Japan's New Aircraft Carriers
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Japan's New Aircraft Carriers
They call them helicopter carrying destroyers, we called them through-deck cruisers. Lets see if they show interest in Dave...
Strategy Page: Japan's Secret Aircraft Carriers
August 25, 2007: Japan launched the first of its new helicopter-carrying destroyers, the Hyuga, amid great fanfare. This vessel, officially 13,500 tons, will be able to carry helicopters. Plans are for them to mostly carry SH-60 helicopters, but the Hyuga will give Japan its first real power projection capability since 1945.
Japan plans to build at least two Hyuga-class vessels, which can carry up to 11 helicopters, displace 13,500 tons, and are equipped with a Mk41 VLS, giving them the ability for fire air-defense missiles like the Standard and the ESSM, and a vertically-launched ASROC, but also the Tomahawk cruise missile, if Japan wished to do so. It also has two triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts.
The name of the lead ship is probably the first clue that this ship is more than meets the eye. The HIJMS Hyuga was a battleship commissioned in 1918, and which served in World War II. After the battle of Midway in 1942, the Hyuga was converted into a hybrid battleship/aircraft carrier. The new Hyuga looks like a carrier, and her mission sounds like that of a carrier.
This ship in the same weight range of the European "Harrier carriers" (the British Invincibles, the Italian Garibaldi, the Spanish Principe de Asturias, and the Thai Chakri Narubet-classes). While this ship is currently planned to carry helicopters only, European experience (particularly from the British) has shown that this can be an effective platform for fixed-wing aircraft, like the F-35B. That makes the designation of "helicopter carrying destroyer" technically true, but in reality a useful fiction. In essence, they could act as small aircraft carriers or as a landing platform helicopter like HMS Ocean if transport helicopters are used.
Such looseness with designations is nothing new for Japan. In its older incarnation as the Imperial Japanese Navy, there were numerous instances of these involving surface units. The most glaring were the heavy cruisers of the Mogami-class. Supposedly light cruisers displacing 8,500 tons (and fifteen 155-millieter guns), these were really heavy cruisers of over 13,000 tons (with ten eight-inch guns). The claims that those ships were compliant with naval arms limitation treaties were on the disingenuous side.
Another instance involved the super-battleships Yamato and Musashi. The guns had been called "special 40-centimeter", leading many Allied intelligence officers to believe the vessels used sixteen-inch guns. As it is known now, the main battery consisted of nine eighteen-inch (40-centimeter) guns.
In essence, Japan will have a ship about the size of the vessels that were the centerpiece of the British response to a crisis halfway around the world 25 years ago, with a flight deck and an offset island. They performed well, too – just ask Argentina. The Hyuga means that Japan is back in the power projection business.
Strategy Page: Japan's Secret Aircraft Carriers
August 25, 2007: Japan launched the first of its new helicopter-carrying destroyers, the Hyuga, amid great fanfare. This vessel, officially 13,500 tons, will be able to carry helicopters. Plans are for them to mostly carry SH-60 helicopters, but the Hyuga will give Japan its first real power projection capability since 1945.
Japan plans to build at least two Hyuga-class vessels, which can carry up to 11 helicopters, displace 13,500 tons, and are equipped with a Mk41 VLS, giving them the ability for fire air-defense missiles like the Standard and the ESSM, and a vertically-launched ASROC, but also the Tomahawk cruise missile, if Japan wished to do so. It also has two triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts.
The name of the lead ship is probably the first clue that this ship is more than meets the eye. The HIJMS Hyuga was a battleship commissioned in 1918, and which served in World War II. After the battle of Midway in 1942, the Hyuga was converted into a hybrid battleship/aircraft carrier. The new Hyuga looks like a carrier, and her mission sounds like that of a carrier.
This ship in the same weight range of the European "Harrier carriers" (the British Invincibles, the Italian Garibaldi, the Spanish Principe de Asturias, and the Thai Chakri Narubet-classes). While this ship is currently planned to carry helicopters only, European experience (particularly from the British) has shown that this can be an effective platform for fixed-wing aircraft, like the F-35B. That makes the designation of "helicopter carrying destroyer" technically true, but in reality a useful fiction. In essence, they could act as small aircraft carriers or as a landing platform helicopter like HMS Ocean if transport helicopters are used.
Such looseness with designations is nothing new for Japan. In its older incarnation as the Imperial Japanese Navy, there were numerous instances of these involving surface units. The most glaring were the heavy cruisers of the Mogami-class. Supposedly light cruisers displacing 8,500 tons (and fifteen 155-millieter guns), these were really heavy cruisers of over 13,000 tons (with ten eight-inch guns). The claims that those ships were compliant with naval arms limitation treaties were on the disingenuous side.
Another instance involved the super-battleships Yamato and Musashi. The guns had been called "special 40-centimeter", leading many Allied intelligence officers to believe the vessels used sixteen-inch guns. As it is known now, the main battery consisted of nine eighteen-inch (40-centimeter) guns.
In essence, Japan will have a ship about the size of the vessels that were the centerpiece of the British response to a crisis halfway around the world 25 years ago, with a flight deck and an offset island. They performed well, too – just ask Argentina. The Hyuga means that Japan is back in the power projection business.
Yes, Him
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Handy for torpedoes?
Historically, the Japanese have been very fond of torpedoes, some of their WWII torps had amazingly long range compared with European or US tinfish.
Historically, the Japanese have been very fond of torpedoes, some of their WWII torps had amazingly long range compared with European or US tinfish.
You're not going to fit a lot of Dave-Bs on that thing. Don't forget that it's basically a STOVL F-4 in terms of size, with all the volume and fuel capacity that implies. And this ship is marginally smaller than the UK carriers.
A Harrier III would be a better fit.
A Harrier III would be a better fit.
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Indeed. They are the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Force, and have no need for projecting power offensively. Obviously if they are attacked in some way they can then use their carriers with whatever is on them to counter attack i assume.
Ideal for carrying out emergency and relief operations elswhere in the Pacific or a base for peacekeeping duties using helicopters of which Japan has been engaged in quite a lot recently.
I think you'll find that also they have took the plunge in constructing these carriers in a mellow response to China's new 40,000ton carriers being constructed for around 2010.
Ideal for carrying out emergency and relief operations elswhere in the Pacific or a base for peacekeeping duties using helicopters of which Japan has been engaged in quite a lot recently.
I think you'll find that also they have took the plunge in constructing these carriers in a mellow response to China's new 40,000ton carriers being constructed for around 2010.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Changing the constitution is one of the principal aims of the current parliament during the current session.
Abe calls for a 'bold review' of Japanese Constitution
TOKYO: Prime Minister Shinzo Abe marked the 60th anniversary of the Japanese Constitution on Thursday by calling for a bold review of the document to allow the country to take a larger role in global security and foster a revival of national pride.
Overhauling the Constitution, written by U.S. occupation forces after World War II, is one of Abe's top political goals. The 1947 document, which bans military force in settling international disputes and prohibits maintaining a military for warfare, has never been altered.
While polls this week have suggested support for some changes to the document, one of the surveys showed far more opposition than support for changing the Constitution's pacifist clause.
"A bold review of Japan's postwar stance and an in-depth discussion of the Constitution for a 'new Japan' is necessary" to "open up a new era," Abe said in a statement issued Thursday. He added that he was also determined to work "toward a Japan that instills confidence and pride among its children."
In a drive that began under former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, the government has been pushing for constitutional changes that would remove some restrictions on the Japanese military, including clearly recognizing the country's right to have a standing army.......
Abe calls for a 'bold review' of Japanese Constitution
TOKYO: Prime Minister Shinzo Abe marked the 60th anniversary of the Japanese Constitution on Thursday by calling for a bold review of the document to allow the country to take a larger role in global security and foster a revival of national pride.
Overhauling the Constitution, written by U.S. occupation forces after World War II, is one of Abe's top political goals. The 1947 document, which bans military force in settling international disputes and prohibits maintaining a military for warfare, has never been altered.
While polls this week have suggested support for some changes to the document, one of the surveys showed far more opposition than support for changing the Constitution's pacifist clause.
"A bold review of Japan's postwar stance and an in-depth discussion of the Constitution for a 'new Japan' is necessary" to "open up a new era," Abe said in a statement issued Thursday. He added that he was also determined to work "toward a Japan that instills confidence and pride among its children."
In a drive that began under former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, the government has been pushing for constitutional changes that would remove some restrictions on the Japanese military, including clearly recognizing the country's right to have a standing army.......
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Two points (ok, three):
1. 2 triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts are the standard ASW outfit for USN (and RAN, etc) ships... they launch the Mk 50 anti-submarine homing torpedo.
2. 13,500 tons (18,00 tons full load) is indeed the same size as Principe de Asturias (17,200 t. full); almost the size of Invincible (20,600 t. full); and a fair bit larger than Giuseppi Girabaldi (13,400 t. full)... if it didn't have all of that ASW/AAW and Command-ship gear eating into volume that the afore-mentioned ships use for stores and aircraft hangars.
The 16DDH ships will not be nearly as capable as either of the first two as a VSTOL carrier... the best match (air capability-wise) would be Girabaldi... the extra tonnage seems to be used for the AAW & Command facilities.
3. The Japanese Constitution says NOTHING about any type of ship or weapon...
"[CHAPTER II. RENUNCIATION OF WAR] Article 9.
1. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
2. In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized."
If you take an extremely strict reading of this, then the entire existing "Japanese Self-Defense Force" is unconstitutional, period. Japan does not have the right to conduct war for any reason... even Self-Defense!
Lesser readings allow for all sorts of equipment and forces for "Self-Defense", but none at all for Offensive war.
In that context, flying Dave from the 16DDH class would really stretch the Self-Defense claim... while flying ASW helos is perfectly allowable.
1. 2 triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts are the standard ASW outfit for USN (and RAN, etc) ships... they launch the Mk 50 anti-submarine homing torpedo.
2. 13,500 tons (18,00 tons full load) is indeed the same size as Principe de Asturias (17,200 t. full); almost the size of Invincible (20,600 t. full); and a fair bit larger than Giuseppi Girabaldi (13,400 t. full)... if it didn't have all of that ASW/AAW and Command-ship gear eating into volume that the afore-mentioned ships use for stores and aircraft hangars.
The 16DDH ships will not be nearly as capable as either of the first two as a VSTOL carrier... the best match (air capability-wise) would be Girabaldi... the extra tonnage seems to be used for the AAW & Command facilities.
3. The Japanese Constitution says NOTHING about any type of ship or weapon...
"[CHAPTER II. RENUNCIATION OF WAR] Article 9.
1. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
2. In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized."
If you take an extremely strict reading of this, then the entire existing "Japanese Self-Defense Force" is unconstitutional, period. Japan does not have the right to conduct war for any reason... even Self-Defense!
Lesser readings allow for all sorts of equipment and forces for "Self-Defense", but none at all for Offensive war.
In that context, flying Dave from the 16DDH class would really stretch the Self-Defense claim... while flying ASW helos is perfectly allowable.
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Italy it seems might be getting rid of the Garibaldi, replaced with this:-
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/num/
A much larger more capable ship capable of the F-35 STOVL
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/num/
A much larger more capable ship capable of the F-35 STOVL
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I see France has come into the Helicopter Carrier fraternity with the "Mistrale" class.
Looks similar to HMS Ocean too...
Japan and the above helicopter carrier are only doing what other nations in the same region are too.
Although China's aircraft carriers are much larger, Thailand even has a smaller carrier now, basically a Principe Asturias class built by Spain along with of course other nations in SE Asia also acquiring that type of capability
Looks similar to HMS Ocean too...
Japan and the above helicopter carrier are only doing what other nations in the same region are too.
Although China's aircraft carriers are much larger, Thailand even has a smaller carrier now, basically a Principe Asturias class built by Spain along with of course other nations in SE Asia also acquiring that type of capability
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"Italy it seems might be getting rid of the Garibaldi"
Actually, Cavour is replacing Vittorio Veneto... a helicopter-carrying ASW cruiser of "the old school"... aft flight deck with below-decks hangar for 9-A/B-212s (twin-engined long-fuselage UH-1s).
http://members.aol.com/mircogr/ihelos.html
This one has pictures:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmor...elicopter.html
http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/crustmov.htm
Actually, Cavour is replacing Vittorio Veneto... a helicopter-carrying ASW cruiser of "the old school"... aft flight deck with below-decks hangar for 9-A/B-212s (twin-engined long-fuselage UH-1s).
http://members.aol.com/mircogr/ihelos.html
This one has pictures:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmor...elicopter.html
http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/crustmov.htm
Japan new helicopter carrier - Sea control role?
I wonder if it will have a sea control role akin to the US Navy/USMC WASP class LHAs where the whole MEU-ACE is replaced by MH-53E Sea Dragons and the ship's SAR MH-60S.
My thinking is as the JMSDF is taking deliveries of the EH-101 or what they term MCH-101 whether at some point in its service there will be not only SH-60J but MCH-101.
Any thoughts?
My thinking is as the JMSDF is taking deliveries of the EH-101 or what they term MCH-101 whether at some point in its service there will be not only SH-60J but MCH-101.
Any thoughts?
