BBC - Army "losing battalion" to drugs
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Nice one goudie - another priceless comment; I thought your reply (124) on the F3 Thread was a real cracker - the only Google search on the matter comes straight back to you - AA
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Alcohol is the common counter-argument but I think there is a significant distinction. Most people can use alcohol in a safe, controlled way, maybe get a little tipsy in the bar, but then sleep it off and turn up to work fresh as a daisy. In those cases where people overdo it and turn up to work p1ssed or incapable due to a hangover (or don't turn up at all) then they should rightly be disciplined - and I know of cases of that happening.
Most illegal drugs on the other hand, leave the users' abilities impaired for some significant time after use. I recall from RAFCAM briefings that cannabis use causes impaired coordination, reactions and decision making for about a week. LSD can cause all sorts of mental problems for years after use. Many drugs cannot be used in any sort of controlled way due to their addictive nature and will inevitably destroy the user and spiral out of control. Apart from these issues is the fact that a drug user is voluntarily a law breaker: is that compatible with the ethos and standards of military life?
I really do not think any sort of tolerance or leniency is the answer to the drugs issue. Such action seems to me much like the police and govt's policy of improving crime figures by decriminalizing everything and fixing the stats. It is ironic that these days booze and fags seem to be more of a crime than e's and 'erb.
Most illegal drugs on the other hand, leave the users' abilities impaired for some significant time after use. I recall from RAFCAM briefings that cannabis use causes impaired coordination, reactions and decision making for about a week. LSD can cause all sorts of mental problems for years after use. Many drugs cannot be used in any sort of controlled way due to their addictive nature and will inevitably destroy the user and spiral out of control. Apart from these issues is the fact that a drug user is voluntarily a law breaker: is that compatible with the ethos and standards of military life?
I really do not think any sort of tolerance or leniency is the answer to the drugs issue. Such action seems to me much like the police and govt's policy of improving crime figures by decriminalizing everything and fixing the stats. It is ironic that these days booze and fags seem to be more of a crime than e's and 'erb.
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cannabis use causes impaired coordination, reactions and decision making for about a week
Military life can be tough enough on the individual without inducing more problems.
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...........chill out dude.......
I was surprised when having left the Corps, my mate listed off how many blokes in my last troop did E, grass or coke.
I was very surprised that I had never heard about it, even though I had hoped that I was a 'main' member of the troop. He said that although I got on very well with those blokes, the reason that I never caught on or that I never guessed was that it was a very secretive thing and if you werent into it then you just didn't know about it.
I have to admit that I was pretty disapointed that blokes i relied upon were doing this. Ive tried the odd bit off grass since leaving but I was a civvie then. It's ok, and better than drink IMO, but I guess I'm too much of a square to take it up.
I was surprised when having left the Corps, my mate listed off how many blokes in my last troop did E, grass or coke.
I was very surprised that I had never heard about it, even though I had hoped that I was a 'main' member of the troop. He said that although I got on very well with those blokes, the reason that I never caught on or that I never guessed was that it was a very secretive thing and if you werent into it then you just didn't know about it.
I have to admit that I was pretty disapointed that blokes i relied upon were doing this. Ive tried the odd bit off grass since leaving but I was a civvie then. It's ok, and better than drink IMO, but I guess I'm too much of a square to take it up.
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Bladdered,
Goudie is (sadly) very right in what he says. There are a great many in the mob, both male and female, who use alcohol, in varying quanties, for both good and bad. It has always been a fairly endemic part of the culture and despite the regular campaigns to reduce its incidence, almost certainly will continue to be so.
Goudie is (sadly) very right in what he says. There are a great many in the mob, both male and female, who use alcohol, in varying quanties, for both good and bad. It has always been a fairly endemic part of the culture and despite the regular campaigns to reduce its incidence, almost certainly will continue to be so.
Cynical Slant?
Lots of interesting responses but no-one so far has wondered why, just when the Armed Forces have been getting lots of positive press and the Gov coming under pressure to heal the covenant, a story like this is released...........
Cynical, moi? No, heaven forbid.
Just for the record - I do not support the taking of Class A, B or C drugs.
Cynical, moi? No, heaven forbid.
Just for the record - I do not support the taking of Class A, B or C drugs.
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There was some army Major on the radio this morning talking about alcohol being the drug of choice, and speculating that the increase in drug taking was not only because the army is a microcosm of society in general but that incidents of drug taking had gone up because of ops... hmm...
Lyneham Lad - I too share your cynicism. As I dose up on paracetemol / ibruprofen and anything else I can raid - probably whisky - to stave off this cold before hitting the ground running again on Sunday, I have to wonder where this story comes from. No press release from the ivory tower of the MoD spin machine on their website (unless it's buried somewhere) and when was the last time that the media knew how big a battalion is?
Something not right.
Lyneham Lad - I too share your cynicism. As I dose up on paracetemol / ibruprofen and anything else I can raid - probably whisky - to stave off this cold before hitting the ground running again on Sunday, I have to wonder where this story comes from. No press release from the ivory tower of the MoD spin machine on their website (unless it's buried somewhere) and when was the last time that the media knew how big a battalion is?
Something not right.
Last edited by Lamenting Navigator; 14th Dec 2007 at 17:22. Reason: Long day staffing papers - forgotten how to spell
I can't help but feel that most people have missed the point here! increased Op Tempo, increased marriage breakdown, increased psychiatric referrals, increased positive results for CDT. I'm not normally a betting man, but I'll bet a Chinook Print that D&D is on the increase as well.
Why?
Because more and more people are witnessing and dealing with events that they are not trained to deal with, and the MOD support infrastucture is inadequate. The Can Do attitude is costing dear at the moment. Ask anyone involved with Combat Stress.
Not all cases are caused by the Op Tempo, but I bet the increase is.
Want to help, donate to Combat Stress. Wanna just explain it away as losers taking dope, type a reply
MGD
Why?
Because more and more people are witnessing and dealing with events that they are not trained to deal with, and the MOD support infrastucture is inadequate. The Can Do attitude is costing dear at the moment. Ask anyone involved with Combat Stress.
Not all cases are caused by the Op Tempo, but I bet the increase is.
Want to help, donate to Combat Stress. Wanna just explain it away as losers taking dope, type a reply
MGD
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I somehow suspect that the reference to soldiers taking drugs to circumvent the PVR route is added simply for dramatic effect in the article, either that or the soldiers in question are really crap at the statistical analysis invloved to calculate how long it will take you to;
(a) Start taking drugs.
(b) Get caught taking drugs by the CDT.
(c) Get thrown out for all of the above.
Much easier to sign on the line and wait one would think...
Just to add to the good old perennial of Booze versus Drugs, you can be a confirmed alchoholic and well on your way to an unpleasant and untimely demise without breaking a single law, whereas it is much harder to be a drug user without breaking laws or exposing yourself to the culture of crime associated with the purchase and use of drugs.
(a) Start taking drugs.
(b) Get caught taking drugs by the CDT.
(c) Get thrown out for all of the above.
Much easier to sign on the line and wait one would think...
Just to add to the good old perennial of Booze versus Drugs, you can be a confirmed alchoholic and well on your way to an unpleasant and untimely demise without breaking a single law, whereas it is much harder to be a drug user without breaking laws or exposing yourself to the culture of crime associated with the purchase and use of drugs.
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Heavy drinking is the chosen pastime for many Service people
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The Quote was MANY - not ALL. Define MANY. For some people, the term many may be a percentage as 'high' as 10%. Yes Alcohol is the choice of MANY. BUT who cares if you are not one of the many. Abstainence is also the choice of MANY.
The real point is: How will MoD manage the 'problem' - as opposed to using the BOOT.
The real point is: How will MoD manage the 'problem' - as opposed to using the BOOT.
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Abstainence is also the choice of MANY
Last edited by goudie; 14th Dec 2007 at 21:10. Reason: spelling
Historically, the military have been guilty of overdoing the vino collapso on a regular basis. Someone mentioned the days of RAFG, and my memories of Gutersloh are extremely hazy at times.
What amuses me, and throws water on the 'were all alcoholics camp' fire, is the fact that over the last 10 years, the civvy's are drinking more, and the military are drinking less.
Consider the amount of time we are spending in 'Dry areas' and the pressures of modern military life. I would say that in my part of the world, there are more duties, secondary duties, and night flying, with far less people to shoulder the burden.
Messes are a shadow of their former selves, as more and more people saddle themselves with mortgages and live off base. And although I can't back this up, the kids joining today seem much older and wiser than when I joined.
so, is alcohol a problem in today's military? Yes, but probably nowhere near as much as it was during the tax free RAFG years.
What amuses me, and throws water on the 'were all alcoholics camp' fire, is the fact that over the last 10 years, the civvy's are drinking more, and the military are drinking less.
Consider the amount of time we are spending in 'Dry areas' and the pressures of modern military life. I would say that in my part of the world, there are more duties, secondary duties, and night flying, with far less people to shoulder the burden.
Messes are a shadow of their former selves, as more and more people saddle themselves with mortgages and live off base. And although I can't back this up, the kids joining today seem much older and wiser than when I joined.
so, is alcohol a problem in today's military? Yes, but probably nowhere near as much as it was during the tax free RAFG years.
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Ah yes, the good old days of RAFG.
When I was just in, (and before my Aircrew days), there was a Bucc which crashed just outside Weeze, (1983 to be exact) and I will never, ever forget being sat in the mess next to a guy who, pissed and upon hearing the alarm, said "Well, Juliet WAS ( juliet being, of course, the aircraft)". It shocked me then, still shocks me now and was then and is to me at least still the epitome of casual, NIMBY drinking.
I have since seen, on a regular basis, kites pile in for various reasons. Alcohol is not normally counted as a factor, either from an Aircrew or Liney angle because of politics. What really, really galls me, is that there are still an incredible amount of guys who seem to regard 9 or 10 pints a night as a normal thing.
Discuss????
Lets face it, It is endemic, it is a problem and it does cause problems.
When I was just in, (and before my Aircrew days), there was a Bucc which crashed just outside Weeze, (1983 to be exact) and I will never, ever forget being sat in the mess next to a guy who, pissed and upon hearing the alarm, said "Well, Juliet WAS ( juliet being, of course, the aircraft)". It shocked me then, still shocks me now and was then and is to me at least still the epitome of casual, NIMBY drinking.
I have since seen, on a regular basis, kites pile in for various reasons. Alcohol is not normally counted as a factor, either from an Aircrew or Liney angle because of politics. What really, really galls me, is that there are still an incredible amount of guys who seem to regard 9 or 10 pints a night as a normal thing.
Discuss????
Lets face it, It is endemic, it is a problem and it does cause problems.
Last edited by Dan D'air; 15th Dec 2007 at 03:05.
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It's strange, how it's almost always the same voices that decry the "Destructive Alcohol Culture" allegedly pervading the Forces, are the same voices that espouse relaxation of the rules governing illegal drug use. Coincidence?
Aside from the effects of illegal drugs (the whole reason for them BEING illegal!), one cannot partake of them without commiting a serious offence - this alone is sufficient to maintain the strict standards that the Service(s) apply. For this reason, if no other, the perennial "Alcohol vs Drugs" argument is void IMHO.
Aside from the effects of illegal drugs (the whole reason for them BEING illegal!), one cannot partake of them without commiting a serious offence - this alone is sufficient to maintain the strict standards that the Service(s) apply. For this reason, if no other, the perennial "Alcohol vs Drugs" argument is void IMHO.
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I wonder how many of the positive drugs tests occur during initial training? It wouldn't take many people joining with the habit to impact significantly on the overall %age.
STH
STH
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I wonder how many of the positive drugs tests occur during initial training? It wouldn't take many people joining with the habit to impact significantly on the overall %age.
CivPol have just had CDT introduced - they are tested BEFORE being accepted.
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Hi! I hope that you don't mind me making a comment. I am a Police Officer and feel that my employers approach to drug testing is naive in the extreme. Whilst I feel that it is abhorrent for anyone in such a position to take an illegal drug, I fear that they will hardly ever catch the persons who do it.
This is because that the cozart drug testing that they use, analyses a swab of saliva which is fine if you have taken drugs VERY recently but they don't seem to realise that most class A drugs metabolise out of your system in as little as seven hours (for opiates) and up to 24hrs for Ecstacy and Cocaine. Cannabis is the worst one, which can last from 7 days to a month (if you are a heavy user). What this means is that if people are daft enough to use cannabis (Class C), then they get caught and booted out but if they use Class 'A' drugs, they will never get caught unless they are a proper addict or get tested after coming back to work straight away after a weekend on a 'bender', which is unlikely as we mainly work shifts and get several days off at a time. They don't even test for LSD.
The goverment also make us drug test people who are arrested for certain 'trigger' offences, presumably for statistical purposes which are very flawed in that not once have I ever seen someone test positive for Opitates, but nearly always for Cocaine. This is not because nobody takes Opiates, it's because the drug is nearly always out of their system at the time of the test. What a waste of time collecting such flawed statistics!!!!
You can test hair samples which remain contaminated for up to six months or maybe more but they don't have a power to take those as far as I know. Also, if you tell them that you have a drug issue (even just before the test) they don't boot you out and instead send you to occupational health (well, so they say but I don't exactly believe them!).
Each week, we get an internal notice which tells you about people who have retired, resigned or been kicked out of the job e.t.c. and how many people do you think have been chucked out for drugs since CDT was introduced?
NIL as far as I know. If someone did get caught for it, they would not be able to resist plastering it all over the intranet. Also, from looking back at the stats, there has been no marked increase in people being kicked out since the CDT was introduced so I can only assume that they simply don't catch anyone as even if it was all low key, the stats would have gone up!
In any case, I know of one guy who tested positive for cannabis and got away with it simply by saying that he "passively smoked" it.
Yeah right
This is because that the cozart drug testing that they use, analyses a swab of saliva which is fine if you have taken drugs VERY recently but they don't seem to realise that most class A drugs metabolise out of your system in as little as seven hours (for opiates) and up to 24hrs for Ecstacy and Cocaine. Cannabis is the worst one, which can last from 7 days to a month (if you are a heavy user). What this means is that if people are daft enough to use cannabis (Class C), then they get caught and booted out but if they use Class 'A' drugs, they will never get caught unless they are a proper addict or get tested after coming back to work straight away after a weekend on a 'bender', which is unlikely as we mainly work shifts and get several days off at a time. They don't even test for LSD.
The goverment also make us drug test people who are arrested for certain 'trigger' offences, presumably for statistical purposes which are very flawed in that not once have I ever seen someone test positive for Opitates, but nearly always for Cocaine. This is not because nobody takes Opiates, it's because the drug is nearly always out of their system at the time of the test. What a waste of time collecting such flawed statistics!!!!
You can test hair samples which remain contaminated for up to six months or maybe more but they don't have a power to take those as far as I know. Also, if you tell them that you have a drug issue (even just before the test) they don't boot you out and instead send you to occupational health (well, so they say but I don't exactly believe them!).
Each week, we get an internal notice which tells you about people who have retired, resigned or been kicked out of the job e.t.c. and how many people do you think have been chucked out for drugs since CDT was introduced?
NIL as far as I know. If someone did get caught for it, they would not be able to resist plastering it all over the intranet. Also, from looking back at the stats, there has been no marked increase in people being kicked out since the CDT was introduced so I can only assume that they simply don't catch anyone as even if it was all low key, the stats would have gone up!
In any case, I know of one guy who tested positive for cannabis and got away with it simply by saying that he "passively smoked" it.
Yeah right
