BBC story on poor Armed Forces Accommodation
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BBC story on poor Armed Forces Accommodation
An interesting story currently been run by the BBC on a story which will ring true to all those still serving:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6229393.stm
Also some good example pictures from a large transport base on the British Armed Forces Federation website:
http://www.baff.org.uk/Home.html
I wont hold my breath for action or new money though!
Where is generally accepted to have the worst accommodation in the RAF, I would guess that it isnt at one of the stns up for closure?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6229393.stm
Also some good example pictures from a large transport base on the British Armed Forces Federation website:
http://www.baff.org.uk/Home.html
I wont hold my breath for action or new money though!
Where is generally accepted to have the worst accommodation in the RAF, I would guess that it isnt at one of the stns up for closure?
Last edited by AonP; 3rd Jan 2007 at 23:09.
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Things really must be bad for the general to be quite so vocal:
Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".
BBC News Website The adjutant-general, Lt Gen Freddie Viggers, told BBC News the Army must now "fight our corner, in defence, to get our families what they deserve".
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Have just been listening to the Today programme and the wife from Brize Norton who was interviewed spoke very well putting the case better than any senior officer. Her husband is OOA and leaves in 6 months with the poor accommodation being a contributing factor in his decision to leave. She also complained about the lack of welfare facilities.
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Oh no..... I can see a few extra bull nights being offered as "encouragement"!
Seriously though - it is simply not acceptable in this day and age. I can imagine units being constantly overseas and returning to unused accomodation as a problem.
Top brass.... get it sorted.
Seriously though - it is simply not acceptable in this day and age. I can imagine units being constantly overseas and returning to unused accomodation as a problem.
Top brass.... get it sorted.
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Things really must be bad for the general to be quite so vocal:
Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".
Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".
I remember when the Gov sold off all MQs with promises of "This will raise 500 million which will be spent on the remaining stock." 
Its been a long time since then and I haven't spent one night anywhere in the "improved accommadation" yet, just the same old crap.
The cost has, not surprisingly, jumped to 1 billion now. I think it would be a safe bet that before anything is done it will cost 100 billion.
You aint seen me right.
Its been a long time since then and I haven't spent one night anywhere in the "improved accommadation" yet, just the same old crap.
The cost has, not surprisingly, jumped to 1 billion now. I think it would be a safe bet that before anything is done it will cost 100 billion.
You aint seen me right.
I recall a bunch of us having a go at the 'Families Officer' in the OM over 20 years ago about the dreadful state of the housing at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome. Many pre-fabs in use as AMQs - they'd been flown in by the US in the mid-60s with an assumed 10 year life span. I see from the photos that they're still in use. The OMQ patch was an eyesore - all the Families Officer would say was "It's to scale".
In the OM, brown, tepid water dripped from the taps. Many of the 'transit' rooms still bore the irremovable stains 23 years later. At one Mess Meeting we were told to shut up when we objected to proposals to spend hundreds on new curtains for the 'Ladies Room' (virtually never used) - we said that we wanted the single rooms fixed first! Fortunately I moved out to a local town as soon as I could!
At one of his Waddington briefings, ACM Sir John Allison told us of some difficulties he'd had with DHE and its 'customer service'. "Chaps - I'm not saying that I deserve any special treatment, but if that's the way they treat people in general, I hate to think what it must be like for those just starting their time!"
Let's hope we see those who defend our country's interests being given the homes-for-heroes they all deserve. No 'key performance indicators', 'targets' or other 'pseudo biz-speak' - just money and tangible action!
In the OM, brown, tepid water dripped from the taps. Many of the 'transit' rooms still bore the irremovable stains 23 years later. At one Mess Meeting we were told to shut up when we objected to proposals to spend hundreds on new curtains for the 'Ladies Room' (virtually never used) - we said that we wanted the single rooms fixed first! Fortunately I moved out to a local town as soon as I could!
At one of his Waddington briefings, ACM Sir John Allison told us of some difficulties he'd had with DHE and its 'customer service'. "Chaps - I'm not saying that I deserve any special treatment, but if that's the way they treat people in general, I hate to think what it must be like for those just starting their time!"
Let's hope we see those who defend our country's interests being given the homes-for-heroes they all deserve. No 'key performance indicators', 'targets' or other 'pseudo biz-speak' - just money and tangible action!
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Jan 2007 at 08:44.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEagle, we stayed in one of those concrete boxes a good number of years ago. Our sleep was disturbed when our host turned over in bed to get his hankerchief, and that before he blew his nose.
He was not in the same bed or even the same room but next door!
He was not in the same bed or even the same room but next door!
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Service accommodation
Whilst I completely agree that insufficient money has been spent over many, many years on services single and families accommodation (S&FA), anyone who served in the forces over the last 30 years or so also knows that often considerable variations existed in the standard of the S&FA considered acceptable within the three services.
In my experience, generally speaking, the RAF seemed willing to spend/invest more on improving/maintaining their S&FA than the other two services. The RAF has always wanted to have a 'follow the flag' policy for servicemen and servicewomen's families and at least made some effort to provide appropriate pro-rata accommodation. Sadly, this was not always achieved and some particular eyesores stand out. For instance, the appalling concrete prefabs at Carterton should have been demolished years ago, but still continue to be an utter blot on the landscape. I believe they were built in the mid-1960s and were only expected to last for 30 years. Having lived in one of the 'better' ones for a number of years and watched the continual deterioration of the others, I have every sympathy for the serviceman's wife who spoke so well on the Today programme this morning about the problems she has encountered. When the Tory party decided to sell off the defence estate to a Japanese bank, I don't think anyone really believed things would improve, unsurprisingly with few exceptions they have actually got worse.
Of course there were often considerable variations and some units, particularly the ones about to close, often had much better S&FA than another fairly adjacent unit; unfortunately projects and plans usually work in the long term, whilst policy decisions, often driven by internal MOD politics, seem to work in the short term. Budgets can only stretch so far and priorities must be established, but however bad some S&FA was at RAF units, IMHO it was generally of a considerably higher standard than that occupied by the other two services. The Navy were at least fairly honest about their approach to families accommodation - in an ideal world they would prefer not to have any. Consequently, they have had a long-established assisted house purchase scheme, which encourages their personnel to get into the housing market as soon as possible, whilst at the same time reducing the requirement for families accommodation and much of the attendant service family social support. What families accommodation the Navy had available was often poor and consequently served as an even greater incentive for individuals to purchase their own home.
Sadly, IMHO many of the problems with the current standard of much the S&FA occupied by the Army are almost entirely their own fault. Whilst I accept that many old barracks were in a poor state of repair and need to be demolished and replaced, this was not always the case. Over a number of years, many RAF units, where considerable sums of money had previously been invested over a number of years to improve the standard of the S&FA, were handed over to the Army. Sadly, the policy of continuing to invest in improving/maintaining this estate often appears to have been curtailed and the result has been a gradual deterioration in their overall quality - particularly in the single accommodation for the junior ranks.
Having worked alongside the Army and seen how some of the troops behave, I can fully understand why so much Army single accommodation is so bad - put simply, they seem all too keen to trash the place at every opportunity. Many service personnel who have served down in the Falklands and lived in the 'Death Star' will have seen the different service attitudes at first hand, particularly if they take a walk down the far end to the Army accommodation.
Previous governments going back many, many years have continually failed to ensure that the Defence budget included sufficient money 'ring-fenced' to improve the standard of all S&FA throughout the services. But the Army should also be honest enough to admit that their own attitude to improving/maintaining S&FA, particularly for the single junior ranks, has often left something to be desired, often the result of the way it has been treated by the occupants themselves.
Proletarian
In my experience, generally speaking, the RAF seemed willing to spend/invest more on improving/maintaining their S&FA than the other two services. The RAF has always wanted to have a 'follow the flag' policy for servicemen and servicewomen's families and at least made some effort to provide appropriate pro-rata accommodation. Sadly, this was not always achieved and some particular eyesores stand out. For instance, the appalling concrete prefabs at Carterton should have been demolished years ago, but still continue to be an utter blot on the landscape. I believe they were built in the mid-1960s and were only expected to last for 30 years. Having lived in one of the 'better' ones for a number of years and watched the continual deterioration of the others, I have every sympathy for the serviceman's wife who spoke so well on the Today programme this morning about the problems she has encountered. When the Tory party decided to sell off the defence estate to a Japanese bank, I don't think anyone really believed things would improve, unsurprisingly with few exceptions they have actually got worse.
Of course there were often considerable variations and some units, particularly the ones about to close, often had much better S&FA than another fairly adjacent unit; unfortunately projects and plans usually work in the long term, whilst policy decisions, often driven by internal MOD politics, seem to work in the short term. Budgets can only stretch so far and priorities must be established, but however bad some S&FA was at RAF units, IMHO it was generally of a considerably higher standard than that occupied by the other two services. The Navy were at least fairly honest about their approach to families accommodation - in an ideal world they would prefer not to have any. Consequently, they have had a long-established assisted house purchase scheme, which encourages their personnel to get into the housing market as soon as possible, whilst at the same time reducing the requirement for families accommodation and much of the attendant service family social support. What families accommodation the Navy had available was often poor and consequently served as an even greater incentive for individuals to purchase their own home.
Sadly, IMHO many of the problems with the current standard of much the S&FA occupied by the Army are almost entirely their own fault. Whilst I accept that many old barracks were in a poor state of repair and need to be demolished and replaced, this was not always the case. Over a number of years, many RAF units, where considerable sums of money had previously been invested over a number of years to improve the standard of the S&FA, were handed over to the Army. Sadly, the policy of continuing to invest in improving/maintaining this estate often appears to have been curtailed and the result has been a gradual deterioration in their overall quality - particularly in the single accommodation for the junior ranks.
Having worked alongside the Army and seen how some of the troops behave, I can fully understand why so much Army single accommodation is so bad - put simply, they seem all too keen to trash the place at every opportunity. Many service personnel who have served down in the Falklands and lived in the 'Death Star' will have seen the different service attitudes at first hand, particularly if they take a walk down the far end to the Army accommodation.
Previous governments going back many, many years have continually failed to ensure that the Defence budget included sufficient money 'ring-fenced' to improve the standard of all S&FA throughout the services. But the Army should also be honest enough to admit that their own attitude to improving/maintaining S&FA, particularly for the single junior ranks, has often left something to be desired, often the result of the way it has been treated by the occupants themselves.
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It certainly seems to vary considerably but I have seen some fairly recent improvement in accommodation, e.g. new Wardroom at Yeovilton, new Junior ranks accom at Wittering. All to the 'Travel Inn' standard which is pleasant enough but, as pointed out by a builder on the BBC news website, only designed to last about 10 years with paper thin walls and the cheapest fittings. I wonder how long MoD thinks they'll last? The old blocks at Wittering are not as bad as the phots on the beeb but seeing missing tiles and hanging light fittings in the showers was not unusual at COs inspection time.
Not so sure about MQs though. Have seen very nice new ones (again at Yeovilton) and some pretty tatty old ones (at Gosport). The RAF MQs seem to vary from OK down to adequate but my experience is limited, most appears to have sold off already turning the patches into estates.
The worst accom I have ever seen was an Army Barrack block at a camp near Boscombe Down. Should have been condemned decades ago.
The old blocks at Wittering are not as bad as the phots on the beeb but seeing missing tiles and hanging light fittings in the showers was not unusual at COs inspection time. Not so sure about MQs though. Have seen very nice new ones (again at Yeovilton) and some pretty tatty old ones (at Gosport). The RAF MQs seem to vary from OK down to adequate but my experience is limited, most appears to have sold off already turning the patches into estates.
The worst accom I have ever seen was an Army Barrack block at a camp near Boscombe Down. Should have been condemned decades ago.
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The whole phone in on Radio 5 this morning was about this subject.
Isn't it nice to see the senior officers standing up for the troops for a change? Does anyone else remember Sir Mike Graydon's embarrassing climbdown a few days after he dared open his trap about 10-15 years ago?
Isn't it nice to see the senior officers standing up for the troops for a change? Does anyone else remember Sir Mike Graydon's embarrassing climbdown a few days after he dared open his trap about 10-15 years ago?
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I recall a newly posted oik turning up from recruit training to hold at "a certain" unit awaiting trade training. Upon being shown a PortaKabin* and being told that was home until further notice, said oik simply threw his holdall over his shoulder, walked to the nearest station and jumped on the next train home.
*Other mobile office and accommodation building solutions are available
*Other mobile office and accommodation building solutions are available
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The poor standard of service accomodation has seen a rising number of folks decide to move into private accomodation if they are at all able. This trend is also influenced by the generally widening gulf between what the MoD considers acceptable and the increased expectations of the wider population. However, compare and contrast the increase in rental charges of SFA (above inflation) with the stagnation/reduction in allowances associated with living in private accomodation. For example, Home-to-Duty has been reduced under JPA (18 vice 20 journeys per month), and in no way reflects the deliberate government policy to increase the cost of motoring for "environmental" purposes. I'm sure that pay-per-mile road pricing will make this situation much worse. Furthermore, the refund of legal expenses for private moves has remained capped at the ridiculous figure of £5000 for years and in no way reflects the true cost of moving house, particularly once over the 3% stamp duty threshold - as more and more people are discovering. This allowance doesn't even appear to be linked to RPI, never mind to the massive increases in the cost of housing.
Before anyone says anything so trite and intellectually deficient as "you don't have to live out" - just consider what would happen if everyone who currently lives in private accomodation exercised their right to be provided with SFA/SLA. The accomodation system would collapse under the strain and the cost to the MoD in excess rent payments would be enormous. In fact, everyone who lives "out" is doing the MoD a massive favour. A cynic might suggest that the MoD might actually prefer to let the poor standard of public accomodation continue to drive people into private accomodation as a cost-saving measure.
Before anyone says anything so trite and intellectually deficient as "you don't have to live out" - just consider what would happen if everyone who currently lives in private accomodation exercised their right to be provided with SFA/SLA. The accomodation system would collapse under the strain and the cost to the MoD in excess rent payments would be enormous. In fact, everyone who lives "out" is doing the MoD a massive favour. A cynic might suggest that the MoD might actually prefer to let the poor standard of public accomodation continue to drive people into private accomodation as a cost-saving measure.
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Policy on SFA rent rises
Perhaps he's got wind of plans to increase the rental charges in this year's pay rise? If I recall correctly, after the big increase in charges last year (anywhere between 2.5% to 13%), another rise is on the cards because the AFPRB "consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators".
If it is public sector civilians, who are the ones that undergo moves every 2 to 3 years for the balance/mix of routine postings/regimental moves and career-progression changes of role/location?
If it is commercial sector, then they can choose where they live according to their pay and relocation schemes.
Perhaps I am overly optimistic to expect MOD is comparing like with like ...
Does anyone believe we could get to the expected bottom line of SFA rental targets through an FoI question?
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Accommodation
5.2 In line with our remit on maintaining broad comparability, we consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators. The Service accommodation rental charges, however, are intentionally set below market rates for comparable civilian accommodation to reflect the inherent disadvantages associated with living in Service accommodation. These disadvantages include the lack of choice, lack of security of tenure on postings or on leaving the Armed Forces, lack of an option to buy and restrictions on decorating or making other changes. We are also mindful of the fact that there are considerable advantages to the Services of having personnel located close to, or on, bases.
5.2 In line with our remit on maintaining broad comparability, we consider Service accommodation rental charges in relation to the accommodation costs of civilian comparators. The Service accommodation rental charges, however, are intentionally set below market rates for comparable civilian accommodation to reflect the inherent disadvantages associated with living in Service accommodation. These disadvantages include the lack of choice, lack of security of tenure on postings or on leaving the Armed Forces, lack of an option to buy and restrictions on decorating or making other changes. We are also mindful of the fact that there are considerable advantages to the Services of having personnel located close to, or on, bases.
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Glad to see the media highlighting the poor standard of service accommodation.
MQs at a certain secret Wiltshire airbase are in a similar state of repair - I have heard reports of families waiting for up to 18 months for general repairs to be carried out, shoddy and even dangerous workmanship. A colleague of mine with two small children was left with no heating or hot water for two weeks over the Christmas period even though temperatures dropped below freezing!
I know many will say that you can always buy your own house - but how many serviceman can afford their own property close to their place of work? Why should we spend money on a property we only live in for 6 months a year?
Yes our rent probably is lower than the civilian market but I still pay around £400 per month (plus uitilities) for my antiquated, un-modernised and below standard FMQ. There is no money for improvements - I have a kitchen, bathroom and plumbing that date from the 1950's and have constantly been told that they will be improved when the budget allows -so far I have been waiting 8 years!!
We expect a decent level of housing, nothing special - just up-to date, warm and with working amenities, for our families while we risk life and limb for our country! Is this too much too ask?
If our lords and masters are worried about recruiting and retention they should start to pay more attention to our poor living standards.
Why waste £30 billion on a Trident replacement? - use that to improve our kit and accommodation and maybe even sell a few Typhoons so we can all have new kitchens, bathrooms, carpets, cheaper utility bills and housing of an acceptable standard.
MQs at a certain secret Wiltshire airbase are in a similar state of repair - I have heard reports of families waiting for up to 18 months for general repairs to be carried out, shoddy and even dangerous workmanship. A colleague of mine with two small children was left with no heating or hot water for two weeks over the Christmas period even though temperatures dropped below freezing!
I know many will say that you can always buy your own house - but how many serviceman can afford their own property close to their place of work? Why should we spend money on a property we only live in for 6 months a year?
Yes our rent probably is lower than the civilian market but I still pay around £400 per month (plus uitilities) for my antiquated, un-modernised and below standard FMQ. There is no money for improvements - I have a kitchen, bathroom and plumbing that date from the 1950's and have constantly been told that they will be improved when the budget allows -so far I have been waiting 8 years!!
We expect a decent level of housing, nothing special - just up-to date, warm and with working amenities, for our families while we risk life and limb for our country! Is this too much too ask?
If our lords and masters are worried about recruiting and retention they should start to pay more attention to our poor living standards.
Why waste £30 billion on a Trident replacement? - use that to improve our kit and accommodation and maybe even sell a few Typhoons so we can all have new kitchens, bathrooms, carpets, cheaper utility bills and housing of an acceptable standard.
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This is not a new problem. When posted to a well known training establishment near Wendover in the 60's my MQ was condemned by the SMO. It did result in a move but the only decent accomodation that we have lived in was in Germany during 26 years sevice.