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UK military pay rise 2007

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UK military pay rise 2007

Old 7th Mar 2007, 14:41
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Tubelaunched

Good work on those figures but as long as the AAC protects whomever it was that got the sums wrong then I'm happy, because I wouldnt wish him/her to look silly as I'd rather everyone just up sticks and left. Smacks a bit of upper echelons once again looking after one of its own. I reiterate a statement made to me which I mentioned on the FRI thread: Quote: "You NCO's were lucky to have got it at all" Unquote!
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 19:10
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Jez845 and Boomboy

FRI 1 has gone in toto. FRI 2 will be paid to Lt Cdrs and above who reach IPP between 1 Apr 07 and 31 Mar 10 if they are on FTC only.

Si
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 20:36
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So,
Lets have a look at the reasoning behind the Senior Service. Forgive the thick Pongo, but who exactly are they trying to retain and for what reason?
So all of the Lt Cdrs that had already reached their IPP before the 1 Apr 07 dont get the 'Senior Officer' FRI and those that are still Lts dont get anything at all now unless they manage to get promoted and selected for new commission (is that the inference with FTC - sorry not too sure what that is, but gather a permanent career shiney bum/exec profile) by Mar 10.
So a very specific target audience indeed by the RN for their 'Pinch Point'. Some have already blown it and are probably packing bags and others are nowhere near IPP or promotion - and as the junior joes on the Sqn will just stag on between Basra and Bastion.
Those left now enter the Big Brother House for promotion. On your marks, get set.... go! I can see the RN poster rubbing his hand with glee as those that want the dosh will now sell their souls for any job to get the right profile.
Dont get me wrong - there is obviously a plan there from the RN and at least it knows the age group, experience and type of people it wants to retain.
The AAC have done something very similar - or answer B!
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Old 7th Mar 2007, 22:51
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Just make sure that you know what this FRI means before you get carried away by the £££. You'll spend the 5 years return of service in a ground appointment!
We recognise the requirement to retain Career Stream Aircrew and welcome the intention that those taking the FRI should occupy Flying-Related posts.
For "Flying-Related", read "Ground Appointment"!

If you don't get further promotion and therefore decide to leave at the end of those 5 years, you'll find it much more difficult to enter the airlines aged 45ish with no recent flying experience.

Moreover, anyone hoping to get the new FRI in a couple of years time should remember what happened to the NCA FRI and not bank too heavily on getting it this time round.

Overall, the PA spine have a much better deal if you're on the new pension scheme as well. I think that's why the AFPRB said:

In recommending the FRI, we request annual updates on proposed work on pension arrangements between the Professional Aviator Pay Spine and the Career Stream, developing sustainable experience profiles, improving numbers through the training pipeline and a cost benefit analysis.
That's a terribly written sentence and I'm not quite sure what it means, but I think it hints that the AFPRB realise that making flying pay pensionable for everyone is the correct, long-term answer.

Last edited by LFFC; 7th Mar 2007 at 23:39.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 11:19
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Bit of a flap around the AAC today

Tube Launched, I am sure the figures you quote have something to do with the flap running through all AAC RHQ's today. JHC have requested a full and concise breakdown of Lynx pilots in the Corps. At least one of the regiments has included some guy's who are on AH LSN's to bolster their figures up a bit. Corrupt or what?
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Old 9th Mar 2007, 02:07
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Thumbs down £59k (after tax), not nearly enough.

So is that the extra £50k at the end of the five years' commitment? Or £100k (minus tax and NI) up front? Must say, I agree D-IFFers; guys on staff college or in the boarding school trap will take the cash and be jolly happy. Nonetheless, given that Easy (for example) have reportedly suggested fast-track command for suitably qualified RAF chaps, with a salary of £75-80k plus the pension... is there a choice? Other than Virgin, ofcourse, who are hiring again..
While the FRI, @ £100k sounds like a lot of wonga, and might put a healthly dent in the mortgage; it really is not when factored over 5 (or 20/25) years.
As a Sqn Ldr (ME) Pilot, pondering the Stay/Go question, I have done a quick and dirty Cost/Benefit calc.
Here is a quick summary of my observations :
  • If you go for the maximum commutation option (the only sensible choice), it does not matter when you leave, the gratuity amount is the same. So no advantage in staying.
  • As a mid term (4 year) Sqn Ldr, for the five years extra that you would serve, you lose £50k of pension payments with commutation, (or £65k without)!
    So you're either £9k up (or £6k down), temporarily. So slightly up (or down).
  • If you decide to play the promotion / staff college gamble, and stay 5 years just to see, the cost of delaying (say Virgin Atl) Captaincy by 5 years will cost you £100k, plus about £5k per year before and after (10 to 15 years). Massive disadvantage in staying, if the gamble does not pay off.
  • All in all that is over £200k, so £300k before tax.
  • However, factoring in a 2% pension increase, standard (VA) pay-rises etc, this RFI breaks even at age 110, optomistic for many of us.

    The RFI actually needs to be £400k (before Tax) in order to break even at aged 80, or £500k to break even at age 60.
    'nough said .
In sum, the FRI is merely a sweetener for those who are intent in staying anyway. And good for you, you deserve it for putting up with the carp (bombs and bullets, lack of support from Govt, poor eqpt, waste and mediocre leadership) for another 5 (and probably 15) more years.
So, while a tough decision , I'm otta here in 300 days (150 for my last duty day, on that big white Gozome 747 )
MadAxeMan (>|<)
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Old 9th Mar 2007, 16:00
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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PenBox, you you get your facts right.............. That's not what the return was about! Anyway you don't hold a Lynx LSN, but it was all about finding out what all Lynx jocks are being employed as at the moment, if there not in current flying posts. Because yes there looks like a big shortage of Lynx jocks.
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Old 9th Mar 2007, 21:21
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AxeMan...thanks for doing the hard work for me! You beat me by 50 days or so...£59k in my bank account would be nice and could, in all likelihood, be doubled with a bit of a punt in the property market over 5 years. Even then, the prospect of an OOA and a couple of ground tours doesn't really excite. Never say never, but...
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Old 10th Mar 2007, 20:27
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Well,
Given that we're all so undermanned, how about a radical pay reform:
Pay each Unit at its Planned Strength, then any undermanning means those doing the work get the difference as a bonus for their efforts. Sounds fair to me.
Uncle G

Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 11th Mar 2007 at 17:14.
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Old 11th Mar 2007, 13:44
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Paying you a daily rate pro rata for any leave you lose should have broadly the same effect, with appropriate checks in place to ensure that people can't deliberately avoid taking leave.
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Old 11th Mar 2007, 13:53
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Paying you a daily rate pro rata for any leave you lose should have broadly the same effect, with appropriate checks in place to ensure that people can't deliberately avoid taking leave.
I asked that specific question to the AFPRB a couple of years ago and was politley but firmly told by the Chairman that there was no chance of it happening because it would lead to weak management of leave.

I did turn that one round and ask what about those units deployed on ops where there is no chance of taking all their leave and where because of that the bosses are refusing all applications to carry over leave in excess of 10 days as there is no chance of taking it without impacting on unit efficiency. Again, firmly refused. Unfortunately, I know of units where it is still going on, and guys are losing leave through no fault of their own, just purely down to the length of time they are away (I wonder if that counts as weak management of leave by the high paid help ? I suspect not somehow).

It would be interesting to see just how much the MOD is saving / making through this policy. If it happened to me (may still yet - my application is in at the moment!) I would consider billing the MOD direct for my services for the leave I have lost / free labour they have gained.
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Old 11th Mar 2007, 15:02
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - Uncle G. How many times have you been told to stop thinking logically. I mean, that would actually be of benefit to someone, and we can't have that.

I remember once in my illustrious career qualifying for substitution pay. MOD fought tooth and nail to avoid paying until my then boss gave someone a blast. It got paid shortly afterwards [backdated].

Back to Uncle G's suggestion. Brilliant idea, but isn't there a teenzy weenzy chance they are using undermanning to SAVE money?

Only once did I ever hear that decisions ARE to be made to the benefit of the individual [CinC STC - can't remember which one, though].
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Old 11th Mar 2007, 17:20
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But surely not FJJP

Did you not see Des Brooon on the Beeb this morning?? He said that the manpower and its welfare is the single most important thing!

How i laughed, along with the other 12 people left in the Forces
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Old 11th Mar 2007, 19:30
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Thank for the response

Brassemup, Wow quite a response!.. The LSN I hold is completely immaterial and you don’t know what LSN, if any, that I hold. You are obviously in the know, so perhaps some honest accounting of personnel and expenditure is called for rather than jumping to the defence of those who should know better. It all comes out in the end!
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Old 12th Mar 2007, 18:57
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DB - think we are both correct. All applications to carry over excess leave denied due to individuals not having enough time next leave year to take it. Oh yes and the blatant admission about it looking bad against the performance targets.

Rant on: It absolutely stinks. Of course, taking this approach will make people further up the food chain look good, but the high paid help in the ivory towers will just carry on regardless - "oh look there isn't a leave problem, nobody has carried over more than 15 days".

I wonder what the reaction would be if I sent them a bill for the days I couldn't take due to ops that they won't let me carry over? It might even be worth the one-way hats-on! I don't expect to get things for free when I employ contractors and the like to come into Melchett Towers; why the hell should the MOD expect its people to work for free. Rant off.

That feels a bit better.
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Old 12th Mar 2007, 20:42
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Melchett

Calm down old boy! One of the most important Performance Indicators is "Leave Lost" (untaken excess leave which is lost due to refusal of an application, or no application being made, to carry over). This is actually shown to your JPA Line Manager as an "average days per year" figure on your leave record. I presume it is there to "encourage" him/her in fulfilling his/her responsibility, as your manager, to try to ensure that you can take your leave. Not a full answer, I admit, and of little use if you spend two-thirds of the year on ops, but it is there!

Regards

Ginseng
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Old 12th Mar 2007, 22:02
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Ginseng - let me guess, it's only an advert dear!

To be honest, I'm not so sure that they will bat an eyelid when it comes to the days lost on the leave record - the hierachy are taking the view that despite the op tempo, it is simply a case of mismanaging leave.

Well perhaps, but it is something of a kick in the teeth when you are forced to cancel pre-booked and auth'd leave because you have to do an unplanned short notice OOA to help out and are then told that you haven't managed your leave and will loose almost 3 weeks. And to then be told it is your fault .... it's just not on Sir

The bosses really aren't helping themselves with policies like this, and for many it may well end up being the final nail in the coffin. For the rest of us, it just means whatever good will we had left will be wiped out in a stroke, and we will play hardball to match the Execs gratuitously unfair behaviour - after all, how often do you see those that make the rules disappearing on a) ops or b) leave?

That said I had a chat with the Admin office about it this afternoon, and our very helpful Cpl passed on quite a useful tip - if only I'd known this earlier:

For those of you that don't realise (and until 1500 today, that included me!) POTL is valid for a year from when you get back off ops. If it looks like there is a chance of missing out on carrying over leave due the Boss wanting to look good, take annual leave rather than POTL when you get back of ops until you can be sure you won't bounce the 15 days carry over limit. Only then should, start on your POTL, which will be carried over automatically to the next leave year without being included in the 15 day limit. It's all a bit academic in my case, but hopefully this little snippet might be of some use to some of you out there.
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Old 12th Mar 2007, 22:22
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Not too sure about your PODL idea Melchett. I came back from a 4month OOA and used 7 of the 9 days PODL. Yes it is valid for 1 year, like you say, but I lost the other 2 days 12 months after returning to the mainland. Admin mistake on my behalf, but I did lose it.

FbS
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Old 12th Mar 2007, 22:36
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FBS,

That's what I said, POTL is valid for a year after returning from ops. If you don't take your POTL within the 12 months, you will have a hard time arguing your corner, but if you know the rules for POTL, you can play the system perfectly legally to ensure that you don't lose any annual leave and you get your POTL.

So for example, you return from 4 months OOA in Jan 07 and have 9 days POTL on top of say 29 days remaining annual leave (you've been away lots). You basically have 2 months to get your leave down to 15 days carry over or risk losing it.

In this case, there is no point in taking your POTL (as I found out today) because it is valid until Jan 08 and wouldn't feature in any excess leave calculations at the end of the leave year in Mar/Apr. Instead, you take 14 days annual leave to get you down to the 15 day carry over limit where you won't lose any, and only once you have reached that point start eating into the POTL which you can take at any point until Jan 08. And there you have it, system played, you get time off after ops, use annual leave that you might otherwise lose and carry over 24 days annual leave AND POTL

Simple really in hindsight, but I wonder how many people - as I said, myself included, are/were not aware of the POTL rules and are faced with losing leave because they took POTL rather than annual leave when they came back off ops? Until today, this is the first time that the whole POTL thing had been explained properly. However, I am now wondering whether you can change things retrospectively - ie get the Sqn clerks to add your POTL back to your leave record and take off an equivalent amount of annual leave - I suspect not, but it may be worth a try if you have taken POTL instead of annual leave and are now faced with losing days. Like I said, if the Execs want to play hard rules, then I will do everything I can to play the system and exploit loopholes. Will give it a bash and keep you posted.
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Old 12th Mar 2007, 22:52
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Melchett

The clerks are going to love you, suggesting that one with just one day left before JPA goes of the air for 2 weeks! Good idea though.

Seriously though, I think you are being hard on your "Execs", whoever they are, by suggesting that they won't let you carry over your excess untaken leave in order to "make themselves look good". The very fact that you will be shown as having lost leave should have just the opposite affect, since it suggests poor leave management, even if that isn't fair. These guys don't make the leave rules. They are bound by JSP 760, which says, in effect, that they can only authorise carry-over of excess untaken leave if there is a reasonable chance of it being taken in the next leave year and that it could not have been taken this year for service reasons. In practice, that means that you have to have booked the leave and had it cancelled, with certification that the cancellation was for service reasons. We all tend to do ourselves no favours by planning leave when we know we are going to be free to take it, whereas the sure-fire way around this problem is to book it for when you want to take it, and then cancel it when you have to. Any Exec worth his salt should understand this and should have no problem with approving your application and then cancelling it. As you say, play the system!

Regards

Ginseng
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