Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
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why am I not surprised. However with the state of the defence budget its better than nothing and hopefully they will be cleared hot and high but how long till its in service and will Gordon then refuse to fund devlopment of a repacement for Puma/Sea King
E-Sheep, yes, in terms of size, capability and cost Chinook/Puma or Chinook/Blackhawk is a more effiicient mix - but this has little bearing on defence procurement when a British (ish) company is involved. The compelling case at the moment is to upgrade the Puma - makes the support issues much easier - rather than introduce a new type, ie Blackhawk. A combination of re-engined Pumas and Carsonised SK4 will let us limp to the ISD of a new type in the 2015-2025 timescale (funding permitting).
Converting the Mk3 Chinook into MH-47E/G is not straightforward. We would run into all sorts of IPR/ITAR issues, not to mention having to attempt to certify the Rockwell cockpit which contains SOUP. Therefore, back to square one!!
The extant Mk2/2A fleet will require a further MLU in the next decade, where, I'm sure, a lot of the digitization issues will be addressed.
The 412 has much merit as a stop gap, esp as we train pilots on it already. However, having sampled it in a variety of military guises, it really is no long term solution. By the time you've armoured and DASed it up you're left with very little performance - Why do you think that the Canadians have not taken their CH-146s to Afghanistan?
The MoD and politicians owe us new helicopters; at the very least they should back up this "extension" of existing types with real money in the future and open competitions to give us what we need.
One very real problem we face is a reluctance on the part of industry to bid for Helicopter programmes in the UK, due to Westland's lobbying power. Understandably they don't wan't to waste millions of euros providing products/briefings/corperate entertainment if the UK Govt instinctively props AW up with contracts.
Converting the Mk3 Chinook into MH-47E/G is not straightforward. We would run into all sorts of IPR/ITAR issues, not to mention having to attempt to certify the Rockwell cockpit which contains SOUP. Therefore, back to square one!!
The extant Mk2/2A fleet will require a further MLU in the next decade, where, I'm sure, a lot of the digitization issues will be addressed.
The 412 has much merit as a stop gap, esp as we train pilots on it already. However, having sampled it in a variety of military guises, it really is no long term solution. By the time you've armoured and DASed it up you're left with very little performance - Why do you think that the Canadians have not taken their CH-146s to Afghanistan?
The MoD and politicians owe us new helicopters; at the very least they should back up this "extension" of existing types with real money in the future and open competitions to give us what we need.
One very real problem we face is a reluctance on the part of industry to bid for Helicopter programmes in the UK, due to Westland's lobbying power. Understandably they don't wan't to waste millions of euros providing products/briefings/corperate entertainment if the UK Govt instinctively props AW up with contracts.
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Puma is a good helecopter though it does have some major problems when it comes to my side of the house when you put a stretcher on the floor you don't have a great deal of room to work round it and also getting a stretcher in is a pain in the Ar$e hence the reason they use chinook which though giving the room is very noisy and can make working on a casualty problematic. Friends who've used Merlin for casualty transfare have said its the best platform they've used yet.
Avoid imitations
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Nurse - the 412 is no bigger than the Puma and is a far less capable airframe. BTW, what happened to the Puma 6 stretcher fit?
I've flown all three types. The 412 is an ancient design and really quite limited in performance. The RAF Puma (God bless her) is a late 1960s design too, some of the RAF airframes in use are close on 35 years old! The helicopter equivalent of driving a 1970s car in a Formula 1 race?
I would have no hesitation in deciding which I'd rather fly in an operational theatre - Blackhawk please, every single time! After all, it's a 10,000 kg airframe with an impressive performance with the 701C engines. RTM322 (over 500 more shp) would turn it into an even more potent machine and give room for future development, especially now that engine has proved itself in service.
I've flown all three types. The 412 is an ancient design and really quite limited in performance. The RAF Puma (God bless her) is a late 1960s design too, some of the RAF airframes in use are close on 35 years old! The helicopter equivalent of driving a 1970s car in a Formula 1 race?
I would have no hesitation in deciding which I'd rather fly in an operational theatre - Blackhawk please, every single time! After all, it's a 10,000 kg airframe with an impressive performance with the 701C engines. RTM322 (over 500 more shp) would turn it into an even more potent machine and give room for future development, especially now that engine has proved itself in service.
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The Puma 6 stretcher fit owwww have seen it once in northern ireland for training they set up half the aircraft we tried to put in 3 its bloody hard work and not the easiest enviroment to work in. Also if you set it up that way you loose the flexibility. you can set the chinkook up for a huge number of stretchers but again your looking at dedicated aeromed aircraft which UKPLC hasn't the resources to do so we tend to comprimise with stretcher on floor Puma tail boom is a great place to carry it.
I know the size limitations of the 412 and wouldn't see it as a puma replacement rather as a supplement to the current fleet.
I'm not a big fan of blackhawk and as a casualty the space on the medihawk they're crammed into makes it difficult to do anything if the patients condition deterioates. I was also told by a US medic Col you cant put a NATO standard stretcher on the floor of the Blackawk across the payload area. The Seaking is fairly good in IRT role but again getting casualties in and out is problematic. Chinook and Merlin have the advantage of the tail ramp so walking wounded can walk on and a stretcher can be carried on and not have to be put in like something out of a leaderless command task.
I know the size limitations of the 412 and wouldn't see it as a puma replacement rather as a supplement to the current fleet.
I'm not a big fan of blackhawk and as a casualty the space on the medihawk they're crammed into makes it difficult to do anything if the patients condition deterioates. I was also told by a US medic Col you cant put a NATO standard stretcher on the floor of the Blackawk across the payload area. The Seaking is fairly good in IRT role but again getting casualties in and out is problematic. Chinook and Merlin have the advantage of the tail ramp so walking wounded can walk on and a stretcher can be carried on and not have to be put in like something out of a leaderless command task.
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If the Chinook (HC.3?) problem is resolved I will assume that will make a big difference to heavy SH capacity. If they get some twin prop transports (c.27 or similar) for in-theatre support that should relieve the heavy SH and reduce the burden on the old hercs. So, then maybe we will have enough biguns to keep things moving. Just so long as Mr Bliar doesn't get tempted to join in any other adventures on tiop of existing debacles.
If the current Lynx is unsuitable for the hot & high stuff then it seems that there is a need for a basic wagon to plug the gap prior to F-Lynx coming along. Having read the comments about difficulties with access by side doors, I do wonder why we never had Wastelands build the S-61R under licence when the Commando helicopters were built. That ramp must shirley have made the aircraft more versatile. The biggest advantage of the tail ramp would appear to be that you can get in & out very quickly with awkward loads, particularly stretchers. So, that rules out the 412.
How about the NH90? Would that not be a good option betweem F-Lynx and Merlin/Chinook?
If the SeaKing improvements help take off the pressure until new kit is available that will be good. There will probably be a market for the improved SeaKing when we've finished with them.
The Puma seems to be approaching its sell-by date. Unless the Romanians can re-start production. i bet thiose Portuguese ones are knackered boneshakers. The NH90 seems a far better bet due to having a ramp.
Here's a thought to stir things up... Anyone remember the old Westland WG.30 ? It never attracted any orders and I seem to recall that it was underpowered. I wonder how that airframe combined with the same engines as Apache AH.1 might perform. Have Wastelands still got the jigs?
Of course this all comes down to money. Do we need JSF ?? Cancel that, operate one fast jet (Typhoon) and sort out AT & SH. Then we just need a government that recognises reality and doesn't expect our armed forces to operate beyond the capabilities of what the exchequer provides.
Whatever the outcome, you chaps at the sharp end have my utmost admiration. You deserve bettter. I'm glad nobody shoots at me when I'm trying to land in a respectable fashion.
If the current Lynx is unsuitable for the hot & high stuff then it seems that there is a need for a basic wagon to plug the gap prior to F-Lynx coming along. Having read the comments about difficulties with access by side doors, I do wonder why we never had Wastelands build the S-61R under licence when the Commando helicopters were built. That ramp must shirley have made the aircraft more versatile. The biggest advantage of the tail ramp would appear to be that you can get in & out very quickly with awkward loads, particularly stretchers. So, that rules out the 412.
How about the NH90? Would that not be a good option betweem F-Lynx and Merlin/Chinook?
If the SeaKing improvements help take off the pressure until new kit is available that will be good. There will probably be a market for the improved SeaKing when we've finished with them.
The Puma seems to be approaching its sell-by date. Unless the Romanians can re-start production. i bet thiose Portuguese ones are knackered boneshakers. The NH90 seems a far better bet due to having a ramp.
Here's a thought to stir things up... Anyone remember the old Westland WG.30 ? It never attracted any orders and I seem to recall that it was underpowered. I wonder how that airframe combined with the same engines as Apache AH.1 might perform. Have Wastelands still got the jigs?
Of course this all comes down to money. Do we need JSF ?? Cancel that, operate one fast jet (Typhoon) and sort out AT & SH. Then we just need a government that recognises reality and doesn't expect our armed forces to operate beyond the capabilities of what the exchequer provides.
Whatever the outcome, you chaps at the sharp end have my utmost admiration. You deserve bettter. I'm glad nobody shoots at me when I'm trying to land in a respectable fashion.
Nurse,
Aware that this is morphing into a different topic, but I'm 100% in agreement about the Merlin being a superb CASEVAC copter. However, its size is an issue compared to the Puma.
Damn sight more comfortable than Chinook!
But, could it get to you at 15000ft in Afghanistan with the fuel / armour /role kit to do the job?
Nurse, you never flew with 1310 Flt out of Divulje Barracks did you?
Aware that this is morphing into a different topic, but I'm 100% in agreement about the Merlin being a superb CASEVAC copter. However, its size is an issue compared to the Puma.
Damn sight more comfortable than Chinook!
But, could it get to you at 15000ft in Afghanistan with the fuel / armour /role kit to do the job?
Nurse, you never flew with 1310 Flt out of Divulje Barracks did you?
MAV8R wrote:
From speaking to one of the chaps who went out to see them, quite the opposite, they are of the same vintage as the UK ones, but with very low hours and have spent the last 30 years being flown in a very benign manner.
They come with Makila engines (the improvement in performance over the Turmos when H&H is impressive) and sponsons, and need some work (comms, DAS & IIRC NVG) but are a good bet for cheap additional capability.
QinetiQ could also use one to front load some of the certification work required for the Puma Mk2 if it ever comes.
i bet thiose Portuguese ones are knackered boneshakers
They come with Makila engines (the improvement in performance over the Turmos when H&H is impressive) and sponsons, and need some work (comms, DAS & IIRC NVG) but are a good bet for cheap additional capability.
QinetiQ could also use one to front load some of the certification work required for the Puma Mk2 if it ever comes.
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That's reassuring. So they'd make a good stop gap until a long term decision is made methinks. What you say appears to underline the fact that our armed forces are busier than most. war fighting and adequate training for the purpose takes its toll on aircraft.
Let's hope somebody in Whitehall is listening to the end users, then you might get adequate kit. Although I expect they will remain committed to having excess numbers of grey pointy things which are much more glamourous than humble SH and AT types. Oh to turn the clock back and have an AT fleet like we had pre-74.
That's reassuring. So they'd make a good stop gap until a long term decision is made methinks. What you say appears to underline the fact that our armed forces are busier than most. war fighting and adequate training for the purpose takes its toll on aircraft.
Let's hope somebody in Whitehall is listening to the end users, then you might get adequate kit. Although I expect they will remain committed to having excess numbers of grey pointy things which are much more glamourous than humble SH and AT types. Oh to turn the clock back and have an AT fleet like we had pre-74.
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Only worked with Puma in Northern Ireland and Belize.
Jungly AEO that is a huge question is the RAF ready to have NCO Pilots? Or could Aditional SH be Green?
I would agree NH90 would be a useful addition to the fleet or maybe replacing the Lynx AH9's in the transport role for the army.
I think though the problem will be gordon as he see the military as the tory party in uniform.
I though something was said at farnborough about puma/seaking replacement?
Jungly AEO that is a huge question is the RAF ready to have NCO Pilots? Or could Aditional SH be Green?
I would agree NH90 would be a useful addition to the fleet or maybe replacing the Lynx AH9's in the transport role for the army.
I think though the problem will be gordon as he see the military as the tory party in uniform.
I though something was said at farnborough about puma/seaking replacement?
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well the Dutch have ordered 6x CH47F for delivery in 2009/10 maybe we should follow suit and see about getting some of ours converted to CH47F standard
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...70215b_nr.html
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...70215b_nr.html
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The last thing we need to do right now is start converting existing CH47 to the F standard - this will only reduce the availablity at the front line - we need to buy sufficent new ones first, as an increase to overall lift capability, then convert the existing fleet.
Nurse,
Unfortunately the end user for the 8 Mk3s is different to any potential Mk2 upgrade. Therefore, they are on a different timeline. However, it would be common sense to de-risk the Mk2 MLU with the Mk3 Fix-to-Field as much as possible to minimise recurring costs.
Nice idea to replace CH47 with AH64 for Royal, but I don't think we have the required 60 odd AH at first line to conduct a company lift! Still, we could exhume the ACH-47 and have the SH escorting the AH....!
Electric sheep, IMHO you're bang on - we have no spare ac to "prime the pump" for a future MLU - we'd need a substantial reduction in Op tempo to achieve it without severely reducing ac available to the front line.
Unfortunately the end user for the 8 Mk3s is different to any potential Mk2 upgrade. Therefore, they are on a different timeline. However, it would be common sense to de-risk the Mk2 MLU with the Mk3 Fix-to-Field as much as possible to minimise recurring costs.
Nice idea to replace CH47 with AH64 for Royal, but I don't think we have the required 60 odd AH at first line to conduct a company lift! Still, we could exhume the ACH-47 and have the SH escorting the AH....!
Electric sheep, IMHO you're bang on - we have no spare ac to "prime the pump" for a future MLU - we'd need a substantial reduction in Op tempo to achieve it without severely reducing ac available to the front line.
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Whatever the decision, we need some coherency across the fleet, ie: CH47/Blackhawk CH47/Merlin not CH47/Puma/Merlin/Jungly.
This would save money in infrastructure, eng processes etc.
My personal favoure option (utopia time) would be CH47/Blackhawk for SH, Seahawk for the jungly guys.
The Seahawk is pretty capable, and the eng similarities between Black/Seahawk would eradicate much of the doubling of Eng assets/sims.
This would save money in infrastructure, eng processes etc.
My personal favoure option (utopia time) would be CH47/Blackhawk for SH, Seahawk for the jungly guys.
The Seahawk is pretty capable, and the eng similarities between Black/Seahawk would eradicate much of the doubling of Eng assets/sims.
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I'm inclined to agree, and since we already have CH-47 and Merlin those should be the platforms we should base future expansion around. What we need are more Merlins - same engine as the Apache, and there's a model with a ramp, two big doors and on which everything folds.
There may be tasks where a Merlin is overkill compared to an NH90 or Super Puma, but the advantages of a single-type SH fleet (plus the Chinooks) are surely compelling.
There may be tasks where a Merlin is overkill compared to an NH90 or Super Puma, but the advantages of a single-type SH fleet (plus the Chinooks) are surely compelling.