Kinloss........Whats Going on?

[I've_got a traveller]

TSM,

You hit the nail on the head!! Well said Sir!!

[jayteeto]

It all sounds so easy, if only the top brass would stand up and be counted. You know what this government would do??? OK Air Chief Marshal, quit, no problem, we have someone here who will do as we say. The fall on your sword just doesn't work. The people who the government listen to are the ones you all hate.... Journalists. Get the press going for you and you are cooking on gas

[J.A.F.O.]

I am really sorry to hear that ISK has descended to this. I have very fond memories of some great times up there (many of them with Q) and I hope that something happens to turn this all around.

Many things may have changed but I am confident that the professionalism and attitude of lineys and aircrews won't have altered and I hope that this is enough to carry you all through.

You are still doing an excellent job in very demanding circumstances and I am still proud to say that I served there.

[The Swinging Monkey]

jayteeto

I'm afraid that on this occasion I have to disagree with you Sir about calling in the press. There is most definately a time and a place for them I agree, but I fear that things are now at a stage where the press will do little good.
Unless you have ever experienced this sort of thing, then you cannot begin to appreciate what the folks at Kinloss (and probably elsewhere) are going through, and I feel that the public will just look at it as another 'Oh look, the Armed Forces are moaning again' or 'whats with all this morale stuff?'

The fact is that it needs something serious to happen by those 'in the know' ie CAS, ACAS, AOC before people in power will take note. Yes, you are of course right about falling on your sword, but that is why it needs not just one very senior officer, but a few to have the courage to stand up and speak out at the cuts that are not only hitting Kinloss, but many others too. (And its not just the RAF I'm sure)

But it has to be done by someone in uniform. Its no good waiting till you leave and then bleating on. Does anyone even remember now what the 2 retired Army chaps said when they left recently? Can anyone even recall? Thats what I mean. All that happened with them is that they got a bit of publicity for a day or 2 about sounding off. They also took quite a lot of stick for NOT doing it whilst they were in post, and in a position where they could have done something about it.

CAS, ACS, AOC....are any of you reading this? What are you going to do? Do any of you have any concerns over Kinloss and elsewhere in the RAF or are you all too afraid that it may just affect your next promotion board? Dare I suggest you all do the honourable thing or am I being just a little bit silly in thinking any of you are men of honour?

Kind regards
TSM

[jayteeto]

Agreed, complaining after leaving is spineless

[Had Enough 77]

I was back up visiting ISK recently and you can feel the difference on the base, the atmosphere has definately changed. There is going to be a large experience gap in the fleet due to basically all the experienced pilots PVRing along with a significant number of flight engineers( it's all right at least they can train some more, doh! closed that training line down a year ago.) Flying is now at a premium at the base, with many struggling to keep their currencies up and on many days there is no SAR coverage for the UK.

The above is pretty bad but i think the situation on the line has to be seen to be beleived. i dont know the exact numbers but a huge percentage of the SNCO's have left and gone to the offshore industry taking with them their knowledge of a very labour intensive old ac. I think that there is actually no morale at all on the line with all the engineers trying to find a way out of the RAF at the earliest opportunity.

What made me really angry was when i went to lossie for a happy hour to meet my mates we were talking to one of the squadron bosses who was bitching about how hard doing one month in the gulf was and how good he/they were at EO ops as if it was their new thing and no one had been doing it before them, when i told him the current time away the nimrod fleet was doing and the state of affairs he just came out with doesn't affect me so i dont really care , what a c k! I, in my humble opinion, would say this attitude goes up to the top as they will keep up the tempo until either there are no crews left to fly them or until another accident happens.

All in all it is pretty bad with no rosie future on the horizon, and as for MRA4 i think 50:50 is a good estimate. Much respect to the guys up there still doing the job but I am glad I am out.

[brakedwell]

Aeroplanes and the people who fly them have always been a damned nuisance. The RAF would be better off without them - it was ever thus!

[Distant Voice]

TSM
Excellent item. I only hope that your contacts are happy to stand up and be counted when the time is right.

We must have been at Kinloss during the same period.

[Billy No-Jets]

Originally Posted by Had Enough 77

I was back up visiting ISK recently and you can feel the difference on the base, the atmosphere has definately changed. There is going to be a large experience gap in the fleet due to basically all the experienced pilots PVRing along with a significant number of flight engineers( it's all right at least they can train some more, doh! closed that training line down a year ago.) Flying is now at a premium at the base, with many struggling to keep their currencies up and on many days there is no SAR coverage for the UK.

6 Months away each year in the Sand, every year for the last 4 years didn't knock morale anywhere near as much as crewing in at 0400 but not getting flying until 1700 - if you are lucky to fly at all - or every flight being scrapped due to aircraft problems.

Crews are not really current, as said there is seldom a SAR jet available and when a sortie does go the crew make a pretence at holding 'airborne SAR' - only effective if the incident is within about 200 miles of your area and within the first 3 hours of your sortie. God help us with another Piper Alpha!!

The higher echelons at ISK are flagging the problems up but nothing seems to be being done to change things. Short of a few more shifts of lineys, maybe another Sqn or aircrew and a few more jets what can be done??

If the government wants to be part of every skirmish going then we need a decenly equipped and manned military - that costs. For me, I have browsed this forum for many years and only now feel strongly enough to post. Our country/government and senior staff don't appear to care about us but expect unquestionalble loyalty in return. Well, here at ISK, the rats are already fleeing the sinking ship - we are well and truely bu99ered and they still keep on trying to get another baseball bat to fit up our collective arse.

[andgo]

The situation at Kinloss is becoming dangerous. Paper over the cracks as much as you like, but it will crack further, just before before it collapses!
There may well be four Rods somewhere else, but how many are serviceable?
Tony B Liar, your Airships, you should be ashamed.

[nimblast]

To coin a well known phrase
ISK is no longer fit for purpose.
Until it stops pretending otherwise nothing will change.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

on many days there is no SAR coverage for the UK

Indeed, I haven't seen the SAR Nimrod reported as serviceable for over a week. So meanwhile we have a national standby Herc ready to go at Lyneham - like the Herc boys and girls don't have enough going on already, without holding a new SAR standby too!

Crews are not really current, as said there is seldom a SAR jet available

...but this implies that the Nimrod crews have at least had some SAR training in the past, even if they haven't practised it for a while. No offence at all to the SAR Herc crew, but is there any SAR knowledge or experience at all at Lyneham? And how much use is a Herc when it can do barely half the speed of a Nimrod? Why, even a wheezing old Sea King might get there first...

[Biggus]

US Navy coastguard uses C-130s for long range SAR.

What asset has provided long range SAR cover in the Falklands for the past 25 years......?

Yes, the boys at Lyneham aren't as experienced at SAR as the ISK mafia, but rest assured they will do their best, and they can outrun a Sea King - JUST.....

In my day we used to do live ASR drops off the south coast before deploying to the Falklands, I don't know if that is still the case. My understanding is that in the Nimrod fleet most people (Navs?) who have dropped an ASR set have done so by mistake.......

Still, levity aside, sad to hear of the state of affairs at ISK, I'm sure things will improve when the MRA4 arrives (sorry - back to levity again!)......

[reddeathdrinker]

Rumour has it that one shift of the visiting Air Officers toys have more personnel available than the whole of the line combined

I'd love to deny this malicious rumour, but my mum told me it was bad to tell lies.....

Mr Billy No-Jets has not just hit the nail on the head. He's smacking it with an industrial pile-driver. Repeatedly. The most commonly written word on the sortie board at the moment is "CANX".

And as for engines_suck, I am aware of his 4 Nimrods, and he's bloody welcome to them - Better littering the pan there, than here!!!

[Flight Detent]

I understand that the German Navy has just purchased eight Lockheed P3C Orion aircraft, and are happy to have done so!

Sounds like a great move to me, why don't the RAF do the same??

Cheers, FD

[jayteeto]

Are you paying?? They are skint!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Flight Deterent,

Now wash your mouth out! How dare you suggest that the British government should purchase an aircraft NOT made by BWOS, I've never heard of such blatant treason!

But what a great idea that would be. More commonality with other NATO members and a tried and proven airframe that works today, instead of dart-arsing around with MR4 (I see it was further delayed yesterday?)

I spent a short exchange (4 weeks) with the US Navy on a P3 squadron, and was impressed by its capability frankly. It is a good, solid, safe and capable aircraft. No, its not as fast as Nimrod, but so what? Does anyone know of any subs that can outrun a P3?

I would go along with that suggestion:

1. Stop flying ALL MR Nimrods, today, now.
2. Send a bunch of qualified Nimrod/Maritime people over to Davis Monthan to pick out 30+ P-3C airframes
3. ONLY send Nimrod people ie NO hangers on and time wasters. No Blunties, scribblies, bean counters et al. Engineers, aircrew and real support people.
4. The boys and girls that are left, send to the USN to get trained up
5. Shut down ISK for a couple of months and get some of the urgent infrastructure problems sorted once and for all. and then we may get a result.

The result will be a huge increase in morale. A feeling of self worth and belief, and a genuine wish by all concerned to get Kinloss back to where it used to be and where it deserves to be.

Oh dear, I must be dreaming. Sorry folks, of course it won't happen. You will have to make do until the mighty MR4 arrives, sometime in 2015, 16, 17?

Great idea though flight deterent.

TSM

[brakedwell]

How about borrowing WR 982 from the Gatwick Aviation Museum to keep the Kipper fleet going until the Orions arrive?

[pmills575]

Err, sorry to pedantic but that's actually WR974!

Good idea though, another ancient airframe to deal with !

[cornish-stormrider]

we could borrow the shack gate guard from St Mawgan.......