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why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?

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why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?

Old 22nd Nov 2006, 17:28
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thecontroller
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why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?

bristol groundschool is full of flight crew people either getting out or about to get out

why is this?
 
Old 22nd Nov 2006, 17:32
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Hmmmm, it could be that one or two (or ten) of the threads on this forum might just give you a few clues.............



OK, thats got rid of the message about not posting for some weeks.
Hat, coat, door......
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 18:27
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Hi controller,

I take it you're not a frequent visitor to the Military Aviation forum? Have a good read, it'll give you some big pointers of issues affecting the RAF today. I'd like to go into detail, but in all honesty it's all been covered ad infinitum on these forums, and if you have a look at some other forum sites you'll see that it's not just "flight crew" either. Ground trades are leaving in droves too. (Proportionately speaking, probably more so).
I really don't wish this reply to sound flippant, but there's no other way of putting it. Things are in a huge downward spiral and people can't wait to get out. Bad morale, bad equipment, fast turnaround on detachments, lowering standards, overstretch, etc etc. I could go on all night.

Hopefully that answers your question though. I'll leave you to do "further reading" as you see fit!
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 18:29
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hi, no i am not a frequent visitor. presumably there is no shortage of flightcrew wannabees to take their place though?
 
Old 22nd Nov 2006, 18:33
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Most aircrew are now doing their licences and are looking to move on from the "new" RAF as soon as their option point comes along. Take the gratuity and pension and go and do something that, mostly, does not involve more secondary duties than primary ones (ie just the flying). The "new" RAF is not the "old" RAF - most people, not just aircrew, are realising that it is time to go. Aircraft servicability, OOA too frequently and the general way that we are all being treated is playing a large part in people's decision to vote with their feet. I feel sorry for those left behind who will, no doubt, be forced to work even harder with less time off and more OOA.

Last one out, switch the light off (if the MOD haven't taken the one servicable lightbulb out and sold it already)...

SMT
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 19:01
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Originally Posted by thecontroller
hi, no i am not a frequent visitor. presumably there is no shortage of flightcrew wannabees to take their place though?
Of course not. (Again, read these forums, keeping a lookout for "I'm hoping to join the RAF!")
There'll always be plenty of volunteers for the flying jobs. "Ah but how do you replace experience?" I hear you ask. And there's the rub.
It's going down the sewer I'm afraid. Time to jump ship for me, and I'm a certified RAF nut.
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 19:07
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What I really like is leaving home at 0700, spending most of the day flying and teaching the student(the good bit) and then thinking at about 1730, its just about time to go home....

Oh, but then I'm asked whether I've completed the ''little jobs'' and secondary duties that I have been given (because there are simply not enough staff, no admin assistants etc etc) My reply is quite simply '' sorry , not enough time''

But that isn't a good enough answer it seems... what we are meant to do is make up for all the shortfalls and the under manning by working stupidly long hours..

So arrive back at house around 1930 to have less than 12 hours before leaving again!!! But its ok, at least I dont have orderly officer to do at the weekend.....
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 19:50
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not willing to offend anyone, but isnt it just the case that the military has finally caught up with the way the working world is for civilians? ie underpaid, overworked, too much form-filling...
 
Old 22nd Nov 2006, 20:00
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Maybe, but when was the last time you saw a story on the news about an overworked postal worker falling off his bike, spilling Christmas cards all over the road?

If a similar thing happens to a fatigued military pilot at work..... he's famous !!
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 20:00
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Originally Posted by thecontroller
not willing to offend anyone, but isnt it just the case that the military has finally caught up with the way the working world is for civilians? ie underpaid, overworked, too much form-filling...
Probably yes.

But at the same time how do you fancy Iraq or Afghanistan this time of year? If you were told it'll be one this year, and the other the next, how would you feel then? Oh and by the way, how do you feel about the fact that you'll get paid approximately 20-40% less than your contemporaries in civvy street?
We could argue this all night. I'm just trying to give you a flavour of where most of the RAF are coming from.

By the way, not offended in the slightest old chap. As I say, I'm out soon, so I feel no offence whatsoever! Ask the guys that are staying though......
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 21:23
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From personal experience, the hours don't change - still 0700 to 1900 (and sometimes though the night when bidding for new work) - but then the advantages of not having secondary duties, DSO/OO or being sent to warzones are somewhat obvious.

I wouldn't go back for double the salary.
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Old 22nd Nov 2006, 23:55
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Here is an insight into why Bristol Grounschool might be full of ex mil candidates (Well, my ramblings on what would make an experienced pilot, with a steady and guaranteed income, want to jump ship)

I love the RAF (yep, sad but I really am proud of everything we stand for and everything we have achieved), the flying training I have received and the job I do has been second to none and I could not wish for some of the opportunities I have been afforded. However, I have reached my option point and, although I've been offered PA and a short term extension to my current terms, will be off as soon as I can. I know that where I am going (Civvy airlines, hopefully) will not be a complete bed of roses but I also know that the RAF that I joined is not the RAF that I am currently serving.

The shop floor of the British military has an inherent ability to keep going despite whatever is thrown at it, particularly in the way of budget cuts and poor equipment. Hopefully the new blood that is currently earning it's spurs or that are joining as we speak will be happy with the state of things as they are as they will know no different and this is what will keep the services going. This is as long as budget cuts do not really hit safety - once that happens then we have a whole new ball game. I just have a fear that this will happen sooner rather than later which is one of the reasons I want to leave now.

As an SH driver, the implementation of JHC has seen nothing but negatives for the RAF. Despite our protestations and early highlighting of our concerns, the few benefits of being in the RAF have been slowly but surely eroded. I do not wish this to sound like the AAC have in any way dragged us down, they have had their terms and conditions reduced and do not appear to have seen any benefit from the amalgamation. The FAA seem to have escaped many of the drawbacks although I beleive that the CHF are starting to feel the bite a little.

Our lords and masters have done precious little to protect us from a government with a vastly over-ambitious foreign policy that a) doesn't want to pay for its military (Brown's "Pay for Gulf War 2 out of your training budget" and his announcement of a 'vote saving' Iraq/Afghan bonus that is then to be funded from the existing MoD budget) and b) is traditionally anti-military (How many current MPs have served in HM Forces?). We have a hierachy full of yes-men and they are all so bloody afraid to upset the apple cart that we have been stitched up time and time again.

We have operational deployments to particularly dodgy parts of the world cropping up with increased frequency and it seems to be made as hard as possible to actually deploy with more and more admin hoops to jump through before they will 'let you go' (as if you want to go) everytime we deploy. When we finally arrive at these godforsaken places it is never down to the skill of the Defence Transport 'Management' Agency - who seem to do everything in there power to make your trip to hell as unpleasant as possible.

We have also had to put up with the civilianisation of the military. This not only manifests iteslf with civvy companies doing half of the tasks that used to be done by the military and then not doing the SDO, Guard Commander, Gate Gurd duties that now appear on our programmes with more and more regularity, but also with all the bo11ocks management speak of 'Line Managers', "Mission Statements" and "Focus Groups". Can someone tell me when a 'Line Manager' last lead a squadron into battle? We need and want military leaders.

Finally, we are sick to death with our own terms and conditions being constantly chiselled away. MQs that are so poorly administered that it takes 6 months to have a serious fault fixed and the promise that in the near future rents will increase to match civilian rates; the lack of health and dental care (at my base station there is no Dental receptionist due to budget cuts - so appointments have to be made via answerphone and the hope that when you are called back you are not flying/deployed), the reduction in benefits snuck in the back door via JPA and the pi55 poor salary increases, assessed by the 'independant' AFPRB that every single time seem to be exactly in line with government targets despite how hard we are working or what extra duties our jobs have attracted.

I realise I have ranted for a while now and some outsiders might look on these and think 'spoilt', 'prima-donna', and 'get a life, join the real world'. The big thing is that I was sold one set of terms and conditions and, by erosions via both the back and front doors, these have now gone. This is probably the case for many that are deciding that they have had enough and is why so many are looking for work in the civvy sector.

[End 'Rant']
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 01:03
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I left the Air Force in 2001 and the only things I miss is the sense of humour and the laughs I had .. I think Lafyar Cokov is Spot on and far from being a rant his post is 100% spot on.

I could see the way things were going back then and I havent looked back since joining Civvy St, it still makes me smile that employers thought more of me for just having been in the Royal Air Force than the Royal Air Force thought of me while I was serving.

As for the politicians they are living proof that brain death isnt fatal, as far as I am concerned the only man who ever entered the House of Commons with a good idea was Guy Fawkes.

I am going to stop now before the Rant switch kicks in ..
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 07:45
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In the 23 years that I have so far served the only thing that has ever actually got better is the Boots, everything else has got worse.

I agree with you Lafyer Cokov whole heartedly, I am now finals to land in Civvy street and consider my next posting the last.
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 08:07
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Originally Posted by mutleyfour
In the 23 years that I have so far served the only thing that has ever actually got better is the Boots, everything else has got worse..
What grips me and many others who have baled out, has been watching the prevailing role model attributes slide steadfastly from "Dan Dare" to "Arthur Daley" over thirty years.
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 09:50
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Originally Posted by RETDPI
What grips me and many others who have baled out, has been watching the prevailing role model attributes slide steadfastly from "Dan Dare" to "Arthur Daley" over thirty years.
Brilliant - thanks for this - best laugh all day.
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 10:10
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Unhappy

Lafyer Cokov has supplied the answer and I agree with him wholeheartedly.
The nail was hit firmly on the head (for me, at least) at the recent Heli-Power conference. When one of the speakers, not from the UK, was asked how he managed to keep his aviators in the service, instead of them wishing to leave, he answered that you have to ensure that their efforts are appreciated, and that they, and their families, are well supported.
The two words that I have underlined are considerably less today, and in some places non-existant, compared to the armed forces I joined many years ago, and, I suspect, across all 3 services and not just from the RAF, as the RAF in Meltdown thread is showing. (Anyone else non-RAF joining in this thread? We are purple on PPRuNe!)

That is why people are looking for the door.
And stealing your airline jobs.

Last edited by forwardassist; 23rd Nov 2006 at 10:48. Reason: on a whim
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 10:17
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This thread is in danger of crossing over into the RAF in Meltdown discusion, however all valid points. The RAF is now a business, and is attempting to set itself up as one. The only problem is it's bankrupt, and its greatest asset, its people, cannot be treated like commodities, to use and abuse as required, due to the nature of the job given to them.
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 10:19
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Agree totally with Lafyar. Newly promoted, I have made the decision with Mrs SLC that it isnt worth the heart ache/separation to stay long enough to confirm the pension and have pulled the yellow and black handle to hopeful happiness. I just have to go before I become more bitter about the betrayal of our efforts by an ungrateful government and senior managements lack of inspirational leadership; I am no longer proud of the Royal Air Force in which I serve.

At least the man blowing the leaves on the grass outside my office has a sense of achievement when he goes home..................

Last edited by SaddamsLoveChild; 23rd Nov 2006 at 10:34.
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Old 23rd Nov 2006, 10:29
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Thumbs Up For Bristol Groundschool

countdeblades

MOST DEFINITELY do your ground subjects at Bristol Groundschool. I don't think I could have managed the old CAA Nav exams without Alex Whittingham and his team. His course, now JAR of course, is designed to get you up to speed on exam technique and the 'flavours of the month' in JAR subjects. In other words, a course to pass the exam, not necessarily to learn all the trivial crap that the majority of the syllabus contains.

Alex himself could teach the ENTIRE course from memory (seems to have a brain the size of a planet) but, of course, he hasn't the time. So he has a first rate team all singing from his hymn sheet - "This is how to pass the exam!"

DO IT, yoy know it makes sense. I do not believe there is another course that even comes close to his in terms of giving you the tools to get your little green license.

PS - No, I am not affiliated or paid by BGS. I just know they are the best.
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