Apache and Royal Marines
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SASless,
Do not worry - your eyes were not deceiving you. Of course I know that no SH crew would ever have pulled the mythical crew duty card (unless they were so fatigued from a previous op/sortie that it would have been more dangerous for them toactually strap in).
Dont be silly - it has taken us years to shake the 'whole cloud of crew duty off' and hopefully everyone knows the difference between fatigue management and crew duty.
Just to ensure that you and the crews reading this are 100% sure that there is absolutely no doubt in the participants bravery - no doubt at all - and I think that was made clear.
My mentioning of crew duty came in the same breath as u/s cabs, other jobs etc etc - because I wasn't there then there may be some extraneous circumstance surrounding the mission that prevented a more robust Combat Recovery plan from being planned and executed. As I freely admitted these other factors in the heat of battle just may make my post superflous and the crews may have been up continuosly for the last 48 hours or the aircraft were called and went u/s on start - who knows?
The fact is that from afar it appears that there are not the resources to conduct this kind of mission (I even dared to say Lynx in this immediate role). And as others have said, there are units fully trained and validated in this role - or was that just a 'box ticking' exercise to give the appearance of having the capability? Surely if there was any Theatre that required it then with the on going high tempo, high risk kinetic ops present over there then one could argue that a commander on the ground should have this capability at his disposal rather than relying on 2 AH to fly back in.
No no no.......I most certainly wasn't passing comment on the crews in the cockpit at the moment in time - very brave, very brave indeed - but rarely do I use the word humble and it was in that post.
Do not worry - your eyes were not deceiving you. Of course I know that no SH crew would ever have pulled the mythical crew duty card (unless they were so fatigued from a previous op/sortie that it would have been more dangerous for them toactually strap in).
Dont be silly - it has taken us years to shake the 'whole cloud of crew duty off' and hopefully everyone knows the difference between fatigue management and crew duty.
Just to ensure that you and the crews reading this are 100% sure that there is absolutely no doubt in the participants bravery - no doubt at all - and I think that was made clear.
My mentioning of crew duty came in the same breath as u/s cabs, other jobs etc etc - because I wasn't there then there may be some extraneous circumstance surrounding the mission that prevented a more robust Combat Recovery plan from being planned and executed. As I freely admitted these other factors in the heat of battle just may make my post superflous and the crews may have been up continuosly for the last 48 hours or the aircraft were called and went u/s on start - who knows?
The fact is that from afar it appears that there are not the resources to conduct this kind of mission (I even dared to say Lynx in this immediate role). And as others have said, there are units fully trained and validated in this role - or was that just a 'box ticking' exercise to give the appearance of having the capability? Surely if there was any Theatre that required it then with the on going high tempo, high risk kinetic ops present over there then one could argue that a commander on the ground should have this capability at his disposal rather than relying on 2 AH to fly back in.
No no no.......I most certainly wasn't passing comment on the crews in the cockpit at the moment in time - very brave, very brave indeed - but rarely do I use the word humble and it was in that post.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 19th Jan 2007 at 06:16.
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Folks, it seems that a mission emerged. The gents on site decided to do what they could NOW. Other assets apparently were not operational in the vicinity.
The tyrany of time and distance means you can't cover everything all the time. Lack of assets doesn't help.
Good on the lads that took it on themselves to get it done.
The tyrany of time and distance means you can't cover everything all the time. Lack of assets doesn't help.
Good on the lads that took it on themselves to get it done.
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MM4,
Dont worry, I think that we know that the days of RAF/SH v AH bashing have long gone and your points are all valid.
But hey guys, we were not there, have no idea what operational context all of this was in and therefore can say or do nothing else but recognise the heroic bravery as operators.
All of the rest of the UK armchair pontification is purely white noise and I am sure that those on the ground will have already conducted a thorough de-brief/After Action with the relevant findings/lessons passed onto to those that need to know and are in a position to truly influence the future based on all the facts that were there that day.
Dont worry, I think that we know that the days of RAF/SH v AH bashing have long gone and your points are all valid.
But hey guys, we were not there, have no idea what operational context all of this was in and therefore can say or do nothing else but recognise the heroic bravery as operators.
All of the rest of the UK armchair pontification is purely white noise and I am sure that those on the ground will have already conducted a thorough de-brief/After Action with the relevant findings/lessons passed onto to those that need to know and are in a position to truly influence the future based on all the facts that were there that day.
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I can assure all those that may be concerned about whether the CH47 crews were up for the job or not, that they were othrewise tasked at the time of the rescue. Unfortunately they can only cover one emergency at a time. They were, however, there in time to give medical aid once the extraction had taken place, and subsequently flew L/Cpl Ford back to the hospital. Please do not jump to conclusions as to why the SH boys were not there when the decision had to be made.
RIP L/Cpl Ford.
RIP L/Cpl Ford.
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And as others have said, there are units fully trained and validated in this role - or was that just a 'box ticking' exercise to give the appearance of having the capability?
FutureIsHelos,
Are you implying that the Lance Corporal was still alive when extracted - or merely that one or more of the rescuers required medical aid?
Are you implying that the Lance Corporal was still alive when extracted - or merely that one or more of the rescuers required medical aid?
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Only a fuc@ing journo could ask that question, in a public forum that could well be viewed by family, friends and colleagues. You should be ashamed of yourself............ t@@ser
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MaroonMan4,
You put it better than I could.
Official line remains that there are enough helicopters out there and the commander hasn't asked for any more.
Perhaps he hasn't, but I still find it hard to square with the fact that no helicopter with seats or room for a stretcher could be tasked to support an operation like this.
Paras who found themselves in the sh!t last summer have described to me calling up for air support and being told 'sorry, it's all busy'.
Is this really ok? Are you fellas just so used to doing so much with so little, getting by and hoping for the best, that nobody expects anything different any more?
To me it just seems very, very wrong.
Jacko, perhaps I can clarify a bit - it is thought LCpl Ford died instantly. Medics were required for four other men injured on the ground in initial assault, and extracted in the Vikings, I'm told.
Wishing them all a good recovery...
You put it better than I could.
Official line remains that there are enough helicopters out there and the commander hasn't asked for any more.
Perhaps he hasn't, but I still find it hard to square with the fact that no helicopter with seats or room for a stretcher could be tasked to support an operation like this.
Paras who found themselves in the sh!t last summer have described to me calling up for air support and being told 'sorry, it's all busy'.
Is this really ok? Are you fellas just so used to doing so much with so little, getting by and hoping for the best, that nobody expects anything different any more?
To me it just seems very, very wrong.
Jacko, perhaps I can clarify a bit - it is thought LCpl Ford died instantly. Medics were required for four other men injured on the ground in initial assault, and extracted in the Vikings, I'm told.
Wishing them all a good recovery...
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Notwithstanding the arguments about crew duty hours, lack of resources or whatever... the guys in theatre at the time did what good soldiers are trained to do.... use the best assets available to conduct an ad hoc, on the fly, quick rescue of a colleague they believed had been left behind in the melee.
No farting about waiting for some staff officer to make a decision some miles from the action, they saw a need, took stock of the assets immediately available, and executed a daring mission. I bet they were inundated with volunteers to strap themselves to the helos to go in and rescue L/Cpl Ford.
These guy adapted, improvised and overcame any shortfalls, not only does their bravery need applause, but their quick thinking and ability to plan such a mission. Getting in the sh
t if the mission would have gone wrong would have been the last thing these guys had on their minds.
No farting about waiting for some staff officer to make a decision some miles from the action, they saw a need, took stock of the assets immediately available, and executed a daring mission. I bet they were inundated with volunteers to strap themselves to the helos to go in and rescue L/Cpl Ford.
These guy adapted, improvised and overcame any shortfalls, not only does their bravery need applause, but their quick thinking and ability to plan such a mission. Getting in the sh
t if the mission would have gone wrong would have been the last thing these guys had on their minds.
Always Broken,
Just seeking clarification - since the post referred to seemed to be putting in the public domain a piece of (incorrect) information that really could have caused people distress.
Raising the idea that the Lance Corporal was not killed instantly really could cause the family, colleagues and friends anxiety and additional grief - questioning it was intended to get the truth confirmed. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
And I asked the question as an interested individual, and not as a journo, just as your reaction was, presumably, made in your capacity as a first-rate tw@t, and not in your official capacity as a C-130 Loadie.....
Just seeking clarification - since the post referred to seemed to be putting in the public domain a piece of (incorrect) information that really could have caused people distress.
Raising the idea that the Lance Corporal was not killed instantly really could cause the family, colleagues and friends anxiety and additional grief - questioning it was intended to get the truth confirmed. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
And I asked the question as an interested individual, and not as a journo, just as your reaction was, presumably, made in your capacity as a first-rate tw@t, and not in your official capacity as a C-130 Loadie.....
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Jacko,
I may well be a first rate **** but I am proud to say I am currently employed, and have been for the last 32 years in probably the most honourable profesion on the planet alonside some of the finest individuals a man could ever hope to meet
Just remind me what it is you do again:
And it's C130 "J" Loadie, a very important distinction
I may well be a first rate **** but I am proud to say I am currently employed, and have been for the last 32 years in probably the most honourable profesion on the planet alonside some of the finest individuals a man could ever hope to meet
Just remind me what it is you do again:
And it's C130 "J" Loadie, a very important distinction
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I'll just hijack the cat-fight thread for a moment to get back to the sub-thread started by MaroonMan4. If you take a big step back and look at the whole operation, you get a much better idea of the shortcuts, short measures and ineffective tactics our guys are forced to employ everyday because of lack of resources.
This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back. Not only are we knocked back, but the heroic rescue attempt that started this thread is as a direct result of not having the right support in place to start the job. I don't know what the right number of troops was, but it clearly wasn't 200. I don't know what level of Combat Support was needed, but it was clearly more than they actually got.
I don't take anything from the Taliban's ability to hold a well defended position, but these are British Armed Forces for Christ's sake. We spend whatever it is each year on Defence, and get knocked back by Omar and the boys because the guys in theatre have to do it on a shoestring and with less than the required amount of supporting equipment.
No wonder the Government spin machine is all over this. The balls of steel approach by our fighting men to recover a fallen comrade is a much better story than asking why he had to be a victim in the first place. Yes, I know that even if the place had been flattened by Air Power for an hour before the assault, there would still have been casualties, but it is easier to accept the loss when you are taking the objectives. Taking losses because you are going in undermanned and underequipped is a lot harder to swallow.
This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back. Not only are we knocked back, but the heroic rescue attempt that started this thread is as a direct result of not having the right support in place to start the job. I don't know what the right number of troops was, but it clearly wasn't 200. I don't know what level of Combat Support was needed, but it was clearly more than they actually got.
I don't take anything from the Taliban's ability to hold a well defended position, but these are British Armed Forces for Christ's sake. We spend whatever it is each year on Defence, and get knocked back by Omar and the boys because the guys in theatre have to do it on a shoestring and with less than the required amount of supporting equipment.
No wonder the Government spin machine is all over this. The balls of steel approach by our fighting men to recover a fallen comrade is a much better story than asking why he had to be a victim in the first place. Yes, I know that even if the place had been flattened by Air Power for an hour before the assault, there would still have been casualties, but it is easier to accept the loss when you are taking the objectives. Taking losses because you are going in undermanned and underequipped is a lot harder to swallow.
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This was an assault on a heavily defended enemy fortification that had been under close surveillance for the last 2 months or so (so we know the enemy strengths were confirmed and understood). We kick off 200 troops to take it and get knocked back.
Apologies if i have over simplified things here but my feeble little brain thinks - If it's a know enemy stronghold - **** it with a shed load of PW instead? Or have I missed something? Not wishing to impune the actions of real men, but given that it was a know enemy location better to stand off at 15000' and blow them to buggery? Again, no criticism on the RM intended.
Apologies if i have over simplified things here but my feeble little brain thinks - If it's a know enemy stronghold - **** it with a shed load of PW instead? Or have I missed something? Not wishing to impune the actions of real men, but given that it was a know enemy location better to stand off at 15000' and blow them to buggery? Again, no criticism on the RM intended.
I prefer the "Bomb them back (in this case...forward) to the stone age. Whistle up a B-52 for such a task. Why not send iron bombs instead of Iron Men....much more efficient and safer for the Men in the long run. Bombs are cheap....lives sure aren't!
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SASless
But with ref to your last comment
Carpet bombing would not have helped the Marine that they thought was still alive on the ground that they were trying to rescue. Your previous posts here were apt as normal, your last one was crap and an offence to the families who will inevitably read this thread.
But with ref to your last comment
"Bomb them back (in this case...forward) to the stone age. Whistle up a B-52 for such a task. Why not send iron bombs instead of Iron Men....much more efficient and safer for the Men in the long run. Bombs are cheap....lives sure aren't!
Tigs....
Let me make it very simple for you.
If no ground attack....no soldiers are exposed to harm.
Bombs are cheap.
Human lives are precious.
Use bombs, artillery, helicopter gunships, Spectre.....whatever before you attack on the ground.
use troops only when there is no other way of doing in the bad guys.
Do you catch my drift here? This is not a boxing contest using rules to make it a fair fight.
We should use our strenghts against their weaknesses.
Far better we rain Doom on them without risk to us. After it is all over with....then send in the troops to police up the area and search for usable intel and take DNA samples.
Let me make it very simple for you.
If no ground attack....no soldiers are exposed to harm.
Bombs are cheap.
Human lives are precious.
Use bombs, artillery, helicopter gunships, Spectre.....whatever before you attack on the ground.
use troops only when there is no other way of doing in the bad guys.
Do you catch my drift here? This is not a boxing contest using rules to make it a fair fight.
We should use our strenghts against their weaknesses.
Far better we rain Doom on them without risk to us. After it is all over with....then send in the troops to police up the area and search for usable intel and take DNA samples.