BA currently recruiting Military pilots - until 31 May 2007
Thread Starter
BA currently recruiting Military pilots until until 31 May 2007
Thought some of you folks might be interested in the following, taken directly from the British Airways recruitment website at www.britishairwaysjobs.com
"Managed Path/RAFCARS (Service Pilot Hold Pool)
Ref UKLHR350
Region UK - Heathrow
Location London - Heathrow
Category Technical & Operations
Job Description
Closing Date: 31st May 2007
The Managed Path/RAFCARS Scheme is for experienced high calibre Military pilots who want to develop their careers with one of the most progressive international airlines in the business.
Requirements
Minimum of 1500hrs on any MOD service aircraft.
Member of Managed Path or RAFCAR schemes.
You must be within 2 years of your immediate pension point or exit date.
Skills, Knowledge and Expertise
At the point of application there is no requirement to have an ATPL, however an ATPL or 'frozen' ATPL will be required prior to the offer of a pilot contract.
You will be current on any MOD service aircraft.
You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork.
You as a Person
Physically fit and meet the requirements for the issue of a JAA/CAA Medical Licence (Class 1) and able to satisfy British Airways medical requirements. Please note that British Airways’ medical criteria for employment is of a higher standard than the CAA requirement.
Height between 1.57m (5'2") and 1.91m (6'3") with weight in proportion to height (height is accurately determined during the assessment process). Qualified pilots who are taller than 1.91m may submit an application but will be required to undergo a functionality check to confirm their ability to meet the requirements of the seating positions in the British Airways fleet of aircraft.
Spoken and written fluency in English."
No, I am not a recruiter for BA.
This is nothing more than a friendly pointer for those of you who have had enough of the nonsense, trivia and desert!
This link should take you right to the page:
http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/ba...olredmneytqbyh
Come on people, its got to be worth a sniff! You don't even have to (yet) have the ATPL!
"Managed Path/RAFCARS (Service Pilot Hold Pool)
Ref UKLHR350
Region UK - Heathrow
Location London - Heathrow
Category Technical & Operations
Job Description
Closing Date: 31st May 2007
The Managed Path/RAFCARS Scheme is for experienced high calibre Military pilots who want to develop their careers with one of the most progressive international airlines in the business.
Requirements
Minimum of 1500hrs on any MOD service aircraft.
Member of Managed Path or RAFCAR schemes.
You must be within 2 years of your immediate pension point or exit date.
Skills, Knowledge and Expertise
At the point of application there is no requirement to have an ATPL, however an ATPL or 'frozen' ATPL will be required prior to the offer of a pilot contract.
You will be current on any MOD service aircraft.
You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork.
You as a Person
Physically fit and meet the requirements for the issue of a JAA/CAA Medical Licence (Class 1) and able to satisfy British Airways medical requirements. Please note that British Airways’ medical criteria for employment is of a higher standard than the CAA requirement.
Height between 1.57m (5'2") and 1.91m (6'3") with weight in proportion to height (height is accurately determined during the assessment process). Qualified pilots who are taller than 1.91m may submit an application but will be required to undergo a functionality check to confirm their ability to meet the requirements of the seating positions in the British Airways fleet of aircraft.
Spoken and written fluency in English."
No, I am not a recruiter for BA.
This is nothing more than a friendly pointer for those of you who have had enough of the nonsense, trivia and desert!This link should take you right to the page:
http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/ba...olredmneytqbyh
Come on people, its got to be worth a sniff! You don't even have to (yet) have the ATPL!
Last edited by MrBernoulli; 12th Jun 2007 at 18:25.
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The only problem with the Managed Path/RAFCARS and joining BA is the time it takes with them to get a command. If you leave it until age 38/40 to leave, you used to be almost too old to get a BA command by the time your name reaches the top of the list. Or have things changed?
On the other hand, I understand that there are now several companies who are offering commands to experienced RAF pilots within one or two years.
I guess it looks like the RAF pilot training system will continue to expand to meet demand - even though the overall size of the RAF is shrinking.
On the other hand, I understand that there are now several companies who are offering commands to experienced RAF pilots within one or two years.
I guess it looks like the RAF pilot training system will continue to expand to meet demand - even though the overall size of the RAF is shrinking.
Roughly 15 years to command in ba.....
Heard yesterday that few FJ pilots are applying for ba short haul - intriguing to know whether it's the aircraft or lifestyle which is the deterrent.
Heard yesterday that few FJ pilots are applying for ba short haul - intriguing to know whether it's the aircraft or lifestyle which is the deterrent.
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FJ pilots already know the earth is flat.....
Or is it the lure of a sunrise over the ocean with grit for eyeballs...
Or sleep-as-you-earn in a bunk....
Or is it the lure of a sunrise over the ocean with grit for eyeballs...
Or sleep-as-you-earn in a bunk....
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BoeingMEL - BA doesn't have direct entry Captains
As an ex-fj guy 9 yrs in BA, I would advise anyone who is aiming for a BA longhaul command not to apply if they are older than mid-thirties as the time to command is about 20 years.
Variables:
1. The retirement option has just gone from 55 to 60 and most are staying for at least a part of that.
2. BA want to get rid of the second captain on 4-crew sectors
3. On the plus side, expansion is expected
4. Also plus, rumours are that soon BA will have to allow part-time to the over 55s.....so more captains as a lot would take this up.
Also worth noting is that the time-to-command in Virgin is getting lengthy also
I hope this helps
As an ex-fj guy 9 yrs in BA, I would advise anyone who is aiming for a BA longhaul command not to apply if they are older than mid-thirties as the time to command is about 20 years.
Variables:
1. The retirement option has just gone from 55 to 60 and most are staying for at least a part of that.
2. BA want to get rid of the second captain on 4-crew sectors
3. On the plus side, expansion is expected
4. Also plus, rumours are that soon BA will have to allow part-time to the over 55s.....so more captains as a lot would take this up.
Also worth noting is that the time-to-command in Virgin is getting lengthy also
I hope this helps
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Just a few personal viewpoints:
BALPA and the current pilots would scream blue murder and throw all their toys out of the cot at the idea of DEC's within BA.
Time to command is currently dropping on the SH fleets. Very large intake of FO's this year and the current recruitment of TC's on the bus suggest that is to continue.
The fluf jets at LGW come up for review soon and 'could' be replaced by the bus leading to an increase in destinations and routes (TBC)
There is rumour in the wind of an expansion, BA has squirreled away £15bn for aircraft fleet upgrades/replacements which have yet to be announced. The chance that all of the hulls will be replaced without expanding fully into T5 is a point of great speculation. Currently I believe BA are running at about 12-14 crews per LH aircraft.
The pay (currently undergoing negotiation) is far better than many loco's and, imho, a no/little loss sideways step from the top of the Lt/Ltcmdr, Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr payscales when the variable pay is included (£44k basic £12-£15K variable). One to watch for is the Basically Arse Retirement Plan (BARP) that new entrants will be given. This has been improved but it is in no way a 'real' final salary scheme. BARP is based upon the pre pay negotiation basic of £32k hence a loss of £12k pensionable off your basic!(However, certainly no worse than non pensionable but taxable flying pay). If you leave with your mil pension then you can AVC from source pay and enjoy a greatly improve pension with the tax free benefits.
Personally I find the work (on SH), the lifestyle and most of my colleagues on the flight deck excellent and have no complaints after 18 years of being dicked around under Her Majestys Service.
Currently 'rostered' for 10 days leave, 8 days 'Duty free week', 11 days flying of which I have 4 nights away and 92 credited flying hours. This month is easy but a 'normal' month would consist of approx 20-22 days flying. Weekends are a problem at the start but with the rapid pilot uptake at the moment you should progress up quite quickly. The part time at 55 is a big hook for most of the guys I have flown with and should keep the time to command reasonably level.
There are far worse places to be!
Vote with your feet!
BALPA and the current pilots would scream blue murder and throw all their toys out of the cot at the idea of DEC's within BA.
Time to command is currently dropping on the SH fleets. Very large intake of FO's this year and the current recruitment of TC's on the bus suggest that is to continue.
The fluf jets at LGW come up for review soon and 'could' be replaced by the bus leading to an increase in destinations and routes (TBC)
There is rumour in the wind of an expansion, BA has squirreled away £15bn for aircraft fleet upgrades/replacements which have yet to be announced. The chance that all of the hulls will be replaced without expanding fully into T5 is a point of great speculation. Currently I believe BA are running at about 12-14 crews per LH aircraft.
The pay (currently undergoing negotiation) is far better than many loco's and, imho, a no/little loss sideways step from the top of the Lt/Ltcmdr, Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr payscales when the variable pay is included (£44k basic £12-£15K variable). One to watch for is the Basically Arse Retirement Plan (BARP) that new entrants will be given. This has been improved but it is in no way a 'real' final salary scheme. BARP is based upon the pre pay negotiation basic of £32k hence a loss of £12k pensionable off your basic!(However, certainly no worse than non pensionable but taxable flying pay). If you leave with your mil pension then you can AVC from source pay and enjoy a greatly improve pension with the tax free benefits.
Personally I find the work (on SH), the lifestyle and most of my colleagues on the flight deck excellent and have no complaints after 18 years of being dicked around under Her Majestys Service.
Currently 'rostered' for 10 days leave, 8 days 'Duty free week', 11 days flying of which I have 4 nights away and 92 credited flying hours. This month is easy but a 'normal' month would consist of approx 20-22 days flying. Weekends are a problem at the start but with the rapid pilot uptake at the moment you should progress up quite quickly. The part time at 55 is a big hook for most of the guys I have flown with and should keep the time to command reasonably level.
There are far worse places to be!
Vote with your feet!
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My 16 yr point is at age 40, I take it from the above that it is not worth trying to join BA at age 40, since you are unlikely to reach command by the time you retire at age 55/60 or is that not the case.
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abbotyobs
That seems to be the case. If you want to join BA and get a command, then it would seem that the Managed Path (is it really managed?) isn't worth bothering about. I guess that's why so many are leaving in their early 30s; that way they might get a command in their mid 40s.
That seems to be the case. If you want to join BA and get a command, then it would seem that the Managed Path (is it really managed?) isn't worth bothering about. I guess that's why so many are leaving in their early 30s; that way they might get a command in their mid 40s.
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Time to command is not a fixed figure in any company. It depends on expansion, retirements, route structure, fleet manning requirements and a number of other variables. Currently, BA pilots are achieving shorthaul commands at between 10 and 15 years, and longhaul nearer 20. However, it's not that long since shorthaul commands were available after 8 or so years. If BA begin a serious expansion period, as is rumoured and expected by the markets, the requirement for new captains will increase. Similarly, although BA's retirement option has gone from 55 to 60 (and people cannot now be prevented from remaining until 65), the retirement rate will resume its normal curve 5 or so years from last November, when that legislation was brought into force.
Direct-entry captains are very unlikely ever to be accepted within BA - or most other UK airlines.
For more info about BA recruiting, look here.
As for other Virgin's time to command, it's currently about 8-9 years. With no aircraft deliveries currently scheduled until 2011, it's likely to extend up to 12 years for those nearing the bracket now, but may reduce for those later in the queue if the numbers of commands generated exceeds the recruiting rate of 10-12 years before (if you see what I mean!). That said, it's quite possible that Virgin will reactivate the 6 deferred A346 orders in the next year or two, which would generate about 60 commands, and keep command time to about 9-10 years.
Scroggs
Direct-entry captains are very unlikely ever to be accepted within BA - or most other UK airlines.
For more info about BA recruiting, look here.
As for other Virgin's time to command, it's currently about 8-9 years. With no aircraft deliveries currently scheduled until 2011, it's likely to extend up to 12 years for those nearing the bracket now, but may reduce for those later in the queue if the numbers of commands generated exceeds the recruiting rate of 10-12 years before (if you see what I mean!). That said, it's quite possible that Virgin will reactivate the 6 deferred A346 orders in the next year or two, which would generate about 60 commands, and keep command time to about 9-10 years.
Scroggs
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LFFC,
I'm not entirely sure where this time to command timeframe is coming from???
I think it comes down to what you want to command. The time for SH command is coming down already below 8 years and will, probably, drop further.
I have a mate at First Choice who has waited 9 years for a command, so the grass isn't always greener.
A LH command will take you longer as thats the natural progression within the company but at least on the way to your SH command you will have had a dabble at curved earth flying if you want it.
p.s. not advertising just showing it how I find it
p.p.s. Everyone that joins pushes us ALL up the ladder one, think about it
edit: Just seen Scroggs's post so sorry to repeat!!!!
Also RAFCARS/Managed path only lets you get past the initial online selection routine as you normally need a CPL/ATPL number to fill it in.
I'm not entirely sure where this time to command timeframe is coming from???
I think it comes down to what you want to command. The time for SH command is coming down already below 8 years and will, probably, drop further.
I have a mate at First Choice who has waited 9 years for a command, so the grass isn't always greener.
A LH command will take you longer as thats the natural progression within the company but at least on the way to your SH command you will have had a dabble at curved earth flying if you want it.
p.s. not advertising just showing it how I find it
p.p.s. Everyone that joins pushes us ALL up the ladder one, think about it
edit: Just seen Scroggs's post so sorry to repeat!!!!
Also RAFCARS/Managed path only lets you get past the initial online selection routine as you normally need a CPL/ATPL number to fill it in.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 9th May 2007 at 19:08.
Just remember that in the airline world (BA in particular) seniority is all. The sooner you join, the better. A delay of a few months in joining can result in a difference of years in the time to command. I know this to my cost, as had I joined my first company about 4 months earlier I would have had a command about 4 years earlier.
That's the way the cookie can crumble out there.
YS
That's the way the cookie can crumble out there.
YS
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Be careful about the 'time to Command' bit. If a Command is what is important to you, above everything else, then maybe BA isn't for you. And between now, 2(?) years to joining BA and eventually getting your Command there will definintely (30 years in aviation speaking here) be a 9/11, Middle East crisis, running out of oil crisis........name your flavour of the month.
Understand that once in BA your airforce experience counts for nothing (if you stick to 'just' flying). You will progress up the seniority list just as slowly - or quickly - as everyone else. For someone who is a 'work hard, fly well & I'll be promoted' guy this can be frustrating, to say the least. Passing your check rides with 100% does not get you up the list any faster than the guy who passes with the bare minimum.
On the other hand, if you keep passing with the bare minimum you will climb up the list just as quickly as the guy who gets 100% every time.
In a Big Airline you get opportunities you can't get in most others: shorthaul one year, longhaul the next. Plenty of destinations. On the other hand you rarely fly with the same guys twice. If you want 'outside' work, there are plenty of opportunities in Training, Technical etc etc.
It's horses for courses, as ever, but if Command is what you really really want (the Spice of life??) then BA might not be for you.
Understand that once in BA your airforce experience counts for nothing (if you stick to 'just' flying). You will progress up the seniority list just as slowly - or quickly - as everyone else. For someone who is a 'work hard, fly well & I'll be promoted' guy this can be frustrating, to say the least. Passing your check rides with 100% does not get you up the list any faster than the guy who passes with the bare minimum.
On the other hand, if you keep passing with the bare minimum you will climb up the list just as quickly as the guy who gets 100% every time.
In a Big Airline you get opportunities you can't get in most others: shorthaul one year, longhaul the next. Plenty of destinations. On the other hand you rarely fly with the same guys twice. If you want 'outside' work, there are plenty of opportunities in Training, Technical etc etc.
It's horses for courses, as ever, but if Command is what you really really want (the Spice of life??) then BA might not be for you.
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I am not sure if anyone has mentioned yet, but also consider that BA's Pay scale for co-pilots has 23 (!) increments. This means that whilst waiting all of these prospective years one's pay is still increasing by circa £2300 (I think)per annum. The top rate is up near £100k
This means that, while one is waiting, at least the take-home is still going up....
This means that, while one is waiting, at least the take-home is still going up....
Thread Starter
I chose to go with a job (eventually!) where command was NOT my priority. Been there, done that, fun while it lasted etc. But I WAS after some security, lifestyle, decent wages, reasonable routes etc. so the longhaul job I have is great. Yes, bugger all DEP longhaul jobs available in BA at the moment but shorthaul is still there. In fact, there are next to NO longhaul jobs available in the UK at the mo.
So, with just about all the avail UK jobs being shorthaul, I am willing to bet that the only one that DOESN'T have a bond of some sort is BA. That can't be bad folks? Not that I would advocate this sort of behaviour, but if you do your Airbus course, start flying, don't like it after a few months, you can walk away with your Airbus rating and don't owe anyone a penny. That has got to be a nice little 'insurance' clause surely? And you will likely work less hard than all those easyJet, BMI, Ryanair etc etc wallahs. So if all there is is shorthaul, BA has to be worth a serious look. Get yourself the 'backstop' of being in the pool with a job in your pocket, then, if you want, you can still trawl around for other jobs in your last 2 years in the RAF. Plenty of time to make your mind up.
"Come on down, the price is right!"
So, with just about all the avail UK jobs being shorthaul, I am willing to bet that the only one that DOESN'T have a bond of some sort is BA. That can't be bad folks? Not that I would advocate this sort of behaviour, but if you do your Airbus course, start flying, don't like it after a few months, you can walk away with your Airbus rating and don't owe anyone a penny. That has got to be a nice little 'insurance' clause surely? And you will likely work less hard than all those easyJet, BMI, Ryanair etc etc wallahs. So if all there is is shorthaul, BA has to be worth a serious look. Get yourself the 'backstop' of being in the pool with a job in your pocket, then, if you want, you can still trawl around for other jobs in your last 2 years in the RAF. Plenty of time to make your mind up.
"Come on down, the price is right!"
Umm, sorry to intrude here with a reality check BUT,
You are between 33 and 39 and leaving the military.
You are likely married with kids or potentially so.
You probably don't live currently near Heathrow or Gatwick nor have any desire.
You would quite like a Captains wage.
You have a couple of thousand hours experience.
So WHY THE FLIP don't you apply to easyJet? You'd have a command course after two sims (12 months). Basic Captains pay is 74K plus 11K Sector pay plus 9% pension + loyalty bonus after 2 years.
Based in the regions though sadly no bases in RAF York Vale or East Anglia other than Newcastle or Stansted...
Home every night.
No Seniority.
No longhaul-wife-divorce-syndrome.
We have Cadets at the age of 24 leaving to join BA and Virgin last year that will be vastly senior to you...
Airline flying is boring. There are only 3 considerations:
Base,
Money,
Lifestyle.
Choose wisely.
WWW
You are between 33 and 39 and leaving the military.
You are likely married with kids or potentially so.
You probably don't live currently near Heathrow or Gatwick nor have any desire.
You would quite like a Captains wage.
You have a couple of thousand hours experience.
So WHY THE FLIP don't you apply to easyJet? You'd have a command course after two sims (12 months). Basic Captains pay is 74K plus 11K Sector pay plus 9% pension + loyalty bonus after 2 years.
Based in the regions though sadly no bases in RAF York Vale or East Anglia other than Newcastle or Stansted...
Home every night.
No Seniority.
No longhaul-wife-divorce-syndrome.
We have Cadets at the age of 24 leaving to join BA and Virgin last year that will be vastly senior to you...
Airline flying is boring. There are only 3 considerations:
Base,
Money,
Lifestyle.
Choose wisely.
WWW
Anybody considering a BA job would do well to seriously consider the points WWW raises. Command may not be everything but when it is going to be in excess of 10 years it is worth thinking about because you will get fed up in the right hand seat long before then.
The difference between the bottom of a BA seniority list and a fixed roster pattern like Easy is considerable. You should also do the sums and see how long it would take for BA FO pay to match Loco command pay. The answer is a longtime, and worth bearing in mind with mortgage issues or school fees to pay.
A few years ago for anybody in there early 30's it would have been a straight forward decision, but not now. If you join at your 38 point and want longhaul you will spend the majority of your career at BA in the bottom half of seniority lists which is significant. If you want shorthaul don't rule out the locos. There are negatives as with any company but there are also alot of positives.
The difference between the bottom of a BA seniority list and a fixed roster pattern like Easy is considerable. You should also do the sums and see how long it would take for BA FO pay to match Loco command pay. The answer is a longtime, and worth bearing in mind with mortgage issues or school fees to pay.
A few years ago for anybody in there early 30's it would have been a straight forward decision, but not now. If you join at your 38 point and want longhaul you will spend the majority of your career at BA in the bottom half of seniority lists which is significant. If you want shorthaul don't rule out the locos. There are negatives as with any company but there are also alot of positives.
Lifestyle?
Bid Line Rules.
Location?
Live where you like. There are short haul pilots living all over the place and commuting to LHR.
And if easyjet is so fabulous why are the 24 year old wonderkids leaving for BA then? Rhetorical question btw!
Bid Line Rules.
Location?
Live where you like. There are short haul pilots living all over the place and commuting to LHR.
And if easyjet is so fabulous why are the 24 year old wonderkids leaving for BA then? Rhetorical question btw!
Last edited by Megaton; 11th May 2007 at 05:18.
