Tanker facts and figures.....?
Thread Starter
Tanker facts and figures.....?
I’m putting together a big table of tanker figures, and while the Boeing airplanes are generally easy, I have some gaps for the Airbus tankers and the VC10s.
What sort of HDUs do they use on:
The German A310 MRTTs, the Canadian MRTTs, the Aussie A330s and the proposed FSTA aircraft?
How many of the FSTA aircraft will have a centreline HDU, and what sort will it be?
What sort of underwing HDUs will they use on the A400M?
When the ex-BA 767s were being proposed for FSTA were they going to be 2 point or 3 point tankers, and what sort of HDUs were going to be used? How many pallets and how many pax could they have carried?
How many pallets and how many pax will the FSTA A330 carry?
What are the MTOWs for all VC10 versions, and the total fuel capacity figures for the K2, assuming that 70.3, 80 and 68 tonnes are right for the C1K, K3 and K4?
How many pallets can a C1K carry, and how many pax can the non-passenger tankers (K2, 3, 4) carry?
I’m putting together something on historic tankers, too,
so…..
Does anyone have MTOW and total fuel figures for the Valiant B(K)1, Victor B1A (K2P), K1, K1A and K2, and for the Hercules C1K. What was the HDU on the C1K?
And how about for the Myasischev ‘Bison’ tanker variants?
What sort of HDUs do they use on:
The German A310 MRTTs, the Canadian MRTTs, the Aussie A330s and the proposed FSTA aircraft?
How many of the FSTA aircraft will have a centreline HDU, and what sort will it be?
What sort of underwing HDUs will they use on the A400M?
When the ex-BA 767s were being proposed for FSTA were they going to be 2 point or 3 point tankers, and what sort of HDUs were going to be used? How many pallets and how many pax could they have carried?
How many pallets and how many pax will the FSTA A330 carry?
What are the MTOWs for all VC10 versions, and the total fuel capacity figures for the K2, assuming that 70.3, 80 and 68 tonnes are right for the C1K, K3 and K4?
How many pallets can a C1K carry, and how many pax can the non-passenger tankers (K2, 3, 4) carry?
I’m putting together something on historic tankers, too,
so…..Does anyone have MTOW and total fuel figures for the Valiant B(K)1, Victor B1A (K2P), K1, K1A and K2, and for the Hercules C1K. What was the HDU on the C1K?
And how about for the Myasischev ‘Bison’ tanker variants?
Some info. (from open sources) for you:
I’m putting together a big table of tanker figures, and while the Boeing airplanes are generally easy, I have some gaps for the Airbus tankers and the VC10s.
What sort of HDUs do they use on:
The German A310 MRTTs, the Canadian MRTTs, the Aussie A330s and the proposed FSTA aircraft??
‘HDU’ normally refers to centreline hose drum units, such as the FRL Mk 17 fitted to VC10K and TriStar. Wing systems are usually termed ‘pods’.
The A310MRTT and CC150T Polaris use FRL 907E pods. A330MRTT and FSTA will also use FRL 900-series pods.
How many of the FSTA aircraft will have a centreline HDU, and what sort will it be?
Anyone’s guess – but probably ‘about half’? Best guess for the centreline HDU is the FRL Mk 40 HDU, currently under development.
What sort of underwing HDUs will they use on the A400M?
FRL 900-series.
When the ex-BA 767s were being proposed for FSTA were they going to be 2 point or 3 point tankers, and what sort of HDUs were going to be used? How many pallets and how many pax could they have carried?
Some 2-point and some 3-point. If I recall correctly, Boeing planned to use the Smiths’ pod for the 2-point aircraft; not sure about the 3-point. As for ‘pallets’, it depends on your definition....
How many pallets and how many pax will the FSTA A330 carry?
The maximum cargo volume available in the A330 is 4803 ft³, using 26 LD3 cargo containers, the most common container in use world-wide, plus 695 ft³ bulk cargo in the rear of the hold whereas the B767 offers a maximum volume of 4030 ft³, some 16% less. However, to achieve this the B767 needs to use 30 smaller LD2 containers plus 430 ft³ bulk cargo. Unlike the A330, the B767cannot carry LD3 containers in side-by-side pairs.
The A330 has a baseline seat fit of 293 seats, 30 B-class at 40” pitch and 263 Y-class at 32” pitch. ba operates the B767 in a variety of seating configurations; typically in ‘Longhaul Regional’ configuration it is fitted with 32 B-class ‘Club World’ seats at 43” pitch and 183 Y-class ‘World Traveller’ seats at 32” pitch. However, other B767-300ER configurations include 24 B-class seats at 38” pitch and 245 Y-class at 32” pitch, a total of 269 seats. The A330 cabin interior is considerably more spacious than that of the B767, allowing standard Y-class seats to be fitted in an 8 abreast configuration with 2 x 19” aisles, apart from the rearmost 5 rows which are fitted 7 abreast. The narrower cabin of the B767 means that seats and aisles of the same dimensions may only be fitted in 7 abreast configuration.
What are the MTOWs for all VC10 versions, and the total fuel capacity figures for the K2, assuming that 70.3, 80 and 68 tonnes are right for the C1K, K3 and K4?
CIK: MTOW 146.5, max fuel 70.3
K2: MTOW 142.4, max fuel 74.0 (if it would trim!)
K3: MTOW (AAR role) 151.9, max fuel 80.0
K4: MTOW: 151.9, max fuel 70.3
How many pallets can a C1K carry, and how many pax can the non-passenger tankers (K2, 3, 4) carry?
C1K can carry 5 NATO pallets in the full freight role, if I recall correctly. K2 had 18 seats in the cabin, K3 has 17, K4 has 30.
I’m putting together a big table of tanker figures, and while the Boeing airplanes are generally easy, I have some gaps for the Airbus tankers and the VC10s.
What sort of HDUs do they use on:
The German A310 MRTTs, the Canadian MRTTs, the Aussie A330s and the proposed FSTA aircraft??
‘HDU’ normally refers to centreline hose drum units, such as the FRL Mk 17 fitted to VC10K and TriStar. Wing systems are usually termed ‘pods’.
The A310MRTT and CC150T Polaris use FRL 907E pods. A330MRTT and FSTA will also use FRL 900-series pods.
How many of the FSTA aircraft will have a centreline HDU, and what sort will it be?
Anyone’s guess – but probably ‘about half’? Best guess for the centreline HDU is the FRL Mk 40 HDU, currently under development.
What sort of underwing HDUs will they use on the A400M?
FRL 900-series.
When the ex-BA 767s were being proposed for FSTA were they going to be 2 point or 3 point tankers, and what sort of HDUs were going to be used? How many pallets and how many pax could they have carried?
Some 2-point and some 3-point. If I recall correctly, Boeing planned to use the Smiths’ pod for the 2-point aircraft; not sure about the 3-point. As for ‘pallets’, it depends on your definition....
How many pallets and how many pax will the FSTA A330 carry?
The maximum cargo volume available in the A330 is 4803 ft³, using 26 LD3 cargo containers, the most common container in use world-wide, plus 695 ft³ bulk cargo in the rear of the hold whereas the B767 offers a maximum volume of 4030 ft³, some 16% less. However, to achieve this the B767 needs to use 30 smaller LD2 containers plus 430 ft³ bulk cargo. Unlike the A330, the B767cannot carry LD3 containers in side-by-side pairs.
The A330 has a baseline seat fit of 293 seats, 30 B-class at 40” pitch and 263 Y-class at 32” pitch. ba operates the B767 in a variety of seating configurations; typically in ‘Longhaul Regional’ configuration it is fitted with 32 B-class ‘Club World’ seats at 43” pitch and 183 Y-class ‘World Traveller’ seats at 32” pitch. However, other B767-300ER configurations include 24 B-class seats at 38” pitch and 245 Y-class at 32” pitch, a total of 269 seats. The A330 cabin interior is considerably more spacious than that of the B767, allowing standard Y-class seats to be fitted in an 8 abreast configuration with 2 x 19” aisles, apart from the rearmost 5 rows which are fitted 7 abreast. The narrower cabin of the B767 means that seats and aisles of the same dimensions may only be fitted in 7 abreast configuration.
What are the MTOWs for all VC10 versions, and the total fuel capacity figures for the K2, assuming that 70.3, 80 and 68 tonnes are right for the C1K, K3 and K4?
CIK: MTOW 146.5, max fuel 70.3
K2: MTOW 142.4, max fuel 74.0 (if it would trim!)
K3: MTOW (AAR role) 151.9, max fuel 80.0
K4: MTOW: 151.9, max fuel 70.3
How many pallets can a C1K carry, and how many pax can the non-passenger tankers (K2, 3, 4) carry?
C1K can carry 5 NATO pallets in the full freight role, if I recall correctly. K2 had 18 seats in the cabin, K3 has 17, K4 has 30.
Thread Starter
Lovely stuff, BEags.
If only you'd done an exchange on 'Bisons' and rather than wasting your time on Vulcans and Phantoms and the like had done a quick Victor K tour.
If only you'd done an exchange on 'Bisons' and rather than wasting your time on Vulcans and Phantoms and the like had done a quick Victor K tour.
Victor K2 MTOWs: Wartime - 238,000lbs. Peacetime, 223,000lbs. In flight, AAR could take the Max weight to 238,000lbs in peacetime. An empty K2 weighed in between 115,500 and 117,000 lbs.
The Victor had a Mk17 HDU on the centreline and Mk20B pods on the wings. These differed from the pods on the VC10 in that they had their own hydraullic system powered by the Ram Air Tubine on the front of the pod. Ths was used to wind the hose in and out. The RAT also powered the fuel pump. The Mk32 pods fitted to the VC10 just had a fuel pump powered by the RAT which did the winding as well as pumping. The Mk20 was also fitted to the Sea Vixen and Buccaneer in the buddy-buddy role. It had an internal fuel capacity of about 1000lbs and in these aircraft it provided extra tankage. In the Victor however, the pods had to be empty for take off and landing and full in flight for wing bending relief.
The Hecules Tankers had a Mk 17 HDU, the same as fitted to the Victor, VC10 and Tristar.
I don't know about the MA4 Bison, but I did see a Harbin H6 tanker recently.
The Victor had a Mk17 HDU on the centreline and Mk20B pods on the wings. These differed from the pods on the VC10 in that they had their own hydraullic system powered by the Ram Air Tubine on the front of the pod. Ths was used to wind the hose in and out. The RAT also powered the fuel pump. The Mk32 pods fitted to the VC10 just had a fuel pump powered by the RAT which did the winding as well as pumping. The Mk20 was also fitted to the Sea Vixen and Buccaneer in the buddy-buddy role. It had an internal fuel capacity of about 1000lbs and in these aircraft it provided extra tankage. In the Victor however, the pods had to be empty for take off and landing and full in flight for wing bending relief.
The Hecules Tankers had a Mk 17 HDU, the same as fitted to the Victor, VC10 and Tristar.
I don't know about the MA4 Bison, but I did see a Harbin H6 tanker recently.
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Jacko.
As volunteered by Beags, another younger member of the Tanker Mafia.
Valiant BK1. Fitted with Mk 16 HDU, like the Mk17 but DC driven rather than AC as the Valiant was DC. Initially the system used a flat fronted probe nozzle but then converted to the rounded tip cus it went in more easily [yes]. Also initially a solid metal drogue but then used the spoked canopy. Max T/O weight with under wings 175000lbs. 4 times Avon 205 with water meth injection.
Victor1, kit as Victor2, forget MTOW, sorry.
As volunteered by Beags, another younger member of the Tanker Mafia.
Valiant BK1. Fitted with Mk 16 HDU, like the Mk17 but DC driven rather than AC as the Valiant was DC. Initially the system used a flat fronted probe nozzle but then converted to the rounded tip cus it went in more easily [yes]. Also initially a solid metal drogue but then used the spoked canopy. Max T/O weight with under wings 175000lbs. 4 times Avon 205 with water meth injection.
Victor1, kit as Victor2, forget MTOW, sorry.
Last edited by Art Field; 25th Feb 2007 at 19:16. Reason: Accuracy
Thread Starter
Thanks very much, Art. How about max fuel (for Valiant and Victor 1/2)?
And how about an MTOW and max fuel for the Vulcan K2, anyone?
And how about an MTOW and max fuel for the Vulcan K2, anyone?
Vulcan K2: MTOW 92.6 tonne, max fuel 44.5 tonne
Victor K2 - the figure I have is a max fuel value of 58.7 tonne for the K2; the K1 held about 30% less, giving it a max fuel value of about 41 tonne.
Sorry, I don't have any information about the Valiant.
Victor K2 - the figure I have is a max fuel value of 58.7 tonne for the K2; the K1 held about 30% less, giving it a max fuel value of about 41 tonne.
Sorry, I don't have any information about the Valiant.
'Xian H-6, surely?'
Sorry. Xian makes aeroplanes, Harbin makes beer. Easy mistake to make!
Actually, when the TU16 was first made in China under licence, it was at the Harbin aircraft factory. Production was later transferred to the Xian factory, but the designator H6 was retained - the H referring to Harbin. If it had first been produced at Xian, it would have a J designator such as the Xian J7 (MiG 21 copy). The J comes from the original Wade-Giles spelling of the city of Xian, which has it as Jian. Both are pronounced the same.
I'll get me anorak!
Sorry. Xian makes aeroplanes, Harbin makes beer. Easy mistake to make!
Actually, when the TU16 was first made in China under licence, it was at the Harbin aircraft factory. Production was later transferred to the Xian factory, but the designator H6 was retained - the H referring to Harbin. If it had first been produced at Xian, it would have a J designator such as the Xian J7 (MiG 21 copy). The J comes from the original Wade-Giles spelling of the city of Xian, which has it as Jian. Both are pronounced the same.
I'll get me anorak!
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Hose Drum units and Probes
The Mk 16 HDU was DC Powered as stated and suspended in the Valiant Bombay, The Bomb bay soors had to be opened to use it,
The Mk 17 HDU a development from the 16 in the Victor K1 and K1A was DC Powered and was lowered into the airstream being retracted when not in use
The Mk17B HDU in the Victor K2 was AC Powered and was again lowered and retracted from into the airstream
The Flat fronted Refuelling Nozzle was the Mk 6 and was superseded by the MK 8 as the RAF call it but infact it was the MA2 designed in the USA
MTOW for all versions of the Victor are in the new book on the Victor
The Mk 17 HDU a development from the 16 in the Victor K1 and K1A was DC Powered and was lowered into the airstream being retracted when not in use
The Mk17B HDU in the Victor K2 was AC Powered and was again lowered and retracted from into the airstream
The Flat fronted Refuelling Nozzle was the Mk 6 and was superseded by the MK 8 as the RAF call it but infact it was the MA2 designed in the USA
MTOW for all versions of the Victor are in the new book on the Victor
What new book on the Victor is that, do tell? I only have Andrew Brookes one ....... admittedly signed by one of the Handley Page designers and a Victor test pilot.
Thread Starter
Mr B,
Roger Brooks (I hope I've remembered his name correctly) a former Victor crew chief has written a book on the Victor which is being published by Crecy.
Dan W,
I have a way better anorak than you.
Though Harbin made the H-5 (the licenced Il-28) it produced only a handful of H-6s from kits supplied by Tupolev, before the big split between the filthy reds and the inscrutable reds.
Thereafter (and after the usual dislocation and politicking of the Cultural revolution) all Chinese 'Badger' production (as opposed to final assembly) has been by Xian.
ALL of the H-6 tankers (there are two distinct variants, one used by the PLA Air Force, one by the Navy) are Xian-built and Xian designed.
Moreover the H- designation is short for Hong - the Chinese word for bomber, whereas the J- designation indicates a fighter, Q- an attack aircraft and JJ- a fighter trainer. Confusingly, export aircraft have anglicised designations - thus H-6s are known as B-6s, and export J-6s and J-7s are F-6s and F-7s, while the Nanchang Q-5 Fantan becomes the A-5.
Roger Brooks (I hope I've remembered his name correctly) a former Victor crew chief has written a book on the Victor which is being published by Crecy.
Dan W,
I have a way better anorak than you.
Though Harbin made the H-5 (the licenced Il-28) it produced only a handful of H-6s from kits supplied by Tupolev, before the big split between the filthy reds and the inscrutable reds.
Thereafter (and after the usual dislocation and politicking of the Cultural revolution) all Chinese 'Badger' production (as opposed to final assembly) has been by Xian.
ALL of the H-6 tankers (there are two distinct variants, one used by the PLA Air Force, one by the Navy) are Xian-built and Xian designed.
Moreover the H- designation is short for Hong - the Chinese word for bomber, whereas the J- designation indicates a fighter, Q- an attack aircraft and JJ- a fighter trainer. Confusingly, export aircraft have anglicised designations - thus H-6s are known as B-6s, and export J-6s and J-7s are F-6s and F-7s, while the Nanchang Q-5 Fantan becomes the A-5.