nigegilb

Endplay, for all its faults, and I understand the team visited well over 40 establishments, you haven't highlighted a better method of guaging current attitudes amongst servicemen. Perhaps you could highlight a better method currently in use?

In the absence of another system and after the passing of the gagging order a few months ago I would suggest that this is an authoritative survey of where we are now. Put it this way, if the conclusion was different and the attitudes were positive do you think Desmond would be so quick to dismiss?

Worse still, having gagged the workforce, the MOD propogandists rush out a press release claiming something else is true and in doing so are speaking on behalf the very servicemen they gagged in the summer.

Sorry, this smacks of panic by the Ministry of Despair. Once again General Dannat has proved himself to be the only service chief worthy of his rank.
Well done General, you can rest assured who the British public believe.

Kitbag

I may be wrong, but the RAF gave up these (AFBLT) reports a couple of years ago didn't it? Probably on security grounds- what you don't know you can't you can't tell.

Wader2

Melchett, thank you for posting the ST article verbatim. Interesting that it was on page 29 at the bottom. Only marginally higher in the burial order than page 28.

One line stuck in my throat

I won't say why as I am sure our erudite readership can infer what I mean.

Gainesy

Unedited = Horse's mouth, true, not spun, not sexed up.

I know which version I believe.

moggiee

Only starting?

.....but only 2 1/2 days a week

Tigs2

I am sure his next words would have been

I felt refreshed and alert during the service particularly as I had had such a good sleep the night before whilst attending the Royal Albert Hall at a service to remember all the gallant men and women who have made sacrifices in the service of their country

Al R

Wasn't Swiss Des too busy to attend the Battle of Britain ceremony?

In many ways, the Heads of the Services are onto a hiding to nothing. Perhaps we've always been this p#ssed off, but never communicated it, because we weren't able to. Perhaps the fact a few dozen folk are openly expressing their dismay simply means that the few thousand others on this board, aren't? Who is more representative?

What can't be disputed is that while Lord West may have been a gallant Captain in Corporate, he's out of his depth in his current job. I also would like to see the Heads of each Service either confirm that the men and women in their charges are happy, or take the g'ment to task properly on their behalf, rather than pointless drip feeding. Also, someone needs to put those media handlers at MoD firmly back in their broom cupboards. If they had any professional credibility, they would be working in the industry properly, and not as desk bound civil servants churning out disingenuous media releases.

Axel-Flo

These MOD people replying tocomments etc. Who exactly are they? I do wish these MOD spokes people would have a face and name it would give us chance to see their credentials and understand perhaps if they have any authority to comment on the subject. It makes me quite vexed that they are so faceless..............II WATs

Two's in

...but you hardly need a Degree in Pyschology to figure this one out. The Army has no major battle-winning procurements in the pipeline for some time and continues to operate marginally capable equipment (except the Apache, which is fully capable, just poorly managed in terms of equipment support). The Navy has 2 carriers due to arrive (some time before the Sun cools down) and a swan boat on the Serpentine, so what do those Service Chiefs have to lose by being critical of the way the Government is running the show? On the other hand, that nice Mr Torpy is still unsure of whether he is getting just the 144 Scroggs Wonderjets or a whole bunch more under Tranche 3 - why would he draw any attention to the RAF's perceived shortcomings until he has secured the future for 500 of his workmates.

Pontius Navigator

Actually we were pissed off right royally in 1965 (or 1966) with the rear crew bang seats and the TSR2 etc etc and we showed this at the 1 Gp Dining In.

I don't know if the effects were heard outside the corridors of power but the AOCs career came to an abrupt stop. The story may be seen here

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48124

The 3* was actually a retired 4* and introduced as

"A former AOCinC of Bomber Command and now a distinguished director of AV Roe (or Hawker Siddley), Air Chief Marshal Sir Harry . . . ." and the rest was drowned out with BANG BANG, BANG BANG and suitable precussive accompaniment.

Later posts in the same thread suggested the event was so large that some people thought the event was quite normal. I certainly have some different memories but in essence it is accurate. One of those who thought it perfectly normal was the Very Reverend Oliver Wycombe-Thistleton-Fiennes, until he got the letter of apology that is.

Oh yes, dissatisfaction was well demonstrated but we didn't get the bang seats for rear crew despite Avro's making a successful plan as the aircraft was due out of service in a year or two.

Al R

I know that there's no comparison, and I know that this guy has not yet been charged of anything, and I know too, that he might be guilty. Or he might not. But. Compare the choices taken when potentially valid and justified criticism is levelled against one, when one holds public office and when the danger is that that public office is in jeapordy of being bought into disrepute. I'm not saying that resignation should be automatic (far from it) but there have been far greater and far more intense and sustained levels raised against the military hierarchy than this man who, by all accounts, has slashed the crime rate in his region.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/7102473.stm

I think of people like John Profumo, who I held such absolute respect for, because of how he conducted himself when he knew he was in the wrong. But better still, because of how he tried in the most humblest of manners to make good the harm he caused by, for instance, cleaning the charitable toilets at Toynbee Hall, and even the likes of Laurence Dallaglio, who stepped back and who grafted hard and has become now of the greatest loved and respected of English sportsmen.

Its all a matter of honour, and doing what's best for the greater good. If those at the top are convinced the g'ment is doing a great job, fine. They serve no one's interest though, least of all the countries (those they are charged to protect), by keeping quiet when they know things are wrong, and by referring to an implicit code of subservient conduct. Yes, I applaud their commitment to 'the system', but commitment is a 2 way street. Where is the commitment to the troops?

endplay

Nigegilb,

As it happens I can't think of a better way to canvass rank and file opinion than a face-to-face conversation with properly informed briefing teams. The RAF has decided to reintroduce an Air Member for Personnel (AMP) team whose focus is admin centric. The AFBLT specifically precluded TG17 WOs to try and garner a more balanced view and to distance itself from the "PMA" perspective. In my 3 years Innsworth I met loads of people who had spent the majority of their careers at the HQ and had a distinctly non-op view of life. I don't knock these people, you play the cards you're dealt, but their priorities were unquestionably different to mine.
Ultimately the message can be skewed in so many ways that perhaps the AFF, something I never thought I would endorse, is the best way forward.
I'm out now but I wish all of you still serving the very best.

Pontius Navigator

Al_R, I mentioned this elsewhere but SASO 1 Gp attended a dining-in night at Scampton just a short period after the drink driving laws came in.

It was expected that the social stigma attached to drink driving would be so great that any officer so convicted would be asked to resgin his commission.

The Air Cdre was entitled to a driver but chose to drive himself. On the way home he drove into a ditch, called the police, cleared his office at Bawtry and resigned with immediate effect - for the good of the service - as he realised that had he not resigned then it would be invidious to ask less junior officers to resign their commissions.

We live in different times.

"Did anyone see you do it? - no - Deny all knowledge"

Al R

Indeed we do live in different times. SASO 1 Gp didn't live in times where there was a demand for media punditry or consultancy..

A possible reason I suppose, is that to those at the top, their current status is a means and not the end. To resign, or to admit to an infallibility wrecks the chances of greater income after one hangs up one's No 1s for the final time.

samuraimatt

What is wrong with wanting the best pension you can get? Everybody is entitled to get the best deal they can. If you think you could have done better then why didn't you get a Commission and rise to Air Ranks level?

Kitbag

As this is in reply to a comment about being honourable and the good of the service it is clearly something you haven't the wit to achieve

Next appraisal= clearly not a team player

airborne_artist

Armed forces 'are running out of money'


Gen Sir Mike Jackson said recent spending commitments by the Chancellor Alistair Darling were likely to prove insufficient to pay for future operations.

More in The Telegraph

grimfixer

Nuff respek for Gen Danatt. First time in years we have a figurehead in the services who has the cohones to challenge the spin merchants et al.
Although more noise on the side of the state of the Armed Forces and it's lack of support can only help, pity Gen Jackson wasn't half as noisy when he was in uniform. Sort of defeats his arguments to a degree as he thought everything was great a short while ago.

The Nip

Maybe the RAF could instil honour, integrity and individual responsibility.

Pontius Navigator

Interesting that the Head of Revenue and Customs walked the plank immediately.