British Apache crews 'lack extreme aggression'
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British Apache crews 'lack extreme aggression'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../29/wafg29.xml
"But Capt Staley said he had no qualms about pressing home such attacks until no one was left standing and claimed that American pilots were more effective than their British Apache counterparts, who he said flew higher and were less ruthless in finishing off their targets. "The Brits are good but they don't have the extreme aggression that we do."
"But Capt Staley said he had no qualms about pressing home such attacks until no one was left standing and claimed that American pilots were more effective than their British Apache counterparts, who he said flew higher and were less ruthless in finishing off their targets. "The Brits are good but they don't have the extreme aggression that we do."
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I don't know the guy, but why, based on a newspaper article, do you willingly go along with what was written?
How many threads exist where you give the RAF service member the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps the journo got the story wrong, perhaps the guy was misquoted or taken out of context? Or not, it could be dead accurate reporting, but how often does that happen?
Or is it just because it quotes an American that it must be taken at face value?
If the latter, please carry on.........
How many threads exist where you give the RAF service member the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps the journo got the story wrong, perhaps the guy was misquoted or taken out of context? Or not, it could be dead accurate reporting, but how often does that happen?
Or is it just because it quotes an American that it must be taken at face value?
If the latter, please carry on.........
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telegraph -
If this is how the Americans do it, then im fully behind the UK guys (as always). I'd like to think that you guys would make sure before you pulled the trigger if i was stood there on the ground that i was actually a bad guy. As has been posted above this, perhaps this aggressive stance will lead sadly to more friendly fire casualties.
And yes, i know its easy for me to pontificate sat in my office millions of miles away from the hot stuff.
Keep up the good work chaps
"The aircrew hesitated. "It seemed a little premature," said Lt Denton. "We didn't have hostile intent or a positive ID from the ground commander." But the special forces soldiers were adamant that, although they could not themselves see the men on the boat, they must be the Taliban who had attacked them. That, said Lt Denton, was good enough for the Apache crews."
If this is how the Americans do it, then im fully behind the UK guys (as always). I'd like to think that you guys would make sure before you pulled the trigger if i was stood there on the ground that i was actually a bad guy. As has been posted above this, perhaps this aggressive stance will lead sadly to more friendly fire casualties.
And yes, i know its easy for me to pontificate sat in my office millions of miles away from the hot stuff.
Keep up the good work chaps
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I take it these are the same AH crews that will happily strap blokes to the side of their aircraft and fly straight into an enemy held area, then jump out to give directions ?
If just one innocent life has been saved by being a tad cautious now and again then I say it's worth it.
If just one innocent life has been saved by being a tad cautious now and again then I say it's worth it.
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Having worked closely with the Apache crews closely in the stan, and having them provide top cover, I can honestly say I would feel safer with one AAC Apache, than the whole US Army flying shotgun. I may be safer from the Taliban with the yanks flying shotgun, but chances of surviving a halfwit airline pilot with an itchy trigger finger and the worlds supply of weaponry is slim.
I'll take the AAC every time thank you!
I'll take the AAC every time thank you!
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The fact that the AAC video all engagements, download them, examine them to ensure all is iaw the rules of engagement and then store them as evidence for any future legal action may have a bearing on their behaviour.
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Reading the pages of that article absolutely amazes me. Is this for real?
Or trying to surrender! 
Nail filled rockets and white phos!!! 
What rules are they playing under?
I guess the children must be really proud of you!
As the helicopters came in to attack, Lt Denton said, one of the men turned to face him and dropped to his knees. "I think he knew that there was no hope," he said. "He was making his peace."
Using its cannon and then its rockets, the Apache finished off all the Taliban fighters it could find, then launched nail-filled rockets and dropped white phosphorous to destroy the motorcycles and the machine guns.
What rules are they playing under?
"The odds are on our side. I really enjoy it. I told my wife, if I could come home every night then this would be the perfect job."
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Reading the pages of that article absolutely amazes me. Is this for real?
Yet here it's taken as gospel.
From the Prince Harry deploying thread, posted by S. Sid:
As far the press are concerned, if past incidents are anything to go by, Sky will make up where he is,
As far the press are concerned, if past incidents are anything to go by, Sky will make up where he is,
Nail filled rockets and white phos!!!
Last edited by brickhistory; 1st May 2007 at 23:23. Reason: to add quote
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The AAC is not the only service to review the video download upon completion of missions. The downloaded data has many uses in addition to the legal aspects and is stored in case of future need.
As for the "halfwit airline pilot" comment the overwhelming percentage of US Army Apache pilots are full time Army aviatiors.
The individuals quoted in the story are junior members of the US Army aviation community and are probably prone to the exuberance of youth.
As for the "halfwit airline pilot" comment the overwhelming percentage of US Army Apache pilots are full time Army aviatiors.
The individuals quoted in the story are junior members of the US Army aviation community and are probably prone to the exuberance of youth.
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...and is stored in case of future need.
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IF the story is correct, then :
"..... The individuals quoted in the story are junior members of the US Army aviation community and are probably prone to the exuberance of youth."
means their elders and betters aren't leading them properly.
"..... The individuals quoted in the story are junior members of the US Army aviation community and are probably prone to the exuberance of youth."
means their elders and betters aren't leading them properly.
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means their elders and betters aren't leading them properly.
(Note: it's sarcasm and I do not tar all RM or all RN. Anymore than you should tar all US servicemembers. But that's different, I guess.)
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There was a link to a related story that is of perhaps greater significance as it appears to highlight a radical difference of approach between the outgoing Brit commander and his US replacement.
I can't seem to do a link so its cut and pasted below.
US 'halted Taliban' by ending British ceasefire
By Gethin Chamberlain, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:02am BST 29/04/2007
American forces in Afghanistan claim they have blocked the Taliban's planned spring offensive by overriding British deals with the insurgents and launching an aggressive air and land campaign.
American officers said they could no longer stand by and watch as the Taliban picked off British soldiers who had been left "isolated" in their bases in Helmand province.
The British Army denies that it was forced to abandon its previous approach by the Americans, but Dan McNeill, the US general who was recently given overall command of Nato operations in Afghanistan, has made no secret of his dislike of the ceasefire agreements struck under his British predecessor, Gen David Richards.
advertisementBritish commanders made ceasefire deals with local leaders in a number of areas of Helmand last year, arguing that a halt in the fighting would strengthen the hand of the tribal elders.
But America believed that the ceasefires merely allowed the Taliban time to re-arm and reinforce its positions, and American commanders and diplomats criticised the deals.
The American ambassador to Afghanistan, Ronald Neumann, criticised the British decision to pull out of Musa Qala in northern Helmand last year and he appeared to be vindicated when the town was taken over by the Taliban in February.
Lt Andrea Anthony, the intelligence officer for the 82nd Airborne Division's Task Force Corsair - which includes the Apache helicopter gunship force - said last week that American commanders had adopted a more aggressive approach, out of concern for what was happening on the ground.
"It was difficult for the Brits to have the support they needed," she said. "The ground elements in Helmand were so isolated that they would get shot at and mortared.
"That has changed now. It was a case of having friendly guys there, and we needed to go out and take care of them. You can only lose so many guys before you say, 'This is ridiculous, we are going to do something about it'."
The US airborne task force consists of six Apaches, based at Kandahar, in the neighbouring province to Helmand. Although the British now have a similar number of attack helicopters in Helmand, pressure is such that the Americans felt it necessary to intervene.
Lt Col Dan Huggins, the commanding officer of the airborne task force, said: "Helmand was at a point where the Taliban got too comfortable. They had too much freedom of movement."
Yesterday, Lt Col Charlie Mayo, a spokesman for British forces in Helmand, accepted that the Americans might have been concerned that British troops had been left isolated. He said he did not know who took the final decision on the change of tactics, but said British commanders had agreed that the time had come to mount more aggressive operations.
The British force in Afghanistan has been boosted to 7,700 troops, although only a small proportion are involved in frontline fighting.
I can't seem to do a link so its cut and pasted below.
US 'halted Taliban' by ending British ceasefire
By Gethin Chamberlain, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:02am BST 29/04/2007
American forces in Afghanistan claim they have blocked the Taliban's planned spring offensive by overriding British deals with the insurgents and launching an aggressive air and land campaign.
American officers said they could no longer stand by and watch as the Taliban picked off British soldiers who had been left "isolated" in their bases in Helmand province.
The British Army denies that it was forced to abandon its previous approach by the Americans, but Dan McNeill, the US general who was recently given overall command of Nato operations in Afghanistan, has made no secret of his dislike of the ceasefire agreements struck under his British predecessor, Gen David Richards.
advertisementBritish commanders made ceasefire deals with local leaders in a number of areas of Helmand last year, arguing that a halt in the fighting would strengthen the hand of the tribal elders.
But America believed that the ceasefires merely allowed the Taliban time to re-arm and reinforce its positions, and American commanders and diplomats criticised the deals.
The American ambassador to Afghanistan, Ronald Neumann, criticised the British decision to pull out of Musa Qala in northern Helmand last year and he appeared to be vindicated when the town was taken over by the Taliban in February.
Lt Andrea Anthony, the intelligence officer for the 82nd Airborne Division's Task Force Corsair - which includes the Apache helicopter gunship force - said last week that American commanders had adopted a more aggressive approach, out of concern for what was happening on the ground.
"It was difficult for the Brits to have the support they needed," she said. "The ground elements in Helmand were so isolated that they would get shot at and mortared.
"That has changed now. It was a case of having friendly guys there, and we needed to go out and take care of them. You can only lose so many guys before you say, 'This is ridiculous, we are going to do something about it'."
The US airborne task force consists of six Apaches, based at Kandahar, in the neighbouring province to Helmand. Although the British now have a similar number of attack helicopters in Helmand, pressure is such that the Americans felt it necessary to intervene.
Lt Col Dan Huggins, the commanding officer of the airborne task force, said: "Helmand was at a point where the Taliban got too comfortable. They had too much freedom of movement."
Yesterday, Lt Col Charlie Mayo, a spokesman for British forces in Helmand, accepted that the Americans might have been concerned that British troops had been left isolated. He said he did not know who took the final decision on the change of tactics, but said British commanders had agreed that the time had come to mount more aggressive operations.
The British force in Afghanistan has been boosted to 7,700 troops, although only a small proportion are involved in frontline fighting.
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What has the RN got to do with the AAC?
The point in using the RM and RN was to highlight the error in tarring all members of one service or component, as in this article and some of the posts do about all US Army aviation. As it is fallacy to imply that all RM or RN were represented by the recent 15 Iranian guests.
Also to point out the very real possibility of press hyperbole or just plain inaccuracy in the report.
As in this:
http://www.kommersant.com/p-10639/r_500/radar_defense/
Last edited by brickhistory; 2nd May 2007 at 15:26. Reason: that darn spelling thing