and allowances of the armed forces, 300,000 staff across the RAF, the Navy and the Army. They joined the system in April 2006, October 2006 and April 2007 respectively.
The MoD confirmed that between April and August this year38,529 service members were wrongly paid. But it said the system was working well and put the problem down to human error.
“ There are no widespread or systematic problems with the new JPA system, “ a spokesperson told GC. “ Input errors based on a degree of unfamiliarity with the new scheme have resulted in a small number of pay inaccuracies, and measures have been taken to provide additional training for HR administrators to prevent further problems.”
He added that accuracy rates since the full JPA roll out in April have averaged 99.3% and just 263 people were underpaid during October this year.
The spokesperson also insisted that if payments were not authorised within a certain time limit, they were automatically directed to a second line of authorisation.
He said: “JPA is a relatively new system which requires accurate and timely input from individual service personnel and HR administrators. As with anything new, a degree of unfamiliarity with both the system and the processes which support JPA has lead to input errors, which in turn has affected pay accuracy.” "
Link here.
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Related and relevant story in Scotland this morning - mods please redirect if wrong thread.
M
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news...ort_troops.php
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/...our_forces.php
M
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news...ort_troops.php
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/...our_forces.php
Last edited by mustpost; 16th Jan 2008 at 08:58. Reason: Added editorial
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Anybody thought about asking a well phrased Freedom of Information question of JPAC involving the cases mentioned above??
If they dont answer within 21 days they are breaking the law. Just a thought.
If they dont answer within 21 days they are breaking the law. Just a thought.
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Cpt Pugwash,
When they say HR Administrators, does that mean the JPAC or our RAF admin colleagues? If the latter, then based on Roland Pulfrew's clarification that they can't change anything, how are they supposed to be the ones doing the input?
When they say HR Administrators, does that mean the JPAC or our RAF admin colleagues? If the latter, then based on Roland Pulfrew's clarification that they can't change anything, how are they supposed to be the ones doing the input?
JPA
My proudest achievement since the inception of JPA has to be the day one of the JPAC staff lodged a complaint against ME!
After nearly 14 months of trying to resolve a flying pay related issue, one of my service requests wasn't phrased as politely as perhaps it should have been. The poor little poppet in Glasgow got a little upset and went running to mummy. Thankfully, like everything else in their pathetic, retarded little world, I never heard anything else about it!
BV
After nearly 14 months of trying to resolve a flying pay related issue, one of my service requests wasn't phrased as politely as perhaps it should have been. The poor little poppet in Glasgow got a little upset and went running to mummy. Thankfully, like everything else in their pathetic, retarded little world, I never heard anything else about it!
BV
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When JPA was initially introduced, I was in the Falklands, and on my return to blighty, JPA still said I was "down south" for months after!
Consequently, I was still being paid allowances that I was not due!
Luckily I noticed, and saved the overpaid amount, but after a few (unsuccesful) attempts to get JPAC to do something about it, the situation was righted, but I'm sure many will be able to pre-empt what came next ... Yup, a deduction from my pay in a few large lumps for a few months, leaving my pay packet looking very pathetic indeed.
I am so glad to see that after nearly 2 years of this system messing people's pay and allowances around, they finally sorted it ... NOT!
Bring back SAMA I say!
PS- IDD in a few weeks! I wonder if I'll get it on time?!
Consequently, I was still being paid allowances that I was not due!
Luckily I noticed, and saved the overpaid amount, but after a few (unsuccesful) attempts to get JPAC to do something about it, the situation was righted, but I'm sure many will be able to pre-empt what came next ... Yup, a deduction from my pay in a few large lumps for a few months, leaving my pay packet looking very pathetic indeed.
I am so glad to see that after nearly 2 years of this system messing people's pay and allowances around, they finally sorted it ... NOT!
Bring back SAMA I say!
PS- IDD in a few weeks! I wonder if I'll get it on time?!
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So far I've been overcharged over 3 grand for something and underpaid over a grand for something else - I have had nothing back.
Unfortunately, the act of parliament that protects most people from this sort of fiasco appears to be the Employment Rights Act 1996, but all Crown employees are specifically exempt from most of it - including the bit about getting paid - either on time, the right amount, or even at all.
The only place I can see the law actually being broken is that pay statements have to be provided no later than payday - which is not happening.
However, we might be covered under some other regulation regarding money owed. I hear there is a C/T at ISK who has taken JPAC to court about 5 times so far - and won every time. Anyone able to track him down?
Good luck to everyone else affected.
Unfortunately, the act of parliament that protects most people from this sort of fiasco appears to be the Employment Rights Act 1996, but all Crown employees are specifically exempt from most of it - including the bit about getting paid - either on time, the right amount, or even at all.
The only place I can see the law actually being broken is that pay statements have to be provided no later than payday - which is not happening.
However, we might be covered under some other regulation regarding money owed. I hear there is a C/T at ISK who has taken JPAC to court about 5 times so far - and won every time. Anyone able to track him down?
Good luck to everyone else affected.
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Well this thread makes for cheery reading
Anyway, I am due to go from Medium Rate Flying Pay to High Rate in April. Anything I can do to pre-empt a successful changeover on JPA or do I merely sit tight and hope it all goes OK?
Anyway, I am due to go from Medium Rate Flying Pay to High Rate in April. Anything I can do to pre-empt a successful changeover on JPA or do I merely sit tight and hope it all goes OK?