Army Door Gunners to be Re-Streamed.
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Army Door Gunners to be Re-Streamed.
At a secret Hants AB it is rumoured that Army DGs will be re-streamed to take on the role of ramp-rats on the CH47 and Me3; therefore, releasing cmn to man other platforms. Anyone care to expand?
Other platforms being SK (SAR and CHF) and the Puma.
Other platforms being SK (SAR and CHF) and the Puma.
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AAC Doorgunners have been underused, and underpaid for years. With the minimum of training they will be good SH Crewmen on medium/heavy lift helicopters and they will get respect that they are not used to from AAC frontenders.
I am not a troll though it may sound like I am fishing, but I am SH who has worked in a joint environment that included cross pollination of expertise. ....and I was very impressed with some of the AAC guys that I worked with, whilst appalled at the way they were treated from within. Give them flying pay, give them a job in the crew environment, and see how much more efficient the crew can operate, and perhaps most important of all, SAFER!!
The only thing that disappointed me about 1 guy in particular, is that his loyalty to his service exceeded his flying ambition and desire for rank.
I am not a troll though it may sound like I am fishing, but I am SH who has worked in a joint environment that included cross pollination of expertise. ....and I was very impressed with some of the AAC guys that I worked with, whilst appalled at the way they were treated from within. Give them flying pay, give them a job in the crew environment, and see how much more efficient the crew can operate, and perhaps most important of all, SAFER!!
The only thing that disappointed me about 1 guy in particular, is that his loyalty to his service exceeded his flying ambition and desire for rank.
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they will get respect that they are not used to from AAC frontenders
Whooa Tiger!
You'll find the front enders give the chaps the utmost amount of respect. The people who haven't in the past were the brass. Not paying them and generally using and abusing them.
We have finally made it a proper trade within the Corps at long last. Hopefully the days of a chap doing one day as an ADG and the next back on the bowser park are gone.
How can anyone flying in combat...do anything but forge a bond with the other guys flying around in the same coffin with them?
You may eat in different messes...but if all goes to crap one day....you will be together in the pile of scrap metal.
No class differences there.
Course....while you are stretched out on yer bunk, those guys are cleaning weapons, maintaining the aircraft, standing guard, and other duties.
Give'em a break when you can.
You may eat in different messes...but if all goes to crap one day....you will be together in the pile of scrap metal.
No class differences there.
Course....while you are stretched out on yer bunk, those guys are cleaning weapons, maintaining the aircraft, standing guard, and other duties.
Give'em a break when you can.
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inimum of training they will be good SH Crewmen
Ratty,
I have friends made almost 40 years ago when we flew combat missions in Vietnam and Cambodia. Despite the rank differences, over time we developed a bond that transcends military formality requirements. I remained an Officer and they remained enlisted soldiers but it was not rank alone that engendered the strong trust and repect we felt for the other while serving together. I looked to these folks as being professionals, good at what they did and someone I could rely upon to maintain the aircraft, crew the aircraft, and in the worst of cases stand shoulder to shoulder with me if confronted with a need to fight on the ground.
These men earned my deepest respect and trust because of who they were, how they performed their duties, and their good spirits when we all faced the same dangers together as a crew. We faced the same risks, ate the same food, drank from the same tin cup sometimes but we did so as a crew not individuals.
I am going to have lunch with four of them this coming Friday....and I look to them as brothers not as subordinates from past times. We will certainly talk about old times...laugh at the funny things....re-live some of the exciting times....talk of old friends that are no longer with us.
Shared risk brings people close together. Bonds forged in combat remain strong.
I was lucky to serve with some very good people, quite ordinary most of them until a need for a special act arose then they became extra-ordinary in their response.
A young Flight Engineer in my unit got out of a crashed Chinook carrying a large number of Vietnamese soldiers. He realized the aircraft was on fire and would be consumed quickly. He made repeated trips into the burning aircraft and dragged many injured people out of the burning aircraft. He continued to do so until the aircraft exploded and he burned to death inside the wreckage.
One can only admire brave men like that and I consider myself to be very fortunate to have been allowed to fly with men of that quality.
I have friends made almost 40 years ago when we flew combat missions in Vietnam and Cambodia. Despite the rank differences, over time we developed a bond that transcends military formality requirements. I remained an Officer and they remained enlisted soldiers but it was not rank alone that engendered the strong trust and repect we felt for the other while serving together. I looked to these folks as being professionals, good at what they did and someone I could rely upon to maintain the aircraft, crew the aircraft, and in the worst of cases stand shoulder to shoulder with me if confronted with a need to fight on the ground.
These men earned my deepest respect and trust because of who they were, how they performed their duties, and their good spirits when we all faced the same dangers together as a crew. We faced the same risks, ate the same food, drank from the same tin cup sometimes but we did so as a crew not individuals.
I am going to have lunch with four of them this coming Friday....and I look to them as brothers not as subordinates from past times. We will certainly talk about old times...laugh at the funny things....re-live some of the exciting times....talk of old friends that are no longer with us.
Shared risk brings people close together. Bonds forged in combat remain strong.
I was lucky to serve with some very good people, quite ordinary most of them until a need for a special act arose then they became extra-ordinary in their response.
A young Flight Engineer in my unit got out of a crashed Chinook carrying a large number of Vietnamese soldiers. He realized the aircraft was on fire and would be consumed quickly. He made repeated trips into the burning aircraft and dragged many injured people out of the burning aircraft. He continued to do so until the aircraft exploded and he burned to death inside the wreckage.
One can only admire brave men like that and I consider myself to be very fortunate to have been allowed to fly with men of that quality.
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Getting back to the initial thread,
What a cracking idea. JNCO's doing what is currently the preserve of SNCO and WO NCA.
Next we might achieve SNCO pilots doing the job of comissioned RAF pilots. Then we would truly have a joint system with a proper rank pyramid. Arent there already army WO's in RAF/Joint posts? (CFS(H))
Careful or it might catch on.
HEDP
What a cracking idea. JNCO's doing what is currently the preserve of SNCO and WO NCA.
Next we might achieve SNCO pilots doing the job of comissioned RAF pilots. Then we would truly have a joint system with a proper rank pyramid. Arent there already army WO's in RAF/Joint posts? (CFS(H))
Careful or it might catch on.
HEDP
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[QUOTE][Next we might achieve SNCO pilots doing the job of comissioned RAF pilots. Then we would truly have a joint system with a proper rank pyramid. Arent there already army WO's in RAF/Joint posts? (CFS(H))[QUOTE]
HEDP,
As a 'young' SNCO in 1984 I was part of a 2-man crew on a Puma that had a WO1 pilot. Also, not that long ago, we saw the last Wessex MPilot retire from flying duties (1979?).
The RAF's pilot selection process is still geared around recruiting FJ wannabees for the reasons that have hitherto been mentioned in other threads. It'll happen one day, market forces will see to that.
HEDP,
As a 'young' SNCO in 1984 I was part of a 2-man crew on a Puma that had a WO1 pilot. Also, not that long ago, we saw the last Wessex MPilot retire from flying duties (1979?).
The RAF's pilot selection process is still geared around recruiting FJ wannabees for the reasons that have hitherto been mentioned in other threads. It'll happen one day, market forces will see to that.
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He wasnt a WO1 Puma pilot for long though, his commisioning certificate was in the post. Top pilot though, I flew the 'Dambuster' route with him starting overhead Soest and concluding with flying past/through/ over the twin towers of the Mohne Dam at about 
feet. Was winter, and not too many folk around, a memorable sortie.
The best of times, never to be repeated with 3 crew Ops.
feet. Was winter, and not too many folk around, a memorable sortie.The best of times, never to be repeated with 3 crew Ops.
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Conversion to type would sound like a plan as there is not much need for Night triple underslinging on Lynx.
Remember, they are Army Rear Crewman now, not 'just' Door Gunners.
Are RAF NCA a little concerned their 'kingdom' may be invaded by mere JNCO's?
Could it spell the slippery slope for SNCO rearcrew if it is proven that AAC Rearcrew are just as capable for probably half the pay?
Remember, they are Army Rear Crewman now, not 'just' Door Gunners.
Are RAF NCA a little concerned their 'kingdom' may be invaded by mere JNCO's?
Could it spell the slippery slope for SNCO rearcrew if it is proven that AAC Rearcrew are just as capable for probably half the pay?
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Which is why I said 'Conversion to type would be a good start'. Ie, they will be trained on specifics that they have not covered before on the new type.
If a brand spanking new plastic Sgt can do it, why not an experienced NCO?
If a brand spanking new plastic Sgt can do it, why not an experienced NCO?
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Tongue in cheek re the plastic Sgt comment. I know quite a few NCA are blokes who have spent a number of years in ground trades. A throw back from my father who was a plumber Warrant. He saw them as 'back door mess members. 
Some of the best people I ignore are crab SNCO aircrew.
You can't join straight in as NCO pilot.
Minimum rank for starting the course is Cpl with recommendations for Sgt.
Chaps who start the course tend to have at least 5 years experience under their belt. Thats usually the minimum. Par is about 9 years.
I don't think anyone was implying that AAC rearcrew would just jump onto the SH force without undergoing some sort of conversion.
Some of the best people I ignore are crab SNCO aircrew.
You can't join straight in as NCO pilot.
Minimum rank for starting the course is Cpl with recommendations for Sgt.
Chaps who start the course tend to have at least 5 years experience under their belt. Thats usually the minimum. Par is about 9 years.
I don't think anyone was implying that AAC rearcrew would just jump onto the SH force without undergoing some sort of conversion.