ATC or FC?
Thread Starter
ATC or FC?
Gents,
I suspect that this will decend into a slagging match but....
What is the difference between Air Traffic Control and Fighter (Weapon) Control? I have the rather simplistic view that (mil) ATC keeps (mil) aircraft apart while WC push them together. Do Weapon Controllers actually provide an Air Traffic Service (RIS, RAS etc) to their aircraft?
Many thanks in advance.
I suspect that this will decend into a slagging match but....
What is the difference between Air Traffic Control and Fighter (Weapon) Control? I have the rather simplistic view that (mil) ATC keeps (mil) aircraft apart while WC push them together. Do Weapon Controllers actually provide an Air Traffic Service (RIS, RAS etc) to their aircraft?
Many thanks in advance.
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c-bert
Simplistically put, yes to your understanding. Yes FC do provide RC/RAS/RIS/FIS, but not in all areas within the UK. Also FC's do not in the UK provide Procedural service.
ATC will provide full services within their area, but will not control in other peoples airspace. An FC can control in the whole of the UK but clear of MATZ Zones and the London-Edinburgh/Glasgow spine. Their are other areas that FC's have to get clearance to operate in or require certain rules/events to be happening, but that is not for this forum.
FC's will take tactical aircraft and paint the picture so they can do the sortie, be it fighters or bombers. They also do AAR in certain areas that are their responsibilty and ATC does the other Mil AAR areas. All this whilst making sure that the Fast pointy things don't get in the way of the Passenger carrying jets. Certain areas in the UK can be booked to keep out the Passenger carrying jets but, they don'tr cover all the areas the Fast pointy things play in.
Your best bet is to go on visits to both sides. If your thinking of joining get it done through the careers office. But do do Airfield and Area for ATC and for FC do Boulmer, 1ACC and E3D's at Waddington.
Also do a search on the Mil Forum there quite a few threads re this very subject.
Trap One
Simplistically put, yes to your understanding. Yes FC do provide RC/RAS/RIS/FIS, but not in all areas within the UK. Also FC's do not in the UK provide Procedural service.
ATC will provide full services within their area, but will not control in other peoples airspace. An FC can control in the whole of the UK but clear of MATZ Zones and the London-Edinburgh/Glasgow spine. Their are other areas that FC's have to get clearance to operate in or require certain rules/events to be happening, but that is not for this forum.
FC's will take tactical aircraft and paint the picture so they can do the sortie, be it fighters or bombers. They also do AAR in certain areas that are their responsibilty and ATC does the other Mil AAR areas. All this whilst making sure that the Fast pointy things don't get in the way of the Passenger carrying jets. Certain areas in the UK can be booked to keep out the Passenger carrying jets but, they don'tr cover all the areas the Fast pointy things play in.
Your best bet is to go on visits to both sides. If your thinking of joining get it done through the careers office. But do do Airfield and Area for ATC and for FC do Boulmer, 1ACC and E3D's at Waddington.
Also do a search on the Mil Forum there quite a few threads re this very subject.
Trap One
Ahh, the balmy days at Eastern with the Allocator giving free called recovering Wattisham F4s immediate avoiding action after Neat sent them off VFR and descending with crossing traffic in front (usually below), so NO, fighter controllers do not give an ATC service unless it's very much changed.
chaff, flare, avoiding the inevitable scopie attack!!
Doc C
chaff, flare, avoiding the inevitable scopie attack!!
Doc C
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As for FC being failed ATC, totally wrong as the aptitudes are very similar even if the end product is quite different.
Aircrew, ATC and FC are all skill/aptitude related jobs and a failure in one role represents a high training risk in the others. A few years ago a chopped pilot had a lower chance of qualifying as a navigator than an straight in navigator.
As BluntM8 said on a different thread "practicing the art of the navigator. I found that my skills were better suited to the cerebral than the motor skills." However both need the skill of SA or situational awareness.
And DanielOakworth said "as a retired Nav, I rarely took the opportunity to pole the jet, it wasn't what I was being paid to be good at so it bored me "
So each to his own.
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Yes Weapons Controllers do provide radar services and if you want to get a taste for the Ops Spt (FC) branch spend a few days in Lincolnshire at Blackdog (Scampton) 1 ACC and Waddo, you'll get a better more rounded view of our operations than if you went to Northumberland (where the focus is on training)
If you want to get a taste for ATC then sit in a green house with a pair of binoculars, and an old wireless.
If you want to get a taste for ATC then sit in a green house with a pair of binoculars, and an old wireless.
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Is this really coming around again?
C-bert - That's one mighty fine baited hook you cast dear chap!
Trap One - It never leaves you fella...it'll always be in your blood.
It's just not worth the rise gents....suggest we let this one die!
SA
Trap One - It never leaves you fella...it'll always be in your blood.
It's just not worth the rise gents....suggest we let this one die!
SA
Thread Starter
That's one mighty fine baited hook you cast dear chap!
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C-Bert
Ok then.....if as you say you are genuine.
The answer is of course - yes FC's do provide ATSOCAS/RC iaw the JSP 552.
If you want more then PM me your work contact details and I will give you a ring send an email tomorrow if you have specific questions to clarify.
That is as long as the details are service?
SA
Ok then.....if as you say you are genuine.
The answer is of course - yes FC's do provide ATSOCAS/RC iaw the JSP 552.
If you want more then PM me your work contact details and I will give you a ring send an email tomorrow if you have specific questions to clarify.
That is as long as the details are service?
SA
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Interestingly.....
Having many years ago attended a course at Boulmer, I was very surprised how 'advanced' fighter controllers are. Granted, their 'controlling' skills are poor (from past experience), but their knowledge and experience of 'the real world' (i.e. Ops) is immense. In a world where airspace is paramount, those who 'control it' win it. My advice to you is to join the 'dark side'. Sorry, but ATC is an extremely insular branch that has been far too up its own a*s* for many years and FC's have stolen a march on the ATC fraternity. ATC needs to professionally branch out into the real (read 'operational') military world. 
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Outside of the MDAs flight safety is easily 70% of the job, simple as that.
Painting the tactical picture takes up some capacity however, most of our time is spent deconflicting/co-ordinating with factor traffic whilst passing traffic info, using RIS/RAS/RC to the aircrew in order to keep their SA up.
Painting the tactical picture takes up some capacity however, most of our time is spent deconflicting/co-ordinating with factor traffic whilst passing traffic info, using RIS/RAS/RC to the aircrew in order to keep their SA up.
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ATC needs to professionally branch out into the real (read 'operational') military world.
Witness GR4 SoFs being held off because 'I have an aircraft on 5 nm finals'. Witness Apaches about to launch on counter IDF patrols being told to shut down because there is IDF in progress.
In fairness, it's not the ATC guys fault because few of them have been trained in operational procedures such as killboxes and use of military IFF codes. However, on ops (or on a towline) I'm afraid I'd take an FC anyday.
Standing by for incoming.
Guest
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Boldface,
Harsh, but essentially fair. Those areas that you mention are not down to inability on the part of the of the ATC guys, but down to lack of exposure, appropriate training and a lack of foresight on the part of the ATC powers at the then HQ MATO, then HQ STC and now Air Cmd (or whatever it's called this week). The only guys who have that experience in bundles are the ATC cadre at TCW and pretty bloody good they are. Trouble is, they were taken for granted for too long and there are so few of them around in the mainstream, their experience cannot readily be passed on to the less-experienced mainstream ATC folks.
If ATC is to contribute effectively in present and future operations, it must seek more common ground with the FC guys - although I understand that may already be under way. If they Navy guys can wear 2 hats (FC/ATC), then it is not much to ask our guys to do the same. It must also properly train everbody for OOA ops. The American ATC folks (for all their faults) have had a more tactical/portable view to their ATC. Now they are far from perfect, but we could learn a few things from them. However late in the day that may be.
Hard hat on and preparing for incoming
.
WJMcP
Harsh, but essentially fair. Those areas that you mention are not down to inability on the part of the of the ATC guys, but down to lack of exposure, appropriate training and a lack of foresight on the part of the ATC powers at the then HQ MATO, then HQ STC and now Air Cmd (or whatever it's called this week). The only guys who have that experience in bundles are the ATC cadre at TCW and pretty bloody good they are. Trouble is, they were taken for granted for too long and there are so few of them around in the mainstream, their experience cannot readily be passed on to the less-experienced mainstream ATC folks.
If ATC is to contribute effectively in present and future operations, it must seek more common ground with the FC guys - although I understand that may already be under way. If they Navy guys can wear 2 hats (FC/ATC), then it is not much to ask our guys to do the same. It must also properly train everbody for OOA ops. The American ATC folks (for all their faults) have had a more tactical/portable view to their ATC. Now they are far from perfect, but we could learn a few things from them. However late in the day that may be.
Hard hat on and preparing for incoming
.WJMcP
Last edited by Wee Jock McPlop; 18th Oct 2007 at 16:10.
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Wee Jock,
Agree totally although I'm not sure combining FC and ATC is the way. I would add that the TacATC dudes (I'm not sure if these are the guys in TCW or not) are excellent.
I've always been confused as to how ATC have escaped the contractorisation scourge for so long. Certainly LATCC and SCATCC engage in little if any work that couldn't be done by civvies, and the amount of ATC officers in HQ Air Cmd is rediculous. Perhaps therein lies the answer as to why they've escaped cutbacks! However, when it is considered what has been put out for tender, it seems incongrous they've escaped. It strikes me the ATC branch should be reduced in size and the thrust of their training widened considerably to at least include the basics of operational tasks.
Just to reiterate to the ATC dudes out there: I have no beef with you individually. However, your branch appears to be mired in a peacetime mindset.
Agree totally although I'm not sure combining FC and ATC is the way. I would add that the TacATC dudes (I'm not sure if these are the guys in TCW or not) are excellent.
I've always been confused as to how ATC have escaped the contractorisation scourge for so long. Certainly LATCC and SCATCC engage in little if any work that couldn't be done by civvies, and the amount of ATC officers in HQ Air Cmd is rediculous. Perhaps therein lies the answer as to why they've escaped cutbacks! However, when it is considered what has been put out for tender, it seems incongrous they've escaped. It strikes me the ATC branch should be reduced in size and the thrust of their training widened considerably to at least include the basics of operational tasks.
Just to reiterate to the ATC dudes out there: I have no beef with you individually. However, your branch appears to be mired in a peacetime mindset.
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If ATC is to contribute effectively in present and future operations, it must seek more common ground with the FC guys - although I understand that may already be under way. If they Navy guys can wear 2 hats (FC/ATC), then it is not much to ask our guys to do the same. It must also properly train everbody for OOA ops. The American ATC folks (for all their faults) have had a more tactical/portable view to their ATC. Now they are far from perfect, but we could learn a few things from them. However late in the day that may be.
I think it's a little unrealistic to expect an ATC guy to carry out his duties whilst remaining current as a FC. The Navy guys do both jobs but not to the degree that their RAF counterparts do.
Amalgamation may well be on the way, a good thing IMHO, however, controllers will still be streamed at the beginning of training and end up doing either ATC or FC duties. In the short term, we need to be working together in order to make the best of a bad situation. Perhaps having a small ATC presence at 1ACC in theatre would be a good start. That said, I don't think that would be a popular move...
I think it's a little unrealistic to expect an ATC guy to carry out his duties whilst remaining current as a FC. The Navy guys do both jobs but not to the degree that their RAF counterparts do.
Amalgamation may well be on the way, a good thing IMHO, however, controllers will still be streamed at the beginning of training and end up doing either ATC or FC duties. In the short term, we need to be working together in order to make the best of a bad situation. Perhaps having a small ATC presence at 1ACC in theatre would be a good start. That said, I don't think that would be a popular move...
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We kept going down that route until the contractor shut the door quite firmly. And the contractor's man? She was an ex-ATCO!
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I think the 1ACC ATC experiement was tried in Iraq with fairly unsatisfactory results. Iirc, the ATC guys were limited firstly by peacetime rules which dictate where and what sort of services they can offer with what facilities. Secondly, 1ACC are involved in TST, liaison with JTACs, weapons to target matching to ensure the correct asset is sent to the appropriate situation and JTAC. This all requires familiarity with Mode 1,2 and 4, as well as 3 and C, battlespace management and Joint fires techniques (such as keypads), and data link procedures. In Iraq, they were quietly returned to the UK fairly quickly.
I'd suggest that there are few, if any ATC guys who have similar experience of those disciplines now. That is not to say that appropriate trg couldn't bring them up to speed in time. However, an environment where 30 seconds delay in sending CAS can literally cost lives is not the place to do on the job trg.
Both branches have good and bad guys. However, we should acknowledge that they are different. We can and should draw the branches closer. However, there appears to be an indecent enthusiasm by the ATC Staff Mafia to place their guys where, right now, they're not necessarily ready to go.
More haste, less (branch politics motivated) speed I would suggest is the order of the day in ATC and FC amalgamation.
Regards,
MM
I'd suggest that there are few, if any ATC guys who have similar experience of those disciplines now. That is not to say that appropriate trg couldn't bring them up to speed in time. However, an environment where 30 seconds delay in sending CAS can literally cost lives is not the place to do on the job trg.
Both branches have good and bad guys. However, we should acknowledge that they are different. We can and should draw the branches closer. However, there appears to be an indecent enthusiasm by the ATC Staff Mafia to place their guys where, right now, they're not necessarily ready to go.
More haste, less (branch politics motivated) speed I would suggest is the order of the day in ATC and FC amalgamation.
Regards,
MM
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MM, remember the good old days though when FCs were planted underground and unable even to move their ticket up and down the East coast without re-cating?
The E3 was clearly their key to the door.
Now it would be fascinating for an ATCO to sit in an E3 and perform the Approach tasks at an airfield! No reason why not provided the comms were available to Local.
The E3 was clearly their key to the door.
Now it would be fascinating for an ATCO to sit in an E3 and perform the Approach tasks at an airfield! No reason why not provided the comms were available to Local.
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As an E-3D type, I'd suggest this there are some reasons as to why not.
However, why would you want to? If an airfield is not secured, TacATC would be better placed. If it is secured, there should be ATC guys established on the ground.
Although the E-3D is experiencing it's lowest ever operational utilisation, when it is on ops, there are far greater calls for its capabilities than ATC approach!
Regards,
MM
However, why would you want to? If an airfield is not secured, TacATC would be better placed. If it is secured, there should be ATC guys established on the ground.
Although the E-3D is experiencing it's lowest ever operational utilisation, when it is on ops, there are far greater calls for its capabilities than ATC approach!
Regards,
MM