2007 Puma Crash, Enquiry and Inquest (Merged)
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I think that most people who need to know, know why the SIB, Police, MOD Plod etc etc were involved in this tragic accident. If you don't know why they were involved then you don;t need to know.
I have witnessed first-hand strenuous attempts to cover up cockups, incompetence, dishonesty with the "need to know" argument, and in one case with the issue the far more insidious and fatuous "Public Interest Immunity Certificate".
BGG
And so it should, IMO.
The involvement of the Police and CPS suggests *suspicion* or evidence of some form of criminal activity, and the CPS's decision not to proceed with a prosecution has clearly been made not on the grounds of lack of evidence, but on the grounds that it would serve no purpose (the inference being that one or more of the individuals is now deceased).
Accordingly, provided that operational security is not compromised, the general public has every right to know what led to the loss of an aircraft and the involvement of the Police and CPS, all of which are funded by the taxpayer.
And so it should, IMO.
The involvement of the Police and CPS suggests *suspicion* or evidence of some form of criminal activity, and the CPS's decision not to proceed with a prosecution has clearly been made not on the grounds of lack of evidence, but on the grounds that it would serve no purpose (the inference being that one or more of the individuals is now deceased).
Accordingly, provided that operational security is not compromised, the general public has every right to know what led to the loss of an aircraft and the involvement of the Police and CPS, all of which are funded by the taxpayer.
Ewan - I agree, there is no point in getting precious about this incident - most rotary guys and girls have a very good idea what happened and it will hopefully serve as a salutory lesson to us all.
The coroners inquiry will give a verdict but is unlikely to apportion blame and, as you say, such blame would likely serve no purpose (except possibly as a mechanism for further litigation). At least all the families of those involved will hear all the evidence and be able to make their own minds up - I hope they are prepared for some of the journalism that follows though.
The coroners inquiry will give a verdict but is unlikely to apportion blame and, as you say, such blame would likely serve no purpose (except possibly as a mechanism for further litigation). At least all the families of those involved will hear all the evidence and be able to make their own minds up - I hope they are prepared for some of the journalism that follows though.
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Totally agree crab...... But I think its going to be bloody, very unpleasant and very very upsetting and embarrasing for the RAF. As you rightly state, at least the families will at last know what happened.
Ewan - heard today that maybe no further action was taken because other persons in the supervisory and management chain may have been implicated. If a wazzing and zooming ethos existed then it didn't just come from one person
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A helicopter crash which killed three people was caused by an RAF pilot "showing off," an inquiry has ruled.
Flight Lieutenant David Sale, 28, was flying the 170mph Puma "dangerously fast and low," it concluded.
And a senior RAF source said he was "doing stunts a bit like a motorbike rider performing wheelies".
Flt Lt Sale died in the crash along with loadmaster Sgt Philip Burfoot, 27, and Army trainee Pte Sean Tait, 17. Nine other passengers were injured.
The pilot would have faced criminal charges had he survived.
And relatives of the victims are now expected to sue the Ministry of Defence for millions, claiming a breach of its "duty of care".
The £20million Puma, call sign Bravo Zulu, was from the RAF's 33 Squadron based at Benson, Oxfordshire.
The troop carrier was deployed two years ago to the huge Army garrison in Catterick, North Yorks, to help teach rookie squaddies how to SAFELY operate with helicopters.
Witnesses saw it travelling low and fast at Catterick before it pulled up, then crashed, the joint police and RAF inquiry revealed.
RAF fliers in a Chinook had radioed the Puma crew to caution them to "calm down".
The RAF source put the blame squarely on Flt Lt Sale, adding: "There was no mechanical failure."
Pumas are used as battlefield helicopters to provide tactical troop and load movement by day or night.
They can carry 16 fully-equipped soldiers or up to two tons of freight.
An MoD spokesman said last night: "Our thoughts and sympathies remain with the families, friends and colleagues of Pte Tait, Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and all those who were injured in this incident.
"The RAF authorities will decide whether internal action should be taken once evidence is received from North Yorkshire Police
Flight Lieutenant David Sale, 28, was flying the 170mph Puma "dangerously fast and low," it concluded.
And a senior RAF source said he was "doing stunts a bit like a motorbike rider performing wheelies".
Flt Lt Sale died in the crash along with loadmaster Sgt Philip Burfoot, 27, and Army trainee Pte Sean Tait, 17. Nine other passengers were injured.
The pilot would have faced criminal charges had he survived.
And relatives of the victims are now expected to sue the Ministry of Defence for millions, claiming a breach of its "duty of care".
The £20million Puma, call sign Bravo Zulu, was from the RAF's 33 Squadron based at Benson, Oxfordshire.
The troop carrier was deployed two years ago to the huge Army garrison in Catterick, North Yorks, to help teach rookie squaddies how to SAFELY operate with helicopters.
Witnesses saw it travelling low and fast at Catterick before it pulled up, then crashed, the joint police and RAF inquiry revealed.
RAF fliers in a Chinook had radioed the Puma crew to caution them to "calm down".
The RAF source put the blame squarely on Flt Lt Sale, adding: "There was no mechanical failure."
Pumas are used as battlefield helicopters to provide tactical troop and load movement by day or night.
They can carry 16 fully-equipped soldiers or up to two tons of freight.
An MoD spokesman said last night: "Our thoughts and sympathies remain with the families, friends and colleagues of Pte Tait, Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and all those who were injured in this incident.
"The RAF authorities will decide whether internal action should be taken once evidence is received from North Yorkshire Police
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Oiks
This is John Kay in the Sun who has it as an 'exclusive' but does not identify the 'RAF source'.
I intend to stick with the MoD spokesman who said:
I intend to stick with the MoD spokesman who said:
Our thoughts and sympathies remain with the families, friends and colleagues of Pte Tait, Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and all those who were injured in this incident.
Has the inquest actually started or has this Journo jumped the gun somewhat?
Not that I was expecting responsible journalism from a Red-Top
Not that I was expecting responsible journalism from a Red-Top
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Couldn't agree more. Despite what this chap did, he was a fellow Officer and aviator and I for one would hope that if one day I fcuk up (again) then I would have the support of my fellow aviators.
Rest in Peace guys
Rest in Peace guys
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The RAF haven't done an inquiry; the BoI is still suspended! The only body that has conducted any investigation in to this accident is the North Yorks Police and they are presenting their findings at the inquest.
If someone has opened their gob to the press (for money) then they need hanging!
If someone has opened their gob to the press (for money) then they need hanging!
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I echo the above thoughts. But they are not the only one that needs to look intrinsically. Post accident a letter sent by ex co JHC was in disgustingly bad taste, especially after he wanted no gossip or jumping to conclusions (I suppose I cannot say what I think of him)
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I think we have all done things in the air that, in the cold light of "older", were... inappropriate? I can attest to where... ohhh... a wake was left down a reservoir that scared the crewman, (me), who was sat in the door facing backwards in Puma in a 16 seat fit with the doors open to impress the TA lasses in the back. The pilot was one of the most competent low level pilots I have ever flown with... But it was un-nerving to say the least - the subsequent "in the weeds" flying on the same few flights had me wondering just how many inches the tips were from the ground as we cut around the subsequent contours. To the pilot's credit he immediately reigned in his flying when I informed him that, while the ladies were impressed with his ability, he was scaring his crewman.
With the Mull thread in mind, this was the same pilot who I voice marshalled 1000 feet up a cloud covered hill sideways in Scotland to recover a lost patrol... About half a mile of a couple of hundred feet visibility while map reading by contours to find their grid reference. He never strayed from his voice commands.
He was a fine pilot... and if you are watching this and recognize the scenario PM me... You have my utter respect.
With the Mull thread in mind, this was the same pilot who I voice marshalled 1000 feet up a cloud covered hill sideways in Scotland to recover a lost patrol... About half a mile of a couple of hundred feet visibility while map reading by contours to find their grid reference. He never strayed from his voice commands.
He was a fine pilot... and if you are watching this and recognize the scenario PM me... You have my utter respect.
There's a fine line, surely, between 'showing off' in the way outlined in some of the previous posts, and the kind of spirit and personal pride in one's own expertise which should surely be the hallmark of the military aviator?
Isn't there an inevitable risk that the line might sometimes be crossed?
Or isn't there always the risk that when familiarising troops with helicopter operations in the safety of the UK, that there will be a temptation to make their experience as 'dynamic' as it might be under operational conditions?
Flight Safety might be best served by recruiting 'balanced introverts' - whereas, for sound military reasons, doesn't OASC look for the 'balanced extrovert'?
Of course there should be some navel gazing after any fatal accident, and we should do our utmost to prevent them, and to try to avoid any repetition, but could we not do so without hysteria, without involving the Police and the CPS, and without slinging mud at dead aircrew?
Isn't there an inevitable risk that the line might sometimes be crossed?
Or isn't there always the risk that when familiarising troops with helicopter operations in the safety of the UK, that there will be a temptation to make their experience as 'dynamic' as it might be under operational conditions?
Flight Safety might be best served by recruiting 'balanced introverts' - whereas, for sound military reasons, doesn't OASC look for the 'balanced extrovert'?
Of course there should be some navel gazing after any fatal accident, and we should do our utmost to prevent them, and to try to avoid any repetition, but could we not do so without hysteria, without involving the Police and the CPS, and without slinging mud at dead aircrew?
could we not do so without hysteria, without involving the Police and the CPS, and without slinging mud at dead aircrew?
With respect, your take on this seems a little too soft - even if this crew couldn't tell by themselves where to draw the line between "spirit and personal pride in one's own expertise" and showing off, all they had to do was take the friendly advice apparently offered by another helicopter operating nearby (whatever the Puma crew was doing must have been pretty outrageous for the other crew to feel they had to say something). To ignore such advice is pretty crass - if this is what happened - and if others are to learn from this tragic and wholly preventable accident, then surely we should not shy away from a frank discussion as to how it went so wrong on this occasion. This is not the same as mud-slinging, which suggests unjustified criticism for the sake of it.
Last edited by TorqueOfTheDevil; 8th Sep 2009 at 14:14.
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Gazette Live - News - Local News - Compensation claim after helicopter tragedy
SOLDIERS injured in a helicopter crash which killed a Teesside comrade have launched a claim for compensation.
Flight Lieutenant David Sale, 28, from Norton, the aircraft’s captain, was killed along with crewman Sergeant Phillip Burfoot and Private Sean Tait of The Royal Regiment of Scotland when their helicopter crashed in a grassy field west of Catterick Garrison on August 8, 2007.
An RAF inquiry was launched following the crash but suspended as soon as an investigation by North Yorkshire Police began.
Christopher Hamilton, John Falconer and Dahrll Duncan, who all live in Scotland, are reportedly demanding up to £300,000 each from the Ministry of Defence for ‘‘injury, loss and damage’’ after they were forced to quit the Army on medical grounds.
A writ has been lodged at the Royal Courts of Justice in London.
At the time of the crash, eyewitnesses reported the aircraft ‘‘misfiring’’ before turning on its side and dropping ‘‘like a sack of potatoes’’.
Last month acting assistant chief constable Steve Read, of North Yorkshire Police, who led the police investigation into the crash, said: ‘‘Conclusions regarding the cause of the crash can only be properly drawn after all the evidence has been heard at the inquest
The Crown Prosecution Service reviewed a file of evidence concerning the deaths of Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and Pte Tait.
In March this year Liz Reid, reviewing lawyer, CPS special crime division, said: ‘‘I considered whether there was sufficient evidence to prosecute either the co-pilot or the Army officer who had placed Private Sean Tait on the flight that day, for the offence of manslaughter by way of gross negligence of any or all of the victims.
‘‘For this offence the prosecution would have to prove that the individual concerned owed a duty of care to the individual victim, that they breached that duty of care and that the breach was a more than minimal cause of that person’s death.
“We would also have to prove that the breach was so bad as to constitute gross negligence.
‘‘Having carefully considered all of the evidence I concluded that there was insufficient evidence to charge either of these individuals with manslaughter by way of gross negligence.’’
An inquest into the deaths of the three service personnel will be held on October 5 at Harrogate Magistrates’ Court. It is expected to last three weeks.
SOLDIERS injured in a helicopter crash which killed a Teesside comrade have launched a claim for compensation.
Flight Lieutenant David Sale, 28, from Norton, the aircraft’s captain, was killed along with crewman Sergeant Phillip Burfoot and Private Sean Tait of The Royal Regiment of Scotland when their helicopter crashed in a grassy field west of Catterick Garrison on August 8, 2007.
An RAF inquiry was launched following the crash but suspended as soon as an investigation by North Yorkshire Police began.
Christopher Hamilton, John Falconer and Dahrll Duncan, who all live in Scotland, are reportedly demanding up to £300,000 each from the Ministry of Defence for ‘‘injury, loss and damage’’ after they were forced to quit the Army on medical grounds.
A writ has been lodged at the Royal Courts of Justice in London.
At the time of the crash, eyewitnesses reported the aircraft ‘‘misfiring’’ before turning on its side and dropping ‘‘like a sack of potatoes’’.
Last month acting assistant chief constable Steve Read, of North Yorkshire Police, who led the police investigation into the crash, said: ‘‘Conclusions regarding the cause of the crash can only be properly drawn after all the evidence has been heard at the inquest
The Crown Prosecution Service reviewed a file of evidence concerning the deaths of Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and Pte Tait.
In March this year Liz Reid, reviewing lawyer, CPS special crime division, said: ‘‘I considered whether there was sufficient evidence to prosecute either the co-pilot or the Army officer who had placed Private Sean Tait on the flight that day, for the offence of manslaughter by way of gross negligence of any or all of the victims.
‘‘For this offence the prosecution would have to prove that the individual concerned owed a duty of care to the individual victim, that they breached that duty of care and that the breach was a more than minimal cause of that person’s death.
“We would also have to prove that the breach was so bad as to constitute gross negligence.
‘‘Having carefully considered all of the evidence I concluded that there was insufficient evidence to charge either of these individuals with manslaughter by way of gross negligence.’’
An inquest into the deaths of the three service personnel will be held on October 5 at Harrogate Magistrates’ Court. It is expected to last three weeks.
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2007 Puma inquest.
I saw the Sky News report on the 2007 Puma crash inquest and they played part of CVR tape.
Not withstanding the rights and wrongs of that in public, I thought I heard an aural "master caution" or similar. Having flown the civvie Puma, I wondered if anyone can provide more info on what it was as I try to understand what happened.
Are there any copies of the transcript or accident report available to those of us now in a different uniform?
Thanks,
H-D
Not withstanding the rights and wrongs of that in public, I thought I heard an aural "master caution" or similar. Having flown the civvie Puma, I wondered if anyone can provide more info on what it was as I try to understand what happened.
Are there any copies of the transcript or accident report available to those of us now in a different uniform?
Thanks,
H-D
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The recording is available on the Sky News website.
The warnings heard are "AP" Autopilot & "Low Height". Without knowing were in the final sequence the recordings are from they are of little use. The AP caption is often intermittant and does not mean that the AP has dropped out and Low height is dependent upon RadAlt bug settings and therefore in isolation is of little consequence. Makes for an apparently good news report but if looking for factual information you should disregard this without having further facts. No idea if the post accident report is in the public domain yet, but they usually get released eventually.
Recording link
The warnings heard are "AP" Autopilot & "Low Height". Without knowing were in the final sequence the recordings are from they are of little use. The AP caption is often intermittant and does not mean that the AP has dropped out and Low height is dependent upon RadAlt bug settings and therefore in isolation is of little consequence. Makes for an apparently good news report but if looking for factual information you should disregard this without having further facts. No idea if the post accident report is in the public domain yet, but they usually get released eventually.
Recording link