Intercepting Wandering Bears & Blackjacks Again (Merged)
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8 Bears rumbling across the north sea, (what a sound track !!) Doesn't frighten me half as much as a nuke armed B52. Given the operators history of friendly fire accidents
Be lucky
David
Be lucky
David
Wasn't that only discovered by the maintainers after the cab had landed? Gotta love USAF!
(refering to news story about nuke armed B52 that crossed the USA and landed without the crews knowledge that they were carrying nukes...how does that happen?
'Er, they weren't listed on the F700...' ???
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...-05-b-52_N.htm
(refering to news story about nuke armed B52 that crossed the USA and landed without the crews knowledge that they were carrying nukes...how does that happen?
'Er, they weren't listed on the F700...' ???
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...-05-b-52_N.htm
Last edited by Stitchbitch; 6th Sep 2007 at 20:26.
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Ozgrade...
Not dumb questions mate, and certainly worth some explanation.
As has been mentioned from previous comments in this thread, military forces around the world operate under various forms of 'Due Regard' which in my 10+ years of exposure to them through US/Coalition operations here in the Middle East assimilate more to "Due Dis-regard", but that's another story.
Essentially this traffic operates in International waters and ultimately have no requirement (and typically don't!) comply with many of the conventions of worldwide aviation. This includes both Communications and Navigation.
The most significant B52, B1 and B1 operations for GW2 originated in Diego Garcia, Oman, and Qatar. Prior to the official commencement of operations in the Iraq and Afghan theaters, these aircraft operated heavy due regard ops through the Middle East region, simulating mission profiles etc. Once hostilities officially got under way, the GCC states established formal transit lanes and basic procedures for achieving the objectives of the coalition states. If however, and it did/does happen that these privileges are removed then the respective acft will continue the mission due regard and remain clear of the objecting states.
On a daily basis in this FIR we have the US P3 ops operating 'Due Regard' and if I was to say it provides an extremely unsafe and difficult ATC environment with the levels of the civil traffic and military we endure, I would be underestimating the problem.
The Russians are conducting a typical and under international conventions, legal, projection of force not unlike the US and Coalition Forces do here in the ME, its just that it is on your doorstep so it is making the news.
As has been mentioned from previous comments in this thread, military forces around the world operate under various forms of 'Due Regard' which in my 10+ years of exposure to them through US/Coalition operations here in the Middle East assimilate more to "Due Dis-regard", but that's another story.
Essentially this traffic operates in International waters and ultimately have no requirement (and typically don't!) comply with many of the conventions of worldwide aviation. This includes both Communications and Navigation.
The most significant B52, B1 and B1 operations for GW2 originated in Diego Garcia, Oman, and Qatar. Prior to the official commencement of operations in the Iraq and Afghan theaters, these aircraft operated heavy due regard ops through the Middle East region, simulating mission profiles etc. Once hostilities officially got under way, the GCC states established formal transit lanes and basic procedures for achieving the objectives of the coalition states. If however, and it did/does happen that these privileges are removed then the respective acft will continue the mission due regard and remain clear of the objecting states.
On a daily basis in this FIR we have the US P3 ops operating 'Due Regard' and if I was to say it provides an extremely unsafe and difficult ATC environment with the levels of the civil traffic and military we endure, I would be underestimating the problem.
The Russians are conducting a typical and under international conventions, legal, projection of force not unlike the US and Coalition Forces do here in the ME, its just that it is on your doorstep so it is making the news.
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Ozgrade3 To answer your questions
How do the Russian Bears navigate through the airline tracks without hitting another aircraft. Of course, they use radar and as I understnd it, they do have the kit on board.
But,........isnt it the norm to keep your transmitting gear quiet, such as radars etc so;
A) the otherside doesnt know your comming and,
Yes and no. you don't use the War frequencies and you can limit your power output so that the "enemy" doesn't know your full capability.
B) the less time you transmit, means the less time the other side has to enalyse your electronic signature.
You don't simply broadcast over the full area your radar can. You "squirt" it in the direction you want to look. Also you can on certain aircraft interrogate the othersides IFF so you can see them but they don't know you're there.
Lastly, with the big B-52 raids on Iraq that were launched from the UK, a map shows they have to transverse significant western European Airspace.
How were they separated from the civi traffic, such as close to the UK etc.
Does ATC get a flight plan and ony certain ATCO's know about the plan and handle the military traffic.
ATC gets a flightplan to a certain point. Once the A/C reached that point then they transfer to either Military ATC controllers or to Tactical agencies such as Mobile radars, E3/E2, ships etc. Then once they have dropped they go back to the point that the Flight plan starts again at to Free Call ATC whilst still under "control" of the Tactical agency.
All this is done as part of the "ACO" or Air Control Order. It sets out all the route's heights, areas to avoid etc that will be used in the operation. A limited portion of this will go to the Civil ATC units usually that bit which is in their area.
But,........isnt it the norm to keep your transmitting gear quiet, such as radars etc so;
A) the otherside doesnt know your comming and,
Yes and no. you don't use the War frequencies and you can limit your power output so that the "enemy" doesn't know your full capability.
B) the less time you transmit, means the less time the other side has to enalyse your electronic signature.
You don't simply broadcast over the full area your radar can. You "squirt" it in the direction you want to look. Also you can on certain aircraft interrogate the othersides IFF so you can see them but they don't know you're there.
Lastly, with the big B-52 raids on Iraq that were launched from the UK, a map shows they have to transverse significant western European Airspace.
How were they separated from the civi traffic, such as close to the UK etc.
Does ATC get a flight plan and ony certain ATCO's know about the plan and handle the military traffic.
ATC gets a flightplan to a certain point. Once the A/C reached that point then they transfer to either Military ATC controllers or to Tactical agencies such as Mobile radars, E3/E2, ships etc. Then once they have dropped they go back to the point that the Flight plan starts again at to Free Call ATC whilst still under "control" of the Tactical agency.
All this is done as part of the "ACO" or Air Control Order. It sets out all the route's heights, areas to avoid etc that will be used in the operation. A limited portion of this will go to the Civil ATC units usually that bit which is in their area.
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I would think there is a fair amount of "covert" coordination between Mil flight ops and civil ATC.
Fair enough that our ATC friends don't want to discuss all of that.....
But considering the "negative publicity" a mid-air or even a near-miss would cause, I would think you can be quite sure they do talk to each other.
Fair enough that our ATC friends don't want to discuss all of that.....
But considering the "negative publicity" a mid-air or even a near-miss would cause, I would think you can be quite sure they do talk to each other.
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Arctic exercise:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...warctic103.xml
BTW during the Cold War a USAF radar op told me both sides penetrated each other's airspace on a regular basis on the West/East German border. It was a little game to see if the enemy was paying attention (which it certainly was!)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...warctic103.xml
BTW during the Cold War a USAF radar op told me both sides penetrated each other's airspace on a regular basis on the West/East German border. It was a little game to see if the enemy was paying attention (which it certainly was!)
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Everybody worried about Russian Bombers carring nukes 
This worries me more
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6981483.stm
This worries me morehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6981483.stm
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I find the BBC online news much more detailed then others:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6981541.stm - 8 bear issue
The surprise factor doesn't have to come from radar stealth or lack of a flight plan; the BBC news stated that the two 'July bears' "strayed south from their routine patrol pattern off the Norwegian coast and headed towards Scotland."
They just simply "forgot" to mention the some details of their intentions in their flight plan.
Quite true; one of the points Ronald Reagan pointed out to the Soviet Union to end the Cold War.
I bet more of these "accidents" happen all the time.
In my opinion, Putin is acting like some small (and hairy) child desperately looking for attention. Well, I must admit that it's working; Russia's first time on the front pages for some time now.
What I would like to know is the next bear's reaction if no Scramble satisfies their call for attention. A small child (hairy or not) would get frustrated.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6981541.stm - 8 bear issue
The surprise factor doesn't have to come from radar stealth or lack of a flight plan; the BBC news stated that the two 'July bears' "strayed south from their routine patrol pattern off the Norwegian coast and headed towards Scotland."
They just simply "forgot" to mention the some details of their intentions in their flight plan.
No-one not even Russia would want a nuclear war - it's pointless, it would be like shooting yourself in the foot.
Everybody worried about Russian Bombers carring nukes This worries me more
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6981483.stm
This worries me morehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6981483.stm
In my opinion, Putin is acting like some small (and hairy) child desperately looking for attention. Well, I must admit that it's working; Russia's first time on the front pages for some time now.
What I would like to know is the next bear's reaction if no Scramble satisfies their call for attention. A small child (hairy or not) would get frustrated.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
As a matter of scale, we have this, and other threads, running on the inceased activity by the Russian Air Force, which is of no strategic importance whatsoever.
In the meantime, we ignore the death of another 2 servicemen, and the decision not to buy mine-resistant vehicles. RIP
In the meantime, we ignore the death of another 2 servicemen, and the decision not to buy mine-resistant vehicles. RIP
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Not ignored, but this is after all an aviation forum, and there's very little positive aviation news to speak of at present. Good effort by the F3's, everyones quick to slag them off, good to see them doing a fine job.
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Orac,
You are quite correct; what is happening in the ME should be far more newsworthy that a few Bears coming south.
The fact is that there is a Russian destroyer on a port visit to the Clyde, here for a wreath laying ceremony on Saturday, which has gone un-noticed. RAF PR are making a big song and dance about the fact that a few Russian aircraft are flying in international airspace somewhere near the UK, so as to justify the existence of the F3/Typhoon/E-3D fleet and UKADGE.
As to the supposition that the Russian aircraft may be carrying nukes .... b@!!@cks. Even in the more-recent of the cold war days I very much doubt it (That is about as far back as my experience goes).
Why do we get so concerned whenever the Russians come anywhere near us, what does anyone think they are going to do? A political show of strength for the Russian public at most.
The Russians never showed a huge amount of interest whenever we were in their back yard, Navy or RAF.
Y_G
You are quite correct; what is happening in the ME should be far more newsworthy that a few Bears coming south.
The fact is that there is a Russian destroyer on a port visit to the Clyde, here for a wreath laying ceremony on Saturday, which has gone un-noticed. RAF PR are making a big song and dance about the fact that a few Russian aircraft are flying in international airspace somewhere near the UK, so as to justify the existence of the F3/Typhoon/E-3D fleet and UKADGE.
As to the supposition that the Russian aircraft may be carrying nukes .... b@!!@cks. Even in the more-recent of the cold war days I very much doubt it (That is about as far back as my experience goes).
Why do we get so concerned whenever the Russians come anywhere near us, what does anyone think they are going to do? A political show of strength for the Russian public at most.
The Russians never showed a huge amount of interest whenever we were in their back yard, Navy or RAF.
Y_G
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RAF PR are making a big song and dance about the fact that a few Russian aircraft are flying in international airspace somewhere near the UK, so as to justify the existence of the F3/Typhoon/E-3D fleet and UKADGE.
How do the Russian Bears navigate through the airline tracks without hitting another aircraft
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And if you're looking for a media goof of uber proportions, look no further than Calendar news... footage of a French Mirage, no less!
http://www.itvlocal.com/yorkshire/news/
About 3:20 in, but it'll change when the next bulletin's up, so this link will only be valid for a few hours.
http://www.itvlocal.com/yorkshire/news/
About 3:20 in, but it'll change when the next bulletin's up, so this link will only be valid for a few hours.
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Why do we get so concerned whenever the Russians come anywhere near us, what does anyone think they are going to do? A political show of strength for the Russian public at most.
The Spanish news and chat programs rabbit on about Russian conspiracies, but we all know that Putin is just messing around.
I know it's not good to lower one's guard, but I think I'll make an exception this time, as I can't possible imagine a T96 Bear dropping anything near us.
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ChristiaanJ
'I would think there is a fair amount of "covert" coordination between Mil flight ops and civil ATC.'
Ummm, you must be joking, the entertaining thing is that 80% + of a Mil flight in the ME theater is conducted in civil airspace and trust me we do not conduct any liaison with the military authorities unless they come over and simply say "shkoomer" is not allowed through!
The reality is the less people involved the better, very similar to any organizational environment...
Ummm, you must be joking, the entertaining thing is that 80% + of a Mil flight in the ME theater is conducted in civil airspace and trust me we do not conduct any liaison with the military authorities unless they come over and simply say "shkoomer" is not allowed through!
The reality is the less people involved the better, very similar to any organizational environment...
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Everybody worried about Russian Bombers carring nukes This worries me more
I bet more of these "accidents" happen all the time.