RAF to encourage Fat WAAFs
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BOFFIN WARNING ON:
The Multi-stage Fitness Test (MSFT), as I seem to recall posting before, is not really a measure of fitness in itself, but a measure of something that has a pretty good correlation with a real measure of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max).
The ability to do aerobic work can be measured by working out how much oxygen the body is capable of using. On a cycle in a laboratory, this is done by measuring the ACTUAL amount of oxygen used during the final minute of a period of exercise to exhaustion (VO2 max). This needs lots of equipment for measuring inspired and expired O2 and CO2 concentration levels, the actual volume of expired air (collected using massive 'Douglas' bags), a vacuum pump and a willing volunteer.
If all you want to measure is the ability to move a wheel on a laboratory bike, the actual amount of O2 used will be pretty well related to the work done. So the Sports Scientists (yes I was one) talk in terms of whole O2 uptake, measured in litres per minute. This might be 3.0 to 3.5 for a typical female and 3.5 to 4.0 for a chap (compared to around 5.0 for elite athletes!). This ability, whilst it may be trained, is largely genetic, so how can its measurement be considered a measure of fitness?
When you need to measure someone's ability to move themselves (and equipment) around, body weight comes into it, because the total actual O2 uptake (work done) has to be spread around the weight being carried. For runners,for example, weight is absolutely critical to performance and they measure O2 uptake in terms of mililitres per kilogram per minute. It is THIS figure that the RAF is trying to get an indication of, but far more cheaply than by providing proper training for its PTIs and money for equipment.
This was achieved at Loughborough in the late 80s by measuring the actual VO2Max of a wide range of healthy people, then having them do the MSFT. The intention was to provide a cheap measure of VO2 max requiring nothing more than a space the length of a tennis court and a readily available equipment (ie a tape player). When split according to sex, the results correlated so well that even the academics were surprised, and the product was released (IIRC) to enable sports clubs, schools and colleges (without money for the expensive equipment) to conduct their own measurements.
This splitting of the subjects into separate groups according to sex is important because it helps to explain why the males and females in the RAF have separate standards. If you want to examine whether the actual levels are really fair, then compare the indicated VO2 max figures in the MSFT booklet for the set levels. Irrespective of sex, I believe the VO2 max (in ml per kg per min) should be similar for both sexes in the same age group if the targets are to be considered fair.
Plans for the RAF to use the test were initially developed in 88-89, though it didn't come in until a few years later. I don't know why the required levels keep changing, and I am not entirely convinced about the case for the test's employment except it keeps the PTIs away from the dangerous (and expensive) Adventurous Trg, and I suppose the field sqns of the RAF Regt could use it as a performance indicator.
Indeed, it has long been argued that a person's aerobic fitness is a limitation to G-tolerance. The USAF recognised this in the mid-60s and took steps to maximise any advantage they could gain in this area. I remember visiting Woodbridge in about 1991 and being amazed at the amount of shiny weights machines the crews had to play with. I also seem to recall most of the A10 crews being wider than they were tall! But I don't remember seeing too many bikes or treadmills!
BOFFIN WARNING OFF
Finally, because I've banged-on quite enough, the essential thing the RAFFT is measuring is whether an individual is too heavy to allow their heart, lungs and muscles to get to a level on the MSFT. Whilst I agree that remedial trg is a good thing, it is something we should all be giving time to. In many cases, those who are failing the RAFFT actually need to lose weight, which appropriate rem trg should help to achieve.
"Pot calling kettle, come in kettle!"
STH
Edited to add Musclemech got there before me, but as it took me so long to write my bit, I will leave it in unless anyone objects ...
The Multi-stage Fitness Test (MSFT), as I seem to recall posting before, is not really a measure of fitness in itself, but a measure of something that has a pretty good correlation with a real measure of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max).
The ability to do aerobic work can be measured by working out how much oxygen the body is capable of using. On a cycle in a laboratory, this is done by measuring the ACTUAL amount of oxygen used during the final minute of a period of exercise to exhaustion (VO2 max). This needs lots of equipment for measuring inspired and expired O2 and CO2 concentration levels, the actual volume of expired air (collected using massive 'Douglas' bags), a vacuum pump and a willing volunteer.
If all you want to measure is the ability to move a wheel on a laboratory bike, the actual amount of O2 used will be pretty well related to the work done. So the Sports Scientists (yes I was one) talk in terms of whole O2 uptake, measured in litres per minute. This might be 3.0 to 3.5 for a typical female and 3.5 to 4.0 for a chap (compared to around 5.0 for elite athletes!). This ability, whilst it may be trained, is largely genetic, so how can its measurement be considered a measure of fitness?
When you need to measure someone's ability to move themselves (and equipment) around, body weight comes into it, because the total actual O2 uptake (work done) has to be spread around the weight being carried. For runners,for example, weight is absolutely critical to performance and they measure O2 uptake in terms of mililitres per kilogram per minute. It is THIS figure that the RAF is trying to get an indication of, but far more cheaply than by providing proper training for its PTIs and money for equipment.
This was achieved at Loughborough in the late 80s by measuring the actual VO2Max of a wide range of healthy people, then having them do the MSFT. The intention was to provide a cheap measure of VO2 max requiring nothing more than a space the length of a tennis court and a readily available equipment (ie a tape player). When split according to sex, the results correlated so well that even the academics were surprised, and the product was released (IIRC) to enable sports clubs, schools and colleges (without money for the expensive equipment) to conduct their own measurements.
This splitting of the subjects into separate groups according to sex is important because it helps to explain why the males and females in the RAF have separate standards. If you want to examine whether the actual levels are really fair, then compare the indicated VO2 max figures in the MSFT booklet for the set levels. Irrespective of sex, I believe the VO2 max (in ml per kg per min) should be similar for both sexes in the same age group if the targets are to be considered fair.
Plans for the RAF to use the test were initially developed in 88-89, though it didn't come in until a few years later. I don't know why the required levels keep changing, and I am not entirely convinced about the case for the test's employment except it keeps the PTIs away from the dangerous (and expensive) Adventurous Trg, and I suppose the field sqns of the RAF Regt could use it as a performance indicator.
Indeed, it has long been argued that a person's aerobic fitness is a limitation to G-tolerance. The USAF recognised this in the mid-60s and took steps to maximise any advantage they could gain in this area. I remember visiting Woodbridge in about 1991 and being amazed at the amount of shiny weights machines the crews had to play with. I also seem to recall most of the A10 crews being wider than they were tall! But I don't remember seeing too many bikes or treadmills!
BOFFIN WARNING OFF
Finally, because I've banged-on quite enough, the essential thing the RAFFT is measuring is whether an individual is too heavy to allow their heart, lungs and muscles to get to a level on the MSFT. Whilst I agree that remedial trg is a good thing, it is something we should all be giving time to. In many cases, those who are failing the RAFFT actually need to lose weight, which appropriate rem trg should help to achieve.
"Pot calling kettle, come in kettle!"
STH
Edited to add Musclemech got there before me, but as it took me so long to write my bit, I will leave it in unless anyone objects ...
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 21st Dec 2006 at 14:39.
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Even with the level changes, for a 40 something bloke its still easy.
However, if you are struggling you could always go down the transexual route. This seems to be acceptable these days, but one hell of an extreme for an easier fitness test.
However, if you are struggling you could always go down the transexual route. This seems to be acceptable these days, but one hell of an extreme for an easier fitness test.
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The tests aren't hard in fact they are a piece of piss at all levels and whilst I would like to see Pt as part of my weekly work routine I doubt /know it won't ever happen.
we are in the military and it's up to you to maintain your fitness, get off your fat arses and do some work, the ammount of people who I see driving quarter of a mile from quarters to work makes me laugh, lazy twats walk! or ride a bike! their should be some financial penaty to people who fail their tests, That would soon see the gym a bit busier.
I for one would like to see the levels raised again to something even remotely challenging.
we are in the military and it's up to you to maintain your fitness, get off your fat arses and do some work, the ammount of people who I see driving quarter of a mile from quarters to work makes me laugh, lazy twats walk! or ride a bike! their should be some financial penaty to people who fail their tests, That would soon see the gym a bit busier.
I for one would like to see the levels raised again to something even remotely challenging.
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I am not sure how to do that lovely quote from previous messages so I have had to do it by copy and paste, sorry!
LFFC: "Unfortunately, someone over the age of 40 may not have done the beep test for years - if at all - and may find it a bit of a shock to the system!"
As I mentioned before, at first there was real concern that over 40s would be in real danger of inducing a heart attack if they did a running test, never having done any exercise before. Now, however, everyone (in theory!!) will have been doing some exercise, so the risk of inducing a heart attack was considered to be much reduced and the running test could be introduced for everyone. And indeed could be taken as a maximal test ie go as far as you can rather than just to the level required.
LFFC: "Sadly, many perceive it as a threat rather than as an encouragement."
Sadly you are correct, but it is a bit of a lame excuse for not exercising, and smacks of I'm not going to do it, because I have been told to do it. I suspect that these individuals also do not like doing CCS, making sure their jabs are up to date and wearing uniform as well.
LFFC: "It wouldn't be "time off". If it's your duty to pass the RAFFT, then it's your commander's duty to ensure that you have time available to prepare for it!"
Ok then time 'away' from your place of primary work. Why should the RAF have to give you time away etc. you get more than 50% of the benefits from regular exercise. The RAF gets some benefits but much less than you do (see my previous post). The RAF already provides free (and generally excellent) facilities and free advice - how about the individual putting something into it?
Hoots: Its is still too easy, but there are people who can't pass at the current standards.
ABIW: Sadly my body is no longer bronzed or beautiful so I can't use that one anymore
Thanks for your insightful contribution though...
MM
LFFC: "Unfortunately, someone over the age of 40 may not have done the beep test for years - if at all - and may find it a bit of a shock to the system!"
As I mentioned before, at first there was real concern that over 40s would be in real danger of inducing a heart attack if they did a running test, never having done any exercise before. Now, however, everyone (in theory!!) will have been doing some exercise, so the risk of inducing a heart attack was considered to be much reduced and the running test could be introduced for everyone. And indeed could be taken as a maximal test ie go as far as you can rather than just to the level required.
LFFC: "Sadly, many perceive it as a threat rather than as an encouragement."
Sadly you are correct, but it is a bit of a lame excuse for not exercising, and smacks of I'm not going to do it, because I have been told to do it. I suspect that these individuals also do not like doing CCS, making sure their jabs are up to date and wearing uniform as well.
LFFC: "It wouldn't be "time off". If it's your duty to pass the RAFFT, then it's your commander's duty to ensure that you have time available to prepare for it!"
Ok then time 'away' from your place of primary work. Why should the RAF have to give you time away etc. you get more than 50% of the benefits from regular exercise. The RAF gets some benefits but much less than you do (see my previous post). The RAF already provides free (and generally excellent) facilities and free advice - how about the individual putting something into it?
Hoots: Its is still too easy, but there are people who can't pass at the current standards.
ABIW: Sadly my body is no longer bronzed or beautiful so I can't use that one anymore
Thanks for your insightful contribution though...MM
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A W*nker PTI posted on a Station forum a couple of years ago that he had nothing to do day-to-day and would love to see some fat ass techies spend some of their lazy work time in the gym. It quickly escalated as numerous other techies on station offered to show the more muscle than sense 'stretcher bearer' just how much time they have to get to the Gym.
By the way, Toddbabe your language is terrible. Please learn to refrain yourself and go burn some more (brain) cells on a running machine. Preferably one in Iraq.
Mentioning Ops, how come if unfit 'fat arsed' techies are so useless unless they can run marathons, do they manage to knock out 16 hour shifts fixing aircraft? Something maybe to do with Stamina?
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Tonkaplum: "A school or Uni wouldn't expect self teaching before examining. A Pilot wouldn't be given the handbook for a Harrier and be told to be back in a week for a solo?"
No, but I would hazard a guess that you would be expected to do some study yourself in your own time in order to pass the exam. You have had your initial training in how to keep fit during your ab initio and phase 2 training (or whatever it was called then). Now you have to do your homework.
Tonkaplum: "Mentioning Ops, how come if unfit 'fat arsed' techies are so useless unless they can run marathons, do they manage to knock out 16 hour shifts fixing aircraft? Something maybe to do with Stamina?"
It's not as simple as doing a 16 hour shift: it's what gets done in that 16 hours: how many of the unfit ones are the first to have to have a rest in an extended stint of work?
Tonkaplum: "A W*nker PTI "
While I can't condone the behaviours of some of my colleagues, and I think that we bring the wrong type of people, at too young an age, into my trade, the "PTIs are w*nkers" point of view is just another excuse used by individuals who don't want to, or are too lazy to, keep themselves fit.
MM
No, but I would hazard a guess that you would be expected to do some study yourself in your own time in order to pass the exam. You have had your initial training in how to keep fit during your ab initio and phase 2 training (or whatever it was called then). Now you have to do your homework.
Tonkaplum: "Mentioning Ops, how come if unfit 'fat arsed' techies are so useless unless they can run marathons, do they manage to knock out 16 hour shifts fixing aircraft? Something maybe to do with Stamina?"
It's not as simple as doing a 16 hour shift: it's what gets done in that 16 hours: how many of the unfit ones are the first to have to have a rest in an extended stint of work?
Tonkaplum: "A W*nker PTI "
While I can't condone the behaviours of some of my colleagues, and I think that we bring the wrong type of people, at too young an age, into my trade, the "PTIs are w*nkers" point of view is just another excuse used by individuals who don't want to, or are too lazy to, keep themselves fit.
MM
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Exactly. A school or Uni wouldn't expect self teaching before examining. A Pilot wouldn't be given the handbook for a Harrier and be told to be back in a week for a solo? If the RAF wants you to be fit, you should be given time to train.
A W*nker PTI posted on a Station forum a couple of years ago that he had nothing to do day-to-day and would love to see some fat ass techies spend some of their lazy work time in the gym. It quickly escalated as numerous other techies on station offered to show the more muscle than sense 'stretcher bearer' just how much time they have to get to the Gym.
By the way, Toddbabe your language is terrible. Please learn to refrain yourself and go burn some more (brain) cells on a running machine. Preferably one in Iraq.
Mentioning Ops, how come if unfit 'fat arsed' techies are so useless unless they can run marathons, do they manage to knock out 16 hour shifts fixing aircraft? Something maybe to do with Stamina?
A W*nker PTI posted on a Station forum a couple of years ago that he had nothing to do day-to-day and would love to see some fat ass techies spend some of their lazy work time in the gym. It quickly escalated as numerous other techies on station offered to show the more muscle than sense 'stretcher bearer' just how much time they have to get to the Gym.
By the way, Toddbabe your language is terrible. Please learn to refrain yourself and go burn some more (brain) cells on a running machine. Preferably one in Iraq.
Mentioning Ops, how come if unfit 'fat arsed' techies are so useless unless they can run marathons, do they manage to knock out 16 hour shifts fixing aircraft? Something maybe to do with Stamina?
Ed
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Gentlemen - please!!!
I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't keep fit - I do and always will.
My point is simple: Why is the level for men SO much higher than that for women? Musclemech suggested a 10% difference so, to repeat my original question, why does a 49 year old man have to run faster/longer than the fastest/youngest woman?
This is simply sexist - maybe the RAF is simply trying to fill ts obligation to have x% women, x% black and x%gay and they know that a higher fitness standard would result in many women being deterred from joining or forced to leave.
I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't keep fit - I do and always will.
My point is simple: Why is the level for men SO much higher than that for women? Musclemech suggested a 10% difference so, to repeat my original question, why does a 49 year old man have to run faster/longer than the fastest/youngest woman?
This is simply sexist - maybe the RAF is simply trying to fill ts obligation to have x% women, x% black and x%gay and they know that a higher fitness standard would result in many women being deterred from joining or forced to leave.
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16 Hours
MM
The 16 hour shifts are knocked out if required, by all engineers....cause thats what we do. The young are the ones who fade first if anyone but not through lack of commitment or enthusiasm, more because they are the ones lacking experience who don't drink enough water!!
By your theory then for 'you've been trained once, your turn'-
Ok, so again I'll use the pilot as an example. Posted from the conversion unit, he arrives at the flight line of his new squadron, to go flying.
Oh No you don't sir.... we are not at war, if your going training flying, you have to do that in your own time, at your own expense.
The RAF wants fit people, then people should be given time to get/remain fit. People with LIVES do not always have time out of uniform to dedicate to this. The Army has a high requirement for physical ability, what would they do if they were told they could only use the Gym when stood down?
Your argument is not.
The 16 hour shifts are knocked out if required, by all engineers....cause thats what we do. The young are the ones who fade first if anyone but not through lack of commitment or enthusiasm, more because they are the ones lacking experience who don't drink enough water!!
By your theory then for 'you've been trained once, your turn'-
Ok, so again I'll use the pilot as an example. Posted from the conversion unit, he arrives at the flight line of his new squadron, to go flying.
Oh No you don't sir.... we are not at war, if your going training flying, you have to do that in your own time, at your own expense.
The RAF wants fit people, then people should be given time to get/remain fit. People with LIVES do not always have time out of uniform to dedicate to this. The Army has a high requirement for physical ability, what would they do if they were told they could only use the Gym when stood down?
Your argument is not.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Burridge bloke said. He was so sane, he's advertising heating systems;
http://www.iceenergy.co.uk/testimonials.asp,
the term WARFIGHTER FIRST is less heard.....or gone.
http://www.iceenergy.co.uk/testimonials.asp,
the term WARFIGHTER FIRST is less heard.....or gone.
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(as long as the "something" in the above description isn't "stone" 
)As an aside, that Burridge Heat Pump Thermal Energy Exchanger Flux Capacitor Pump Video thingy....Anyone else spot Jonny Vegas answering the phones at "Pump HQ" right at the start?
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Tonka plum I have done my share of 16 plus hour shifts in all extremes of weather, and that never stopped me from doing some phys, If you want to do it there is always time, the same people who whinge they haven't got time somehow manage to go to the bar for a couple of pints.
You talk about people with "lives" not having time to do stuff outside of work, well you manage to spend a fair ammount of time posting on here, you could be pounding the streets or on the rower instead of exercising your delicate and oh so gramatically correct digits on here!
I am a huge advocate of dedicated pt lessons for all trades and all ranks but instead of whingeing about something that is never going to happen I just get on with it somehow in amongst my ever so busy work and home life.
Whilst undoubtedly there are people that do have difficulty getting to the gym after or before their work commitments, the vast majority of people that don't utilise the gym and are unfit are so because they choose to be.
Giving these lazy people the time to do phys isn't the answer because unchecked they are more likely to bunk off home early or have an extra half hour sat in the mess.
The answer is to have compulsary Pt for each section where people can be accounted for, if that ever were to come about (we both know it won't) then I think you would see a whole lot more people whingeing.
You talk about people with "lives" not having time to do stuff outside of work, well you manage to spend a fair ammount of time posting on here, you could be pounding the streets or on the rower instead of exercising your delicate and oh so gramatically correct digits on here!
I am a huge advocate of dedicated pt lessons for all trades and all ranks but instead of whingeing about something that is never going to happen I just get on with it somehow in amongst my ever so busy work and home life.
Whilst undoubtedly there are people that do have difficulty getting to the gym after or before their work commitments, the vast majority of people that don't utilise the gym and are unfit are so because they choose to be.
Giving these lazy people the time to do phys isn't the answer because unchecked they are more likely to bunk off home early or have an extra half hour sat in the mess.
The answer is to have compulsary Pt for each section where people can be accounted for, if that ever were to come about (we both know it won't) then I think you would see a whole lot more people whingeing.
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FTP: "The 16 hour shifts are knocked out if required, by all engineers....cause thats what we do. The young are the ones who fade first if anyone but not through lack of commitment or enthusiasm, more because they are the ones lacking experience who don't drink enough water!!"
OK I have been around enough engineers (and my father and brother are engineers) to have a pretty good idea that 16 hour shifts are not 16 hours of solid work... and age is not necessarily a marker of how fit or otherwise one is.
FTP: "Ok, so again I'll use the pilot as an example. Posted from the conversion unit, he arrives at the flight line of his new squadron, to go flying.
Oh No you don't sir.... we are not at war, if your going training flying, you have to do that in your own time, at your own expense."
Not really a good example because the flying traning is his primary job. However try this: pilot arrives from adv jet training onto OCU. Here you go sir, here's some of the manuals for your new jet. You will need to be familiar with these. Suggest you start reading them - maybe even 'shock horror' in your own time
FTP: "The RAF wants fit people, then people should be given time to get/remain fit. People with LIVES do not always have time out of uniform to dedicate to this. The Army has a high requirement for physical ability, what would they do if they were told they could only use the Gym when stood down?"
It's not asking too much to get people to do 3 half-hour sessions in the gym or elsewhere. As I said earlier the RAF gives you the facilities and advice free (so you can get extra training if yu have forgotten your initial training ) It is funny how so many do manage to find time in their LIVES. Lets put it tis way: if they were told that they would die in a week unless they did exercise 3 times a week, how many do you think would still struggle to fnd the time?
FTP: "Your argument is not. "
Probably so, but it comes down to my dislike of the thought that the RAF must provide everything for us. My ethos is get on and do it, and if the RAF doesn't provide, well sometimes I will have to.
Is this what they call thread drift???
MM
OK I have been around enough engineers (and my father and brother are engineers) to have a pretty good idea that 16 hour shifts are not 16 hours of solid work... and age is not necessarily a marker of how fit or otherwise one is.
FTP: "Ok, so again I'll use the pilot as an example. Posted from the conversion unit, he arrives at the flight line of his new squadron, to go flying.
Oh No you don't sir.... we are not at war, if your going training flying, you have to do that in your own time, at your own expense."
Not really a good example because the flying traning is his primary job. However try this: pilot arrives from adv jet training onto OCU. Here you go sir, here's some of the manuals for your new jet. You will need to be familiar with these. Suggest you start reading them - maybe even 'shock horror' in your own time
FTP: "The RAF wants fit people, then people should be given time to get/remain fit. People with LIVES do not always have time out of uniform to dedicate to this. The Army has a high requirement for physical ability, what would they do if they were told they could only use the Gym when stood down?"
It's not asking too much to get people to do 3 half-hour sessions in the gym or elsewhere. As I said earlier the RAF gives you the facilities and advice free (so you can get extra training if yu have forgotten your initial training ) It is funny how so many do manage to find time in their LIVES. Lets put it tis way: if they were told that they would die in a week unless they did exercise 3 times a week, how many do you think would still struggle to fnd the time?
FTP: "Your argument is not. "
Probably so, but it comes down to my dislike of the thought that the RAF must provide everything for us. My ethos is get on and do it, and if the RAF doesn't provide, well sometimes I will have to.
Is this what they call thread drift???
MM
Last edited by musclemech; 21st Dec 2006 at 18:34.
I'm about to become both 40 and a civvi. My chosen career route is hopefully the Police. As part of the application you get an 8 page pamphlet on how to train for their fitness test. Having opened it, laughed lots, I then decided opening it was sufficient practice.
Their gender/age same level? 5/4!!
As their PTI said - " as far as I'm concerned, you all passed - you managed to walk from the car park "
Incidently, were I not leaving, what's the new level for age 40?
Their gender/age same level? 5/4!!
As their PTI said - " as far as I'm concerned, you all passed - you managed to walk from the car park "
Incidently, were I not leaving, what's the new level for age 40?
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the "PTIs are w*nkers" point of view is just another excuse
What exactly is a PTI's war role? GD in a singlet?
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I found this on an earlier thread. Anyone know if it's accurate?
If so, then I take it that over 50s don't have to play.
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That looks the same as the levels posted on the wall of our gym (I did the fitness test only 2 weeks ago - I go to the gym once a year, whether I need to or not!) The PTI who showed us mentioned that they are still only "proposed" but he thought that they would be quite likely to go through. I've gone up from 8-10 to 9-04, even though I go up an age bracket next year!
"Start of level 9.......... BLEEP!"
"Start of level 9.......... BLEEP!"
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Maple 01
Maple 01 
I like your style and totally agree. The levels are going up to justify the Stretcher bearer's in peacetime.
Think of the money saved if they got rid of that trade (if it is a trade, in the meaning of the term). We could maybe then have a trade which is usefull.... Like Painters (Who we are just in the process of getting rid of !)
Madness.
I like your style and totally agree. The levels are going up to justify the Stretcher bearer's in peacetime.Think of the money saved if they got rid of that trade (if it is a trade, in the meaning of the term). We could maybe then have a trade which is usefull.... Like Painters (Who we are just in the process of getting rid of !)
Madness.