Eurofighter a dud - London plans to reduce order for obsolescent fighter
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Government to government
If the Saudi deal was government to government, doesn't that mean that the UK is selling its own Tranche 2s? Therefore we appear to be getting more tranche 3's?
Surely if this is the case the UK government could offset the Saudi purchase against the UKs contracted amount.
Surely if this is the case the UK government could offset the Saudi purchase against the UKs contracted amount.
My attitude to this, knowing only as much about it as Jane's Defence Weekly can tell me, is that you'd be far better off getting whatever airframes you can and gaffer-taping the bombs on at a later date if it turns out that's what's required. Cancelling multi-billion military orders always seems to waste huge quantities of money, and in the current climate I'm shocked anyone in the RAF would be interested in turning down aircraft - on the basis that if you refuse these, the money probably won't magically become available for other things.
Phil
Phil
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Hulahoop. I suspect you are onto something there. Given that the Salam deal has been used to fund some of our current activity, somehow the money must be flowing into UK MOD rather than straight to BAe. Seems a bit odd, but I'm sure that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation.....
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Saudi sale
I'm guessing there is some fine print in the contracts which even prohibits resales...
I actually think we should get the lot.. but only if the procurement budget is increased to the point where £20bn isn't such a huge proportion. If not something has to give.
I actually think we should get the lot.. but only if the procurement budget is increased to the point where £20bn isn't such a huge proportion. If not something has to give.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If the Saudi deal was government to government, doesn't that mean that the UK is selling its own Tranche 2s? Therefore we appear to be getting more tranche 3's? Surely if this is the case the UK government could offset the Saudi purchase against the UKs contracted amount.
After the first 24, the remaining aircraft will be assembled in Saudi, so if they replaced the RAF order that would mean the Warton production line would have to be shut down. Now think like a Labour MP, keep the UK Typhoon line open in place of JSF orders, or shut it down to keep LM workers in work in Fort Worth?
The Times: ....."Stefan Zoller, chief executive of EADS Defence Systems, which is part of the Eurofighter consortium, said that the MoD was negotiating with the aircraft’s manufacturers over how much it would cost to cut the Tranche 3 order........
The MoD is working on a compromise that would enable it to count 72 Typhoons that it is about to sell to Saudi Arabia as part of its 88 commitment. However, Mr Zoller insisted that the Tranche 3 contract was firm and that this was not an option. “The Saudi order will be on top, not instead of Tranche 3,” he said.
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The MoD is working on a compromise that would enable it to count 72 Typhoons that it is about to sell to Saudi Arabia as part of its 88 commitment. However, Mr Zoller insisted that the Tranche 3 contract was firm and that this was not an option. “The Saudi order will be on top, not instead of Tranche 3,” he said.
Conningsby, Leuchars and Leeming perhaps
oops that should say:
Gosh I wonder if that means that the RAF will STILL get to have three Typhoon bases?
Last edited by Jetex Jim; 18th Sep 2007 at 15:05.
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Saudi Deal
Unless it is in the contract I can't see what difference it makes to Eurofighter what the UK does with its tranche 2s. Particularly the 24 constructed here.
It certainly spreads the cost of Typhoon over more years. I'm guessing we will be receiving more tranche 3's so won't need to pay for them till later. Unfortunately this isn't going to help much as the later years must already be starting to fill up with things like Trident 2, helicopters, C1,2,3
It certainly spreads the cost of Typhoon over more years. I'm guessing we will be receiving more tranche 3's so won't need to pay for them till later. Unfortunately this isn't going to help much as the later years must already be starting to fill up with things like Trident 2, helicopters, C1,2,3
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@Hulahoop7: It would directly reduce Eurofighter GmbH's order book and Eurofighters are not built in each country in their totality, the Saudi ones will be built in the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, final assembly for the first 24 will be in the UK however.
The contract by the way apparently forbids resales or counting exports as a partner country's purchase, I can't see the UK reducing it's order at all.
The contract by the way apparently forbids resales or counting exports as a partner country's purchase, I can't see the UK reducing it's order at all.
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If that ends up being the case, how does the MOD get any money out of the deal? Or does it all flow to BAe?
Last edited by Mr-AEO; 18th Sep 2007 at 18:37. Reason: Spolling
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I suspect that all the oil flows to BAE with MOD in the wings as umpire or accountant, if you like. So the MOD is used by the government to provide profit to BAE from the arms sale to a country constantly under the microscope for human rights issues.
Trust the government's guarantees on the UK banks - really, I'd rather assume the tanker's airborne!
Trust the government's guarantees on the UK banks - really, I'd rather assume the tanker's airborne!
Waste & Blundering in the MOD
AEO-Of course it all goes to BAE, squillions & squillions of taxpayers money straight to BAE shareholders!
In return, BAE deliver obsolescent kit, overweight & overbudget, which almost invariably doesn't work as advertised. Remember Tornado F.3, Nimrod AEW, SA80 mark one etc
You want it to work?, Yes, we can arrange that Sir, just pay squillions & squillions more for a product improvement programme.
Meanwhile, the Army are short of CAS, Helicopters which work & Transports which can reliably get their troops in/out of operations/leave on time.
with fraternal greetings, ambi
In return, BAE deliver obsolescent kit, overweight & overbudget, which almost invariably doesn't work as advertised. Remember Tornado F.3, Nimrod AEW, SA80 mark one etc
You want it to work?, Yes, we can arrange that Sir, just pay squillions & squillions more for a product improvement programme.
Meanwhile, the Army are short of CAS, Helicopters which work & Transports which can reliably get their troops in/out of operations/leave on time.
with fraternal greetings, ambi
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I don't see how anyone can argue that EF is an obsolescent dud.
Based on useful life.
Based on cost.
Based on friendly competitors.
Based on existing tech.
Based on projected enemies.
Based on multi-role capabilities.
Based on funding for futher upgrades.
The F-35 will fly rings around it, designed to at least have the same agility as the F-16, but super-stealthy while the EF gropes its way around, overweight and short-legged.
The EF will be the sidekick to the advanced F-35, not the other way round, only appearing after enemy defenses are suppressed. Otherwise they can fly around in safe Europe intercepting Bears and Cessnas.
All the range numbers I posted are no-tanks, but the F-35 has 700 km more range.
In tests, no matter which aircraft go up against each other, the results are always the same when the pilots are equipped with modern HMS. Both kill each other regardless of aircraft type. The superior supersonic agility of the EF - I'm not sure what it's really for!
Stealth and avionics of the F-35 will be so much superior.
Based on useful life.
Based on cost.
Based on friendly competitors.
Based on existing tech.
Based on projected enemies.
Based on multi-role capabilities.
Based on funding for futher upgrades.
The F-35 will fly rings around it, designed to at least have the same agility as the F-16, but super-stealthy while the EF gropes its way around, overweight and short-legged.
The EF will be the sidekick to the advanced F-35, not the other way round, only appearing after enemy defenses are suppressed. Otherwise they can fly around in safe Europe intercepting Bears and Cessnas.
All the range numbers I posted are no-tanks, but the F-35 has 700 km more range.
In tests, no matter which aircraft go up against each other, the results are always the same when the pilots are equipped with modern HMS. Both kill each other regardless of aircraft type. The superior supersonic agility of the EF - I'm not sure what it's really for!
Stealth and avionics of the F-35 will be so much superior.
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BAe are a business not a charity. MoD employees who write such easy to wiggle out of and vague contracts are the culprits for poor kit, as are the folk who start changing requirements/specifications when the kit is in production without considering the ramifications from a contractual point of view.
Oh and to be fair, the 'SA80 Mark 1' was manufactured by Enfield Royal Small Arms Factory who later became Royal Ordnance Plc who in turn were brought out in 1987 by BAe, 2 years after the SA80 series had entered service with the British Army.
Oh and to be fair, the 'SA80 Mark 1' was manufactured by Enfield Royal Small Arms Factory who later became Royal Ordnance Plc who in turn were brought out in 1987 by BAe, 2 years after the SA80 series had entered service with the British Army.
Like-Minded
Don't deny the F35 will be superior - but when will it be in service with the UK armed forces? 10 years minimum and if you refer to a previous thread from ORAC more like 15+ before we have decent numbers where we are able to train and deploy operationally in parallel. So what do we do before then? Make the most of what we've got I would suggest. Not the ideal soloution but at the end of the day cancelling Typhoon will cost as much to HMG as proceeding with the order. No Typhoon cash to put into other much needed projects - its already been spent. And Typhoon will, very soon [if not already], be far more capable than the F3 and the Jag (the airframes it was designed to replace).
Not following the party line that Typhoon is $hit so expecting incoming.
Don't deny the F35 will be superior - but when will it be in service with the UK armed forces? 10 years minimum and if you refer to a previous thread from ORAC more like 15+ before we have decent numbers where we are able to train and deploy operationally in parallel. So what do we do before then? Make the most of what we've got I would suggest. Not the ideal soloution but at the end of the day cancelling Typhoon will cost as much to HMG as proceeding with the order. No Typhoon cash to put into other much needed projects - its already been spent. And Typhoon will, very soon [if not already], be far more capable than the F3 and the Jag (the airframes it was designed to replace).
Not following the party line that Typhoon is $hit so expecting incoming.
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I don't see how anyone can argue that EF is an obsolescent dud.
You're not one of those Grippen/Rafale groupies are you?
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My highly limited experience of yphoonte was that is was in a different league to the f3, if the JSF is 10-15 years down the line and we need something now what do we do. Ask Mr Put-theball-in to sell us some Migs??
If you buy a car, soon enough a better model comes along. What do you do, walk until the better model comes out them buy it?? six month down the road another one comes out and what do you do then??
Don't blame BWOS for all of it, share the load to HMG, MOD, the Airships (god bless 'em) and the stupid fat hobbits that wrote the contract.
If you buy a car, soon enough a better model comes along. What do you do, walk until the better model comes out them buy it?? six month down the road another one comes out and what do you do then??
Don't blame BWOS for all of it, share the load to HMG, MOD, the Airships (god bless 'em) and the stupid fat hobbits that wrote the contract.
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There is no reason for UK to receive F-35Bs so late when it will achieve IOC in 2011 in the US. The only hold-back is the funding, so that's sort of a self-inflicted wound right there.
I suppose the EF would use tactics similar to the F-16, concentrating on gaining an advantageous position at high transonic or low supersonic speeds, boom and zoom, but the problem is that this will not stop an ultra-agile modern WVR missile shot up the tailpipe aimed off-boresight by HMS. The F-18E uses its superior nose pointing ability to pump missile after missile at an F-16 doing its characteristic 90 degree full bank left or right or zoom climb after merge.
sorry if I don't get the terms properly, I'm not English or American.
I suppose the EF would use tactics similar to the F-16, concentrating on gaining an advantageous position at high transonic or low supersonic speeds, boom and zoom, but the problem is that this will not stop an ultra-agile modern WVR missile shot up the tailpipe aimed off-boresight by HMS. The F-18E uses its superior nose pointing ability to pump missile after missile at an F-16 doing its characteristic 90 degree full bank left or right or zoom climb after merge.
sorry if I don't get the terms properly, I'm not English or American.
