Blue on Blue.
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Cover up! Cover up! Cover up!
It's now in the open and the MoD walk away from it at their peril.
There MUST be Staff Officers in the MoD who will now say 'OK that's it, now we tell it as it was.'
There is NO defence for the indefensible, and the only way forward for the families is for the MoD to get to the Coroner and honour these unfortunate guys and their families. They MUST do that now unless they are looking at the tape and trying to see how they can wriggle!
These pilots did make a mistake. From the video standpoint it is fact - it sure ain't a PS2 game - it is real!!
The video was shown on BBC about 25 minutes ago and those asked their opinions were shocked.
The pilot who said "we are in jail Dude" didn't go did they and that means the US were covering big time.
I can think of a lot more to say about this sordid affair but right now the thing that matters is the families, and the MoD must act NOW! To-day would not be too soon!
Good on THE SUN. I never thought I would say that!
It's now in the open and the MoD walk away from it at their peril.
There MUST be Staff Officers in the MoD who will now say 'OK that's it, now we tell it as it was.'
There is NO defence for the indefensible, and the only way forward for the families is for the MoD to get to the Coroner and honour these unfortunate guys and their families. They MUST do that now unless they are looking at the tape and trying to see how they can wriggle!
These pilots did make a mistake. From the video standpoint it is fact - it sure ain't a PS2 game - it is real!!
The video was shown on BBC about 25 minutes ago and those asked their opinions were shocked.
The pilot who said "we are in jail Dude" didn't go did they and that means the US were covering big time.
I can think of a lot more to say about this sordid affair but right now the thing that matters is the families, and the MoD must act NOW! To-day would not be too soon!
Good on THE SUN. I never thought I would say that!
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Well said Gorilla.
Perhaps I could be indulged in repeating a line from my first post on this subject - #21 above.
"Perhaps another enquiry should be launched along the lines of a suspicion of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.
My, albeit limited, understanding is that a Coroner's Court is one of the most powerful in the land."
Thoughts anyone?
Perhaps I could be indulged in repeating a line from my first post on this subject - #21 above.
"Perhaps another enquiry should be launched along the lines of a suspicion of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.
My, albeit limited, understanding is that a Coroner's Court is one of the most powerful in the land."
Thoughts anyone?
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Some American was wheeled out onto the Today programme, and Jeremy Vines Radio 2 show. Each time he said that to release the video would compromise American technology.
Would the video have been recorded by the same cameras that they have released footage from in the past, showing how accurate their bombing is. Remember all the GW1 footage, of bridges being blown up etc.
Why is it that footage putting them in a good light doesn't compromise technology and operations, yet a blue on blue does?
Would the video have been recorded by the same cameras that they have released footage from in the past, showing how accurate their bombing is. Remember all the GW1 footage, of bridges being blown up etc.
Why is it that footage putting them in a good light doesn't compromise technology and operations, yet a blue on blue does?
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While Blue on Blue is naturally an occupational hazard of warfare, like any occupational hazard this does not mean it should therefore be accepted as inevitable. That is not missing the point but taking the real world as it is and trying to reduce the likelihood.
That said, the covering up of the facts of this case (or any) is indefensible and now that the facts are public knowledge this case must now be properly and fully investigated and any culpable persons brought properly to book.
That said, the covering up of the facts of this case (or any) is indefensible and now that the facts are public knowledge this case must now be properly and fully investigated and any culpable persons brought properly to book.
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Why is it that the MOD and Gov't seem to cooperate fully with things like the Bloody Sunday enquiry that's cost miliions and is happy (rightly) to prosecute our own boys and girls should they operate (kill) outside of the in force ROE but stand quietly by without saying a word when others do it to ours. Bloomin disgraceful.
A mistake was made, yes no doubt, but it was totally avoidable and therefore manslaughter at the very least.
C'mon MOD stand up for us for once!
A mistake was made, yes no doubt, but it was totally avoidable and therefore manslaughter at the very least.
C'mon MOD stand up for us for once!
Last edited by OOpsIdiditagain; 6th Feb 2007 at 13:37.
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While Blue on Blue is naturally an occupational hazard of warfare, like any occupational hazard this does not mean it should therefore be accepted as inevitable. That is not missing the point but taking the real world as it is and trying to reduce the likelihood.
Cold as it is persuing the H&S implications of the MoD failure to act/attempt to cover-up may be the best and most legally enforcable route to go down.
I have a much simpler and more effective way of improving things.....assign USAF FAC's to every unit down to platoon sized group. That way the Air Force has a vested interest in not hitting the wrong target.
Am I the only one that gets completely fed up with the US Air Force bombing/strafing friendly Blackhawks and ground units with no effective punishment of the very few who do these sorts of heinous acts.
We have to be fair....we only have a few of these events despite thousands of sorties flown. That means the vast majority are done correctly.
Let's not tar the whole Air Force for actions of the few.
We are quite comfortable putting ground troops on trial for murder but not Air Force Zoomie's.....something is wrong with that picture.
What can be super secret about a HUD video of a strafing run with the cannon? It smacks of the US Air Force covering up for yet another dumbass pilot(s).
Am I the only one that gets completely fed up with the US Air Force bombing/strafing friendly Blackhawks and ground units with no effective punishment of the very few who do these sorts of heinous acts.
We have to be fair....we only have a few of these events despite thousands of sorties flown. That means the vast majority are done correctly.
Let's not tar the whole Air Force for actions of the few.
We are quite comfortable putting ground troops on trial for murder but not Air Force Zoomie's.....something is wrong with that picture.
What can be super secret about a HUD video of a strafing run with the cannon? It smacks of the US Air Force covering up for yet another dumbass pilot(s).
TAC Int Bloke
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Some American was wheeled out onto the Today programme, and Jeremy Vines Radio 2 show. Each time he said that to release the video would compromise American technology.
So now it’s classified? How old is the A-10 attack system?
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Sad thing about this sorry tale is that the US will spend every waking minute tracking the source of the leak and expect the UK Government to extradite the said person to the US. whilst at the same time not allowing any of the culprits of the said blue on blue be to face any examination in a UK court of Law.
Aren't we supposed to be the closest of Allies?
L/COH M Hull is buried in a small village west of Salisbury and my family place flowers at the war memorial which proudly displays his name. For his sake acknowledgement of poor procedures that will enforce a tightening of US attitude toward ground attack must be sought. I am not sure what his family would like to achieve but denial, lies, and little or no facts are not enough.
Aren't we supposed to be the closest of Allies?
L/COH M Hull is buried in a small village west of Salisbury and my family place flowers at the war memorial which proudly displays his name. For his sake acknowledgement of poor procedures that will enforce a tightening of US attitude toward ground attack must be sought. I am not sure what his family would like to achieve but denial, lies, and little or no facts are not enough.
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Some time ago I read the report on the 1991 A-10/Warrior Blue on Blue incident, I had a quick look on the web but couldn't find it. In some ways very similar, mis-id by pilots (despite a correct id by a Jag at 16k) and confussion about the FLOT/FEBA/troops on the ground. Think it recomended better proceedures and some sort of IFF for vehicles, this why we now call them 'Lessons Identified' because we don't learn 
.
Were the vehicles fitted with BFT? How has pilot training been improved, to prevent mis id?
Another tragic loss of life and many others damaged.
. Were the vehicles fitted with BFT? How has pilot training been improved, to prevent mis id?
Another tragic loss of life and many others damaged.
Yes, Him
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/6335701.stm
Coroner's contract not to be renewed.
Coroner's contract not to be renewed.
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How can anyone claim that release of this video would compromise Mil Operations? It can’t be the HUD. This probably relates to the current kit
Accession Number : ADP004112. Report Date : JUL 1984
Title : F-16 and A-10 Diffraction Optics Head Up Display (HUD) Flight Test Evaluation,
Corporate Author : AIR FORCE FLIGHT TEST CENTER EDWARDS AFB CA
Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Members of the public may purchase hardcopy documents from the National Technical Information Service.
All you need to know about HUDs
http://www.hec.afrl.af.mil/Publications/ASC030025.pdf
And …………. A-10. PILOT OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES—
A/OA-10 MULTI-COMMAND INSTRUCTION 11-A/OA10 VOLUME 3 - 17 JANUARY 1997.
At ………. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/11oa10v3.pdf
..... as you'd expect ---
*6.4.2. Pilots must positively identify the target prior to weapons release. Achieve positive identification by either visually acquiring the target or by confirming target location through valid on-board/off-board cues. These cues include marking rounds, Pave Penny spot, IR Maverick lock-on, IR pointers, or other NVG compatible marking devices. Pilots should exercise caution and possess a high level of target situational awareness when relying on a single target cue to confirm target location.
Accession Number : ADP004112. Report Date : JUL 1984
Title : F-16 and A-10 Diffraction Optics Head Up Display (HUD) Flight Test Evaluation,
Corporate Author : AIR FORCE FLIGHT TEST CENTER EDWARDS AFB CA
Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
Members of the public may purchase hardcopy documents from the National Technical Information Service.
All you need to know about HUDs
http://www.hec.afrl.af.mil/Publications/ASC030025.pdf
And …………. A-10. PILOT OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES—
A/OA-10 MULTI-COMMAND INSTRUCTION 11-A/OA10 VOLUME 3 - 17 JANUARY 1997.
At ………. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/11oa10v3.pdf
..... as you'd expect ---
*6.4.2. Pilots must positively identify the target prior to weapons release. Achieve positive identification by either visually acquiring the target or by confirming target location through valid on-board/off-board cues. These cues include marking rounds, Pave Penny spot, IR Maverick lock-on, IR pointers, or other NVG compatible marking devices. Pilots should exercise caution and possess a high level of target situational awareness when relying on a single target cue to confirm target location.
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ST4:
Globalsecurity.org suggests that A10 squadrons in the theatre as of March 17, 2003 included the 190th FS (Idaho ANG), 172nd FS (Michigan ANG), 81st FS (regular USAF) and 75th FS (also regular). I have seen a google-cached news report from the Idaho Press-Tribune that states the aircraft were from the 190th, i.e. were ANG.
I have no personal knowledge of the exact differences in ANG, reserve and regular USAF training/readiness. One suspects that ANG pilots would not fly as much (i.e., not on a daily basis) as full-time USAF pilots, but that's only my assumption.
Globalsecurity.org suggests that A10 squadrons in the theatre as of March 17, 2003 included the 190th FS (Idaho ANG), 172nd FS (Michigan ANG), 81st FS (regular USAF) and 75th FS (also regular). I have seen a google-cached news report from the Idaho Press-Tribune that states the aircraft were from the 190th, i.e. were ANG.
I have no personal knowledge of the exact differences in ANG, reserve and regular USAF training/readiness. One suspects that ANG pilots would not fly as much (i.e., not on a daily basis) as full-time USAF pilots, but that's only my assumption.
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It's a sad fact that blue on blue's still occur, but whenever there is war, and confusion, errors are bound to happen.
To criticise the pilots, from 1g, at the comfort of your anonymous desktop, when you have never done hot CAS yourself, is a questionable thing to do. The A-10 is a complete CAS platform; that is all they train to do, they are damn good at it, and if they are making errors then these are errors that anyone could make.
The unsavoury thing here is the lack of IFF technology that could easily be employed, and the fact that the Forward Air Controller thought he knew that there were no friendlies in the area. All the parties concerned did what they thought was the right thing to do, at the time. That is all we can ask of people who's lives are in danger themselves. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.
Blue on blues can be mitigated against with technology, and this is something that the MOD needs to invest in heavily, and urgently.
My thoughts are with Lance Corporal Hull's family.
To criticise the pilots, from 1g, at the comfort of your anonymous desktop, when you have never done hot CAS yourself, is a questionable thing to do. The A-10 is a complete CAS platform; that is all they train to do, they are damn good at it, and if they are making errors then these are errors that anyone could make.
The unsavoury thing here is the lack of IFF technology that could easily be employed, and the fact that the Forward Air Controller thought he knew that there were no friendlies in the area. All the parties concerned did what they thought was the right thing to do, at the time. That is all we can ask of people who's lives are in danger themselves. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.
Blue on blues can be mitigated against with technology, and this is something that the MOD needs to invest in heavily, and urgently.
My thoughts are with Lance Corporal Hull's family.
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There are 3 pages here full of opinion, very few of which hit right at the heart of the matter; namely, what can we do to ensure that in modern-day conflicts we avoid, to the absolute very best of our ability, fratricide. No body wants to kill our own, you could call it murder! Did the pilots of the two A-10s want to go out that day and do this? No, they didn't.....whatever is said, they didn't. Their reaction on finding out they had just been part of a blue-on-blue, regardless of the words or manner they used, proves this. The pilot(s) in question were exceptionally remorseful.
What we need to ensure is that we learn from all of this horrible event. Investment in robust technologies, available to ALL in the battlespace (aircraft, ships, soliders etc) that show up-to-date information on the situation is vital to prevent this in future. Yes it exists, but generally it is only afforded to US units (ironically in this case). CAS, by its very definition, happens 'Close' to our own ground forces and requires a certain discipline on everyone's part; from the transcript there is confusion, not least caused by the guy on the ground. Nobody has really mentioned his part in all this though as the pilot is the last link in the chain of events; take away any of these people involved and the outcome may have been different - who do you apportion blame to? I think the correct question is 'WHAT' do you apportion blame to! Blue-on-blue usually results from a situation of confusion and pressure, both of which were present here. A time-critical situation requiring split-second decision making, albeit leaving enough time to accurately bring weapons to bear can, does, and always will result in errors from time to time.
Military history is littered with mistakes, but overwhelmed with great triumphs and decisive victories. They all come at a cost and my condolences still remain with the families all over the world who have lost their own. If there have been untruths spoken of to the family of the L/Cpl then that is unexcusable and is a bare-faced lie - THAT is the real issue here!
BD
What we need to ensure is that we learn from all of this horrible event. Investment in robust technologies, available to ALL in the battlespace (aircraft, ships, soliders etc) that show up-to-date information on the situation is vital to prevent this in future. Yes it exists, but generally it is only afforded to US units (ironically in this case). CAS, by its very definition, happens 'Close' to our own ground forces and requires a certain discipline on everyone's part; from the transcript there is confusion, not least caused by the guy on the ground. Nobody has really mentioned his part in all this though as the pilot is the last link in the chain of events; take away any of these people involved and the outcome may have been different - who do you apportion blame to? I think the correct question is 'WHAT' do you apportion blame to! Blue-on-blue usually results from a situation of confusion and pressure, both of which were present here. A time-critical situation requiring split-second decision making, albeit leaving enough time to accurately bring weapons to bear can, does, and always will result in errors from time to time.
Military history is littered with mistakes, but overwhelmed with great triumphs and decisive victories. They all come at a cost and my condolences still remain with the families all over the world who have lost their own. If there have been untruths spoken of to the family of the L/Cpl then that is unexcusable and is a bare-faced lie - THAT is the real issue here!
BD