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Army route checks the RAF

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Army route checks the RAF

Old 24th Jan 2007, 10:57
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU View Post
[SIZE=2] "The PRO is a nominated senior military officer at the Lt Cdr/Maj/Sqn Ldr/ level travelling on the flight [/FONT]
As a JO returning from the Falklands in the early 90s I was made the PRO, despite there being alot of SOs on board. I rather got the impression that it was a menial admin duty that they couldn't be bothered with, & that there was little to do provided the ac didn't divert when I would have been the liason between pax & crew for hotac etc. The job was 'sold' to me by a mover on the basis that I would get a whole row of seats to myself to sleep on! Don't remember being asked to complete any forms though, & certainly noone complained to me.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 11:04
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Just in case anyone out there wishes that RAF AT would provide a service more like the airlines, just look at the pig's ear that BA made of the its baggage handling when the chips were down and looks like never resolving properly. We should remember that for the AT fleet, and for virtually every other part of HM Armed Forces, the chips are down for most of the time. And nobody goes on strike.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 11:09
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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And therein lies the problem - the SO2's DO see it as beneath them as I mentioned above...but in my experience the quickest ones to whinge when things don't go their way. You can't have it both ways chaps...we give you a forum and method in which to comment and then you don't use it...! And go and think up half-baked plans on route-checking the RAF!!

In the absence of an SO2 (or if they refuse to do it) the task of PRO is quite often given to an SO3. Personally, I would like to see the PRO be an experienced SNCO or even WO (if any on board) as when it comes to the task of arranging HOTAC and Transport for diverted/ delayed Pax they would have a bit more clout about them than a dis-interested Major for instance. And at the end of the day if this scenario did occur then said Major is just going to nominate a SNCO to do it for him anyway!!

When I used to brief the PRO halfway into their journey at the stop off on the rock they used to go wide-eyed when I told them it was their responsibility to get involved in the event of a diversion on the next leg.

Just for the record as well, the PRO doesn't strictly have to organise HOTAC etc from scratch - the DMO at Andover is contacted and sets the wheels in motion, the PRO is just there to be the 'man on the ground' and point of contact in effect. Crew won't do it as they need their beddy-byes...(they go to get steaming in local hostelry!)

CC
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 11:26
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott View Post
As a JO returning from the Falklands in the early 90s I was made the PRO, despite there being alot of SOs on board. I rather got the impression that it was a menial admin duty that they couldn't be bothered with, & that there was little to do provided the ac didn't divert when I would have been the liason between pax & crew for hotac etc.
I think you will find that was a 'character building' activity to 'broaden your experience'...
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 12:43
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BluntedAtBirth View Post
I think you will find that was a 'character building' activity to 'broaden your experience'...
Yeah, right on, one I neither needed or wanted having just spent 6 months receiving the crews in and out.

Yes it is a chore. Reporting how the system works is one thing. Sorting out a potential mess on the ground on diversion might be good experience but as a one-off suddenly expected to become OIC troops of various ranks, services and others - no thanks. They want a ground loadie - then fly one on the sortie.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 13:52
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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But therein lies the problem again...

It is seen as a chore and therefore doesn't get done properly. The first time the people who can get things changed for the better get to hear about any problem is if they happen to visit this website or aarse for example...

Again I put it to the floor that there is already a forum available for checking and commenting on issues with AT but it doesn't get used. But it is not the fault of the PRO system, it is the fault of those nominated to do the job of PRO failing in their task...

If as an SO2 you gave an airman a job and he failed to do it would you take further action? Of course you would. So why in that case can responsibility be shirked in the case of PRO duties? Duty of Care to passengers is a responsibility of not only the crew but also the passengers nominated representative - the PRO.

Failing to submit that report, even if a 'nil comment' return on the form should be an offence like any other dereliction of duty IMHO.



But what can you do eh?

CC
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 14:18
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure this ignorance is across the board, and not just vested with those fortunate enough to be selected for the task. As frequent flyers will testify, there seems to be little information about this subject in the service domain, apart from as CC rightly states in public forums. Perhaps a glossy leaflet at the airhead would alleviate the problem? And perhaps a survey to complete en-route to hand in to the PRO? It would be something to do on long flights to the various sh1tholes we seem to visit as well.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 14:25
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Comp Charlie View Post
But therein lies the problem again...

it is the fault of those nominated to do the job of PRO failing in their task...

If as an SO2 you gave an airman a job and he failed to do it would you take further action?
But who gives the PRO the job? Is it someone in his chain of command? Does he have command responsibility over the passengers, including those senior to him?

If he does an immaculate job, who knows, worse, who cares?

The job is dished out like a lottery to the person who moves slowest. It has no status attached like priority boarding or disembarking it is, in short, quite rightly perceived as a chore.

Why not do the job properly? Dispense with air steward and nominate 10 squaddies to wear oinnies and run up and down the aircraft - supervised of course.

Let's get rid of baggae handlers, there should be enough fit and able bodied on each flight.

No, instead of having a single joed PRO issue invididual comment forms. Can you imagine Thomas Cook pulling Joe Bloggs out of the queue at Gatwick and telling him he is responsible for collecting complaints from all the other holiday makers?

You get what you pay for and you don't pay a PRO who might have spent 6 months overseas doing G*d knows what and only wants to get home, no bull.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 17:41
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Wader

"It has no status attached like priority boarding or disembarking it is, in short, quite rightly perceived as a chore."

Last time I looked being in the military meant when given a feckin job you [email protected]@dy well cracked on with it, and did'nt sit around wittering like a little school girl about how it is a chore and if I do it can I get on first


As regards pongoes running up and down in pinnies doing the stewards job I assume they will also be given the pre requisite training to assist in evacuating an aircraft full of pax safely in 90 seconds, they will also be trained to operate all the onboard safety equipment, they will also be able to.......the list goes on

Have a word with yourself fella
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 20:32
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally posted by BluntedAtBirth:
Well there has been a battlegroup in Afganistan for nearly a year and we haven't won yet - should we send the RAF Regiment over to QA the Army/RM processes? What about Northern Ireland - Op BANNER has lasted 38 years - slackers.
You are hardly comparing like with like there now are you. I can't believe that the RAF Regiment can even spell AQ.
In case no one has told you; Afghanistan and Northern Ireland are geographically bigger than the mortar base plate footprint of even the largest RAF Station, or is it Base now ?
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 22:04
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Talking

Originally posted by BluntedAtBirth:
Well there has been a battlegroup in Afganistan for nearly a year and we haven't won yet - should we send the RAF Regiment over to QA the Army/RM processes? What about Northern Ireland - Op BANNER has lasted 38 years - slackers.


Please feel free.... Forget the QA just come over and take over for a while that would be great cheers !!! Oh and OP Banner was a bit more than the odd patrol around the NAAFI bop in Aldergrove or Antrim.
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 08:24
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wader2 View Post
But who gives the PRO the job? Is it someone in his chain of command? Does he have command responsibility over the passengers, including those senior to him?
I believe (and am willing to be corrected) that the task of PRO is dished out on authority and request of DTMA Pax Policy which I believe is an SO1. Not sure why you would need command responsibility unless trying to make yourself look important - at the end of the day despite the servicibility record of the AT fleet and Charter diversions do not happen all that frequently and I imagine that when it does the Operating Crew DO actually take some responsibility. Therefore the real task of the PRO on most flights is to act as a conduit for the other passengers comments about the flight and report that back to the people who need to know about any problems (or God forbid - PRAISE). Like I said before, the same people who are quick enough to put their keyboard to use bitching about RAF AT on internet message boards are probably the same people who can't be arsed to do a PRO job properly if they were ever nominated.

If he does an immaculate job, who knows, worse, who cares?
the 150 plus other passengers will probably be quite grateful, but short of a public arse-kissing and a Mummys Special Soldier medal what point are you making? Surely you're not insecure enough to need special praise for fulfiling a necessary task involving helping people out?

The job is dished out like a lottery to the person who moves slowest. It has no status attached like priority boarding or disembarking it is, in short, quite rightly perceived as a chore.
Incorrect, the nomination of the PRO is done at the Flight Editing stage. A list of pax onboard the aircraft and their ranks is scrutinised and an SO2 (or if none on board a suitable junior) is nominated. On the cntrary to what you say here, the PRO is more often than not allocated a seat at the front of the aircraft (which helps the rest of the passengers identify him/her) and IF POSSIBLE maybe a couple of extra seats as a sweetener. Not sure why on earth priority boarding and disembarking is deemed worthwhile of a mention - the PRO is not a VIP.

Why not do the job properly? Dispense with air steward and nominate 10 squaddies to wear oinnies and run up and down the aircraft - supervised of course.
Now you are just being silly. Have you seen what pongos do the rims of cups after an officer asks them to make them a cup of tea?



Let's get rid of baggae handlers, there should be enough fit and able bodied on each flight.
And lets dispense with jet fuel as well - once we learn to harness the power of whinging to make aircraft fly we will be onto a right money saver...and there would be some right moaning from those members of the forces who have spent their entire career driving a desk with the heavist thing ever lifted being a cup of coffee.

No, instead of having a single joed PRO issue invididual comment forms. Can you imagine Thomas Cook pulling Joe Bloggs out of the queue at Gatwick and telling him he is responsible for collecting complaints from all the other holiday makers?
Joe Bloggs pays for his holiday flight and therefore is entitled to expect not to be bothered with stuff like this. You, however, fly for free to these glorious sunshine destinations covered by RAF AT routes. Its not much to ask to put a bit back in is it?

You get what you pay for and you don't pay a PRO who might have spent 6 months overseas doing G*d knows what and only wants to get home, no bull.
Oh God yeah I agree - the hardship of filling in an A4 sized sheet of paper with his thoughts on the flight and those comments from his fellow passengers and popping it into a pre-paid envelope and then having to seek out a postbox will cause immeasurable effort. Worse case scenario and there is a divert then the PRO may have to - God forbid - ensure all passengers have a room at a hotel (the booking will be done in advance by the DMO staff) and ensuring they all get on the bus the next morning by checking through a manifest. After 6 months in-theatre this may be the straw that breaks the camels back...

CC
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 08:57
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I was the SO2 PRO on the Falklands Airbridge in 93. I was also given a bag containing £20,000 to be delivered to FIAW!! We got delayed for two days in Ascension. I found the staff at Ascension to be very helpful and they did their best with the crappy resources they had. What was a pain, however, was the never ending stream of whinging Pax who all thought they were more important than the rest. We had some Falkland Island Government types on board who were trying to tell the staff that they were 'Air Rank' equivalent. It turned out they were nowhere near and so ended up sharing rooms like the rest of us. The Army, of course, lectured us all about how they would do it better.
Due to the delay, I actually had a fair amount of work to do and I found having the PRO as the single POC worked well (although I got my ear bashed from Dawn til Dusk).
The PRO job should not be seen as just a task. You can actually have a positive effect. I also learnt that talking to the Movers/Crew and associated staff in a polite, professional manner helped. They were all trying to do their best. It was some (most!) of the Pax who needed a good shoeing.
My reward? Extra seats all the way down and first one to be served din dins.
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 09:30
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Comp Charlie View Post
I....

Now you are just being silly. Have you seen what pongos do the rims of cups after an officer asks them to make them a cup of tea?

....
Probably something similar to what the RAF Movers do to the Army luggage once they get their hands on it !
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 10:24
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ratty1 View Post
According to the RAF Careers website Movements Controllers handle the loading and unloading of personnel and equipment, both on and off transport aircraft. A bit further down a mover has this to say "Now Iím dealing with the loading and unloading of aircraft, where I get to drive aircraft handling equipment and forklift trucks. I could be building baggage or freight pallets"
Its not much to ask you to get on with what you are paid to do is it?
I think you may have misinterpreted the quote here - this was aimed at Joe Bloggs being asked by Thomas Cook to collect complaints from the other passengers (like a PRO is asked to do), not the building of baggage pallets. Quite rightly this is a job the Movers do...

As for the Mover featured on the website (the lovely Katie) - she actually PVR'ed and got out the Mob about 5 years ago due to being disillusioned with the way things were going!!! You couldn't make it up - I wonder if she knows she may be responsible for selling the trade to people still!!

Can just add that the post made above from Wyler is spot on - at least someone on here "gets" it...

CC
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 10:26
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Army Mover View Post
Probably something similar to what the RAF Movers do to the Army luggage once they get their hands on it !
I don't think RAF Movers wipe their private parts on Army luggage!! Run over it with forklifts and send it to the wrong destination maybe...Ha Ha.

CC
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 15:48
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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My personal view on passengers is, your not paying for it, if you want to go home, shut the f**k up, stop moaning and let the crews get on with what they are paid to do. You would think that we purposely delay for hours so we can do a few more hours crew duty. How would the Army like it, if everytime they had a slight difficulty with an Op, it appeared in the news. We are doing our best with limited spares, overworked and very tired crews and jets.
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 09:36
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EmeraldToilet View Post
You are hardly comparing like with like there now are you. I can't believe that the RAF Regiment can even spell AQ.
In case no one has told you; Afghanistan and Northern Ireland are geographically bigger than the mortar base plate footprint of even the largest RAF Station, or is it Base now ?
Well, 34 hours before it got a bite and then 2 come along at once! I am familiar with said geography and my point is that I am comparing like complaint with like complaint. If you assume that the problems in the airbridge are down to 'fat, usless truckies/movers/techies etc' who don't deliver a 'service' simply because of ignorance and laziness, then you might also question how long it takes a Land Component to resolve low(ish) intensity conflicts. The methodology is discussed below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Now I am off for another happy morning spreading ever less military jam over ever more bread, I take it most of you will be joining me
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