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AAC Flying Pay change

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AAC Flying Pay change

Old 17th Mar 2007, 17:40
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I have bitten my lip many times over the last few years, and resisited commenting on many issues of such a contentious nature. This however, I find utterly, utterly appalling, and am so incensed by this absolute, complete and utter lack of loyalty being exercised downwards from those running this Corps, especially at a time when we need to be pulling together and looking after our people.
Over the last few years, I have gradually seen the pride and espirit de corps, of a fine organisation, being chipped away, and compromised. Our corps, made up of some of the finest men and women in the nation, who are working their socks off, being shot at, mortared, rocketed, spending large amounts of time away from families, saving lives, every single day and still dont question.
None of us are in it for the financial rewards, but what really stings the most, is that the reward for the hard work, frustration, stress, and danger is a whopping great big pay decrease.
In a Corps of so many good people, working so bloody hard, it is astounding that such a few people can do such damage to the overall morale and effectiveness of such an organisation. The morale in general of the Corps right now must be at the absolute lowest, and whilst so many of us are on operations risking our lives.
I am quite amazed that this has not made it into the national news, as it is a scandal of the highest order.
What will this do for overall manning? Not a lot, as all that will happen is that we will lose more of the experienced pilots, that we should be so desperately holding on to, and filling it with inexperience. Book keepers will be happy, but be under no illusion the overall effectiveness is reducing. When times are really tough, it is our pride, and professionalism that keep us going. I am sure the professionalism will not change, but it is hard to feel loyalty to an organisation that keeps letting its people down so badly and is clearly so out of touch with its greatest asset.
A sad sad time indeed.
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Old 17th Mar 2007, 21:04
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Just wondering about the legality of all this. In the long and short of it, several years ago we were told to stop recording P2 time, only P1 hours. Therefore how can there still be a pay band for P2 if nobody logs it? Plus does this make all contracts i.e timebars void because of a change of pay scheme?
Any legal eagles out there?
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 08:18
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Sorry to stick my head in, but can someone explain to a non-AAC person exactly what the change was? What system were you on before, and what are you on now?

It sounds like you were getting flying pay from the award of wings, is that right?
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 12:12
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Prior to this letter coming out there were 4 levels of flying pay as a pilot and four levels as an aircraft commander; initial, middle, higher and enhanced (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th tour).
When you reached 2nd tour pilots pay and then achieved aircraft command you moved onto 2nd tour commanders pay and then carried on up the ladder.
With effect of this letter regardless of how many tours you conduct as a pilot, when achieving aircraft command you will revert to 1st tour aircraft commanders pay.
Although this may not be a drop in pay, it is significantly lower than a lot of people will have based their financial futures on.
It is not retrospective in monetary terms as no-one will take a drop in pay but, you will mark time on your current level until the retrospective interpretation of your entitlement dates catches up.
People have done their own individual assesments and the reduction in earnings over the period of this adjustment vary from a couple of thousand pounds to several tens of thousands as people mark time for up to seven years before moving to the next level.
Disgusting, and disgraceful spring to mind and when it is combined with the Corps seeming to desperatly be searching for Lynx pilots to justify the surplus declared to the pay review body that ought to have been declared as a defecit, thereby ensuring no FRI for an overworked, overstretched organisation then it all adds to a very disatisfied bunch of people at the moment.
Add this to Vehicle Mechanics getting an FRI but not the overworked Apache technicians who are leaving in their droves, personnel being swapped between Dishforth and Wattisham and it strikes me that Army Aviation was not well represented to the AFPRB this year and things do not look good for the future.
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 14:43
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It looks like the reasons why Trenchard set up the RAF nearly 90 years ago are as valid now as they were then!

Good luck all of you crews in the AAC - I honestly think you deserve better!

Last edited by LFFC; 18th Mar 2007 at 14:53.
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 15:36
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Back again from a weekend of working out how to find the other £200 a month i was expecting from next month. Complete nuts and how how many people like me based there mortgages on the fact that flying pay increments should have been in concrete as all the paperwork states. I tend to lose 14000 over the next 4 and a half years and am not a happy bunny.

I do believe that there has to be some parliamentary answers to all this cluster and i for one am in the process of asking questions in bigger places on the legalities of it all and the fact that effectively I along with others could be forced to sell up now as am a little overstretched now that I am not getting my enhanced when I expected it.

Also a message for the peepers from HQ who regularly police this site. How about backing us up and offering us some kind of honest explanation as to the position you have put 90% of the Corps in. No your probably not bothered, too busy spending your enhanced flying pay and wondering how your gonna replace the pilots who sign off because of this. Simple answer is to sort this fiasco out once and for all and save millions on not having to train new pilots to replace the ones that have now so rightly been tipped over the edge.

I seem to recall a few years ago a few pilots being grounded for stress due to financial c--k ups within the corps and they retained their flying pay on medical grounds and did not have to do the job. Also I believe that now with JPA if you are grounded for medical reasons beyond your control then you keep your pay status for 7 years instead of the 2 years on this system.

While on the rant, anyone no about pay for instructors as surely this must be on the horizon. Looking at AFPRB the only spec trade add pay not to have instructor rates is, yes you have guessed it.

PILOTS

Divers - add pay
Dive instructors - instructors pay
paratroopers - para pay
paratrooper jump instructor - PJI pay

and the list goes on. Obviously not that well represented on the AFPRB this year after all.
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 17:39
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Sorry to hear about the flying pay chaps. I received flying pay the day I walked through the gates at MW in 82 to start my crewman's' course, 8 years' later, as Jeep mentioned, someone decided that all my time counted and I went from a middling NCO pilot rate to the new top rate of flying pay, what with that, and a recent promotion, my pay increased by 30% overnight - Changed days I guess but there are market forces at play here - the Corps has a ready pool of would-be, wannabe pilots and has endless resources at is disposal to train them, it simply doesn't need to pay a fortune for pilot retention. The civilian market however is paying very well for experienced pilots simply because the crusty ones are now sozzled in Spain.

For all of you out there who are just coming up to their 12 years' pension then get out and transfer the pension to your new employers scheme, if you are really lucky you should get a great deal when joining a Local Government Scheme (LGPS) (Gold Plated) Enabling you to retire at full whack at 55. For those of you that are to close to 22yrs then bite the bullet and go for the pension but not one jot more - you are worth more outside.

For anyone who doesn't fit inside the two scenarios given then consider Australia, NZ or the RAF (probably in that order)

DO NOT DELAY make your decision NOW! and don't work for peanuts.
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 18:55
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I don't see what all the trouble is ... I'm pretty sure that one of the earliest special flying qualifications in my logbook is "qualified P1 day/night Squirrel", achieved whilst at 660 Sqn some 12 months before I got my wings.
I also have "qualified P1 day/night Lynx" dated well before I ever passed my aircraft commander's check.
The way I see it, I am actually owed back pay
I'm sure they will move the goalposts again as soon as I mention this to them, though. I have always considered HQ DAAVn to be the graveyard for the Corps' sorry retinue of washed-out has-beens who are just marking time until their regular commissions expire and/or their children finish boarding school. This utter scandal just confirms my low opinion of them. I think it is time we gave them some work to do. A formal complaint under the data protection act that my privacy was violated (by publishing personal details in a widely circulated letter), a protracted letter-writing campaign to MPs and the press, requests under the freedom of information act for the actual data that allegedly supports this change of policy, followed by a formal redress and subsequent claim in an employment tribunal for contructive dismissal should do the trick. Even if I never manage to claw back the 14 grand this is going to cost me, it will be a cathartic and healing process.
PS - Anyone noticed the conspicuous lack of any thread on this subject on the arssey website? Does the conspiracy run deeper than simple AAC G1 ineptitude, I wonder?
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 22:41
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I've been away, please clear up a query

I haven't yet seen this letter, but does it mean that any flying tours completed as a pilot (RAF crewman rates) don't count at all?
I was a second tour pilot once, and when I qualified as aircraft commander I reverted to first tour commanders pay, only for a few weeks, but I actually took a pay cut for being better qualified. However after 4 years from first payment of flying pay I went onto second tour commanders pay. Has this now changed?
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Old 18th Mar 2007, 23:26
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Just jumped

This is the straw that has broken this camels back. Off to another service where I dont get illegit paycuts. 8 years AAC down the pan, nylon here I come!!!
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 07:23
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"...plus ca change, plus ca le meme chose...".

I was one of those dropped upon from a great height over the original FRI - you know, the one that was about retaining experience in the middle order of aviation across all three services? Then one that forced several of us out, grounded several others, and still leaves a bitter taste?

I left. Broke my old true-blue heart to be honest, but there is only so much that one can be expected to take. I met so many AAC at the next Army v Navy at Twickenham just after leaving -and had my hand shaken by some very senior types who admired my stand.

The stand was not difficult, as I had already passed 22, so the pension was safe. However...

The only way to make your voice heard is to vote with the feet. Having gone down the redress path - on FRI and another emotive subject - I can tell you that the road is long, fraught, and potentially expensive. If anyone really wants some advice on a s.180 redress, I will be glad to oblige. Just pm me with your e-mail or phone number. I took one of mine virtually to the steps of the High Court for a Judicial Review and (surprise, surprise) they settled out of court. Out of that experience, I am now studying law so that, at some point in the future, I can represent folks in exactly your type of situation.

Parting shot. Do not put up with this guys and girls. I know that you are worth much, much more than this treatment.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 19:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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but seriously...

The other services are recruiting at present, with no drop in pay. Also whilst we are on it I might mention the fact that RM pilots graduate from the same course as us and get full flying pay - the fact they degraded Army flying pay until AC checkride was out of order in the first place when compared to our crab and Navy bretheren.

my papers are in, you may consider doing the same, you can buy a lot of white socks for 20k!
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 19:54
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Apache pilots are the worst off. Bet they're chuffed.

They've just shaved £5500 of my future earnings.

But never mind that, just look at how unfair this is to younger pilots. Anyone who, back in the day, trained on gazelle and stayed on gazelle, was bound to get to aircraft commander status long before those who converted straight onto lynx. Many are still on middle/top rate and this will affect them (as it does me).

But if you're an ab initio apache pilot, you will spend a year on CTT and CTR after your pilot course - at this point I'm not sure when they are awarded AC Comd - but even if it is immediately on completion of CTR that means they will be several months behind their brethren that went onto Lynx and therefore penalised as a result - for the rest of their careers! I do hope that those journalists who rightly lionised the apache pilots in afghanistan recently also pick up on their new pay scheme!

So here we have an Air Corps that not only doesn't pay an FRI to its pilots like the RN and RAF do, it doesn't increment their wages in the same way and in the way that they have been to date!

Now the obvious fact won't have escaped any of you that the overwhelming majority - and probably every man-jack - of officers in the AAC who put this iniquitous rule in place are already on enhanced flying pay, so it won't make a penny's difference to them! A bit like MPs taxing the @rse of us and changing our pension schemes while giving themselves the most generous pay rise and retirement package since Bill Gates thought "maybe I should try working in computers".

I for one shall be inspecting future awards of OBEs and MBEs to see if it correllates with the department responsible for and the signatory to "The Letter" - a letter which will live in infamy - to borrow a phrase from FDR. I have no doubt the medals ought to be cast from an appropriate number of silver pieces.

In a day and age when the Colonel Commandant of the Army Air Corps, Gen Sir Richard Dannatt - an honourable man with whom I have had the privilege to serve - reminds us all of the Covenant between a nation and its armed forces, it is shaming, frankly, to see this covenant so cynically and cravenly discarded by the very officers sworn to uphold it.

They are beneath contempt.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 20:04
  #54 (permalink)  
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It seems that were all looking at this the wrong way. Apparently its the old glass half full over half empty argument. It seems our Lords did fight our case and have prevented us reverting to the "correct" level and paying back any monies overpayed.

So I for one am off to top up my glass and toast the good old AAC!
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 20:58
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I, like many other unsuspecting others, loose nearly 10K and my new rate occurs 1 year after my run out date. There is only 1 dept in DAAvn responsible for this. Don't be under the illusion they fought hard, believe me I know they didn't. I would not complain however, if the money 'saved' was used to finance the Door Gunners and Winch Operators who are clearly also being punished by the same dept and still don't receive continious flying pay, and in some locations not at all. Consider this, is the decision not to pay them is because of the implementation of JPA (that was the excuse stated at least 6 months ago) or just another scam to save money?

So, no FRI, freeze in flying rate despite previous stated policy and rearcrew pay disparity. Not bad for a Corps about to celebrate its 50th Anniversary. Perhaps the savings are paying for the bash at MW in September?

Frankly, I'm disgusted and appalled so much bad policy in such a short space of time can negatively influence the retention of so many good quality Officers and NCO's. I don't know about rocking the boat, it appears it's leaning precariously with a trickle running down the inside. Maybe it's about time to abandon ship?
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 21:01
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I find it a little hard to believe that with all the other pay anomalies that have been written off lately anyone had to ‘fight’ to allow us to keep money that had already been paid. I say this bearing in mind the number of tiffies/yeomen/foremen/clerk of works etc.. who have been being incorrectly paid since pay drop 2000 and Glasgow simply asked the treasury to have the money written off.

Sounds to me like someone embellishing the facts to divert the attention, not like the corps at all….or B.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 21:26
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Gentlemen

I have no knowledge of the letter to which you refer, but I can tell you what JSP 754 (Pay and Charges) has to say about Specialist Pay (Flying).

I am afraid this is one area where, despite being a tri-Service document, it allows differences between the 3 Services, however:

Pilots not qualified as Aircraft Commanders (P2):

RM/Army (Officers and ORs) Pilots P2 - SP(F) at Initial Rate "On completion of CTT"; Middle Rate "After 9 years' total service, subject to a minimum of 3 years' aircrew service; Top Rate "after 18 years reckonable service".

Officers: Maj and below, Upon qualification as Aircraft commander (P1): P1 SP(F), Initial rate "On qualification" (as P1); Middle Rate "After 4 years on the preceding rate"; Top Rate "After 4 years on the preceding rate"; Enhanced Rate "(on having) Received the top rate of SP(F) for 4 years.

Other Ranks: Army NCO pilots qualified as Aircraft Commander (P1): P1 SP(F), Initial Rate "On qualification as aircraft commander"; Middle Rate - "After 4 years on the preceding scale"; Top Rate - "After 4 years on the preceding scale"; Enhanced Rate - "Afetr 4 years on the preceding scale".

RM/Army - Transition to P1 Pilot Status

On attainment of aircraft commander status, RM and Army P2 Pilots will transition to the P1 scale as follows:

Pilots on P2 Initial Rate will transition to the P1 Initial Rate with zero seniority in this new rate, i.e. they will then have to serve 4 years on the P1 initial rate before elevation to the P1 Middle Rate.

Pilots on the P2 Middle Rate with less than 4 full years seniority on the P2 Middle Rate will remain on the P2 Middle Rate until they complete 4 full years on that rate, before transitioning to the P1 Middle Rate (with zero seniority at this new rate).

Pilots on the P2 Middle Rate with 4 full years or more seniority on the P2 Middle Rate will transition immediately to the P1 Middle Rate (with zero seniority in this new rate).

Pilots on the P2 Top Rate will transition immediately to the P1 Middle Rate (with zero seniority in this new rate).



From what you have been saying above, you appear to have been told something different. Or have I misunderstood? I cannot guarantee, of course, that a change to JSP 754 is not in the offing.

Regards

Ginseng
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 21:27
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The reason they went for "mark time" rates of pay was that they originally wanted to claw back all the overpaid monies. When it was pointed out that they therefore would have to also claw back money from those that had left the service it was realised what an impossible task it would be. It is this that our lords and masters quote as fighting our corner. Parity across all three services would be nice, why don't we get a Joint organisation to fight our corner for us, some one like....JHC perhaps?
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 21:37
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This particular problem would affect me if I was to stay in any longer than I am. Luckily I have gone past the magic "22" and just marking time until the right job opportunity comes along (or I get off my backside and look for it).

This is probably the right thread to highlight another pay anomaly that AAC aircrew have to put up with while the other services laugh at us.

I am happy to be corrected if I have misunderstood the following:

PES(A)
Army NCO aircrew can not progress beyond level 22 on the PES(A) payscales.
RAF WO Loadies can progress to level 29. (this is a BIG difference in pay and pension)

This is not a dig at Loadies. In fact, it's a big up to the people looking after the loadies by making sure they can move further up the scale.

Just so I get this clear. A WO1 with 3-4000 flying hours, on extended service, currently flying AH/LUH on ops, having passed the same course as his RAF/RN/RM brethren can not get paid as much as a rearcrewman having done exactly as much service, albeit the AAC chap did it from the lowlier position of the "front seat".

Have I got this wrong ? If not, then why is this the case ?

While it's not the same issue I feel that it is the "little" things in life like this that matter, especially as the AAC appear more and more to be the military aviation worlds whipping boys.

Someone mentioned forming something called JHC? what a great idea. With something like CHC being an alternative.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 21:45
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If this issue is about interpretation of the rules how come they have wrongly interpreted flying pay since Crew Restructuring (CREST) in about 1986, when the 2 pilot crew concept system was initiated. So, has it taken 21 years to discover this anomaly or have the rules changed subtly over time without informing those affected?

The only fair option is to start this 'new' policy for pilots who have yet to begin pilot selection and therefore know the policy before commitment.

Last edited by helidriver; 19th Mar 2007 at 22:34.
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