oh dear
Chug,
If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right
but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us
On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.
I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right
but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.
I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Your little story above reminds me of being a very young copilot and, as the imprest holder, responsible for accompanying the pax to their hotel, seeing them all accommodated and fed for the night stop, and the bill paid in cash. Only then could I rejoin the crew in our hotel, by which time they were several beers ahead of me! Next morning as soon as the wheels were up, I was off down the back like a Clippie saying "any more fares please" to joining pax. PFC on R&R who can only pay in US dollars? No problem, I'll just start a new sub imprest in that currency! Happy days, and to be fair they were, because we had fun! I'm not so sure that is true today, and I'm not sure why!
Sorry I seem to have drifted, comes with advanced years, now where were we? Oh yes, long walks to terminal, etc. Well the rule is you do what you can. No one can do much more, so if you do what you can for your pax, without it becoming counter productive do it. Try to avoid macho stand offs with ground staffs. You may feel good making some wretched DAMO look small, but he's only going to take it out on the next one in the food chain, who's going to take it out on the pax. Bingo! So let's all lighten up and see if we can simply keep the pax in the loop, and treat them as we would like to be treated ourselves! Simple!
PS the "Cheap Changi Watch" takes me back, haven't heard that one in ages!
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ABIW,
Believe it or not but Brize Sqns also spend time away on Dets, we may even have to tap sand out of our boots. I personally enjoy the flying and it fattens the logbook!
I have enjoyed the dubious pleasure of a solar shower bag on more than one det.
Believe it or not but Brize Sqns also spend time away on Dets, we may even have to tap sand out of our boots. I personally enjoy the flying and it fattens the logbook!
I have enjoyed the dubious pleasure of a solar shower bag on more than one det.
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Chug,
On the J ALM's have always handled the imprest so your regailing brings a smile to my face..........or is it a grimace, whatever the imprest is often a bundle of fun and long may it continue
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
On the J ALM's have always handled the imprest so your regailing brings a smile to my face..........or is it a grimace, whatever the imprest is often a bundle of fun and long may it continue
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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ABIW, Lol, yeah, never again. And for the record, I too have sent the loadie down to the subway for 75 feet of sandwich to feed the pax when "the rules" didn't provide for it. (actually, it was 45 feet for the loadie, and 30' for the pax. I'M JOKING, DON'T TEAR STRIPS OFF ME)
SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?
SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?
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You know that I have no real idea about the regs we are talking about other than crew duty time. We all have regs to abide to and we all know how we can bend thouse regs when it suits us. So unless you are whiter than white dont go there.
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ABIW, Lol, yeah, never again. And for the record, I too have sent the loadie down to the subway for 75 feet of sandwich to feed the pax when "the rules" didn't provide for it. (actually, it was 45 feet for the loadie, and 30' for the pax. I'M JOKING, DON'T TEAR STRIPS OFF ME)
SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?
SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?
How many people in this forum say "good morning" when they walk to work??
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Ratty,
I take umbrage with your last comments and want immediately the identity of the tw@t who defended the movers...............straight jacket and padded cell for that ar@e right now .........and it's not flyboy!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I take umbrage with your last comments and want immediately the identity of the tw@t who defended the movers...............straight jacket and padded cell for that ar@e right now
.........and it's not flyboy!!all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I can never find my hat, so I have to drive to work! But you're right, it goes a long way.
Ratty, I wasn't apologising for the movers. I was apologising as the customer facing chap, who usually is the one making the decision to delay/divert etc, thereby causing the passengers to be subjected to more poor treatment, and as an ambassador for the AT fleet. Perception is often that it is us, as aircrew, causing the delays. Obviously to you and I it's not, but perception is what is is.
Ratty, I wasn't apologising for the movers. I was apologising as the customer facing chap, who usually is the one making the decision to delay/divert etc, thereby causing the passengers to be subjected to more poor treatment, and as an ambassador for the AT fleet. Perception is often that it is us, as aircrew, causing the delays. Obviously to you and I it's not, but perception is what is is.
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So you are still saying that we bend the rules to bugger the Pax around so we can have another night stop. What precisley are you crew duty regulations? If you are ever a passenger on my aircraft you will receive a good service. I am not about to start apologising for the service you receive from the Movers, unlike some others on this thread.
No I am not!!!!
On the positive side I have had some brill times on AT. Like the time I was stood up on the flight deck with my Vid cam coming into Bermuda/Azores/Alaska.
The time when a Jag Sqn was on board and the got normal white buttie boxes, but I was on board to fix a tonka in Djon france and they treated me like royalty.
The night we completelty trashed a herc to find a Hyd pipe for a tornado and the Loadie turned up at 2 in the morning and tieded the place up.
The day in bermuda when a tristar and herc crew really looked after us!!!!!!
I know what goes on.
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so nice being a mover
Have read through this thread and feel the need to comment. Being on duty on the day of this incident at the aircraft's home base, we knew before if left theatre that is was going to be u/s on arrival in Cyprus. We had a eng rep passed from the GE before it left.
Would all aircrew who have told us how good they all are at looking after passengers, care to explain why the pax were only told of the problem after they arrived at AKT. Too busy in the five hours to be the great communicators and people focus types they claim to be?
In the controlling authority we sorted out getting the needed part in place to get the jet home nad back into the plot, and investigated how to recover the pax.
I cannot claim that the staff at AKT did a good job, but can remind you of another fact that has been forgotten. AKT movs staff are in the RAF, they will work for as long as they are told to. The big shift problem there is the civvy fire staff. When we have an aircraft delayed that is going to arrive at AKT after the published opening hours, we have to get PJHQ approval to make the station stay open. This is because we have to PAY from a BUDGET.
In finnishing can I just say in my 20 plus years I have never stolen from baggage, trashed anyones kit, deliberately sent anything to the wrong place or tried to be anything other than polite. This I would say has also applied for the vast majority of the other 850 members of my trade.
However, people here tell us we are all crap and use oxygen that should be for others. Keep telling us that, we might just start to believe you and live up to your expectations. How do you hold such a broad brush?
Would all aircrew who have told us how good they all are at looking after passengers, care to explain why the pax were only told of the problem after they arrived at AKT. Too busy in the five hours to be the great communicators and people focus types they claim to be?
In the controlling authority we sorted out getting the needed part in place to get the jet home nad back into the plot, and investigated how to recover the pax.
I cannot claim that the staff at AKT did a good job, but can remind you of another fact that has been forgotten. AKT movs staff are in the RAF, they will work for as long as they are told to. The big shift problem there is the civvy fire staff. When we have an aircraft delayed that is going to arrive at AKT after the published opening hours, we have to get PJHQ approval to make the station stay open. This is because we have to PAY from a BUDGET.
In finnishing can I just say in my 20 plus years I have never stolen from baggage, trashed anyones kit, deliberately sent anything to the wrong place or tried to be anything other than polite. This I would say has also applied for the vast majority of the other 850 members of my trade.
However, people here tell us we are all crap and use oxygen that should be for others. Keep telling us that, we might just start to believe you and live up to your expectations. How do you hold such a broad brush?
Yes, Him
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One happy customer, from the USAF site.
I spent three days trying to get from my deployment spot back to the Deid with the US Air Force. I showed up to numerous "showtimes" and had to show social security numbers, orders, PERSCO releases, and tons of other crap. They gave me three days of runaround and still couldn't get me out.
So last night I walk over to the British desk and ask "got any space on your flight out later?" I showed my ID and they handed me a boarding card. I was out in a couple hours.
Screw AMC. I fly RAF now.
to the Brits! Thanks guys.
I'm off to enjoy my three beers now.
So last night I walk over to the British desk and ask "got any space on your flight out later?" I showed my ID and they handed me a boarding card. I was out in a couple hours.
Screw AMC. I fly RAF now.
to the Brits! Thanks guys.
I'm off to enjoy my three beers now.
So the preceding posts must be the famous banter everyone is using these days. So witty and amusing! Do please have another torpedo sandwich Mr Wilde! And if Nurse can put all the toys back in the pram, we can continue.
Now where were we, oh yes the prologue, and what an appropriate one indeed! "Oh dear", I couldn't have come up with anything more appropriate. Well done Serf, you certainly lifted a lid on this one. The words Cat and Pigeons come to mind! But amidst all the hyperbole from all sides, I feel that there have been some thoughtful posts, but some worrying attitudes also.
The main thing that strikes me is the absence of any posts, to my knowledge, from serving movers. I understand that they have been posting elsewhere, but it would help if someone from amongst them could briefly say how they see this from their perspective without being abused for doing so. Exqcy, as a ex mover, gave us his thoughts on the present state of affairs, so come on boys and girls let's hear from you.
Now where were we, oh yes the prologue, and what an appropriate one indeed! "Oh dear", I couldn't have come up with anything more appropriate. Well done Serf, you certainly lifted a lid on this one. The words Cat and Pigeons come to mind! But amidst all the hyperbole from all sides, I feel that there have been some thoughtful posts, but some worrying attitudes also.
The main thing that strikes me is the absence of any posts, to my knowledge, from serving movers. I understand that they have been posting elsewhere, but it would help if someone from amongst them could briefly say how they see this from their perspective without being abused for doing so. Exqcy, as a ex mover, gave us his thoughts on the present state of affairs, so come on boys and girls let's hear from you.
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The main thing that strikes me is the absence of any posts, to my knowledge, from serving movers. I understand that they have been posting elsewhere, but it would help if someone from amongst them could briefly say how they see this from their perspective without being abused for doing so. Exqcy, as a ex mover, gave us his thoughts on the present state of affairs, so come on boys and girls let's hear from you.
>>>>>HERE<<<<<
Oooh update....It would appear even the RN are getting in on the act at Rum Ration.
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Finger pointing.....:confused:
Like several others, i wasn't going to post here, but having read some of the inter-service, inter-trade and inter-stn rants over the past couple of pages - am i the only one that sees them a little hipocritical?
Several posts saying that "the AT fleet" needs to sort its act out as if BZZ and LYN are UK AT plc. WE ALL are AT-RAF-HM Forces (ok, so not quite Unit-Corps-God-Country
) at some level, and we are ALL trying to work under the most unprecedented political onslaught on the military in history. Like many here, i have worked with Movers on a daily basis, and to be honest, I do not relish the prospect upon my return to the AT fleet; they do have some of the worst manning levels in the RAF at the moment but at the end of the day "Manners cost nowt".
What i do look forward to though is the challenge of providing the best, safest and most timely service possible within the contstraints that are now strangling the forces as a whole.
By all means rant - that's what Pprune is for
but please do not turn it into a broadbrush professional attack on fellow servicemen and women ....there is clearly a major problem and hopefully this letter can raise the issue to some form of action/conclusion.
I await the onslaught
Uncle G
Several posts saying that "the AT fleet" needs to sort its act out as if BZZ and LYN are UK AT plc. WE ALL are AT-RAF-HM Forces (ok, so not quite Unit-Corps-God-Country
) at some level, and we are ALL trying to work under the most unprecedented political onslaught on the military in history. Like many here, i have worked with Movers on a daily basis, and to be honest, I do not relish the prospect upon my return to the AT fleet; they do have some of the worst manning levels in the RAF at the moment but at the end of the day "Manners cost nowt".What i do look forward to though is the challenge of providing the best, safest and most timely service possible within the contstraints that are now strangling the forces as a whole.
By all means rant - that's what Pprune is for
but please do not turn it into a broadbrush professional attack on fellow servicemen and women ....there is clearly a major problem and hopefully this letter can raise the issue to some form of action/conclusion.I await the onslaught
Uncle G
M747, Thanks for that, and to be fair quite a few of them seem to be taking notice about what has been said here, as well as arrse,rum etc. Maybe the technocrats could organise an inter forum thread one day?
UG Couldn't agree more, discuss but don't damn! My perspective on this is coloured by some 26 years with the airlines. The difference being, of course, that the Pax also pay your wages (in my case the little old lady in 13E!), and everyone is, or should be, aware of that. None the less the only reason we have an AT fleet, squadrons, ENG wings, MAMS, bases, Ops etc etc is because of the Passengers and the Freight. The only reason for the CAT system, TACEVAL, Medicals etc is the Passengers and Freight. They should be central in the mind of everyone in the AT game, wherever or whatever they are.
I remember many, many, years ago an RAF flight safety film called "Frustration" about a Javelin crew (told you it was long ago) ferrying an aircraft down the CENTO route. As the title suggests they were stymied by all and sundry. Mess stewards, Stores... well you get the picture! It all ends in tears in the Gan lagoon IIRC. Perhaps it is time for another such Cecil B deMille production focused on passengers!
UG Couldn't agree more, discuss but don't damn! My perspective on this is coloured by some 26 years with the airlines. The difference being, of course, that the Pax also pay your wages (in my case the little old lady in 13E!), and everyone is, or should be, aware of that. None the less the only reason we have an AT fleet, squadrons, ENG wings, MAMS, bases, Ops etc etc is because of the Passengers and the Freight. The only reason for the CAT system, TACEVAL, Medicals etc is the Passengers and Freight. They should be central in the mind of everyone in the AT game, wherever or whatever they are.
I remember many, many, years ago an RAF flight safety film called "Frustration" about a Javelin crew (told you it was long ago) ferrying an aircraft down the CENTO route. As the title suggests they were stymied by all and sundry. Mess stewards, Stores... well you get the picture! It all ends in tears in the Gan lagoon IIRC. Perhaps it is time for another such Cecil B deMille production focused on passengers!
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Indra Dhanush RTB
A few observations from the AT trail that returned the majority of the people on Exercise Indra Dhanush.
A Tri* was used to trail 6 F3's back to UK via Al Dhafra and Akrotiri. Why the Tri* could had to go to Abu Dhabi Intl and Rhodes for the night stops is difficult to explain. I believe the Tri* did get back to UK more or less on time which was good news.
The C17 that carried 40ish personnel back to the UK via Al Dhafra, Akrotiri and Leuchars was reliable and the crew tried to accomodate the wishes of the numerous Waddington personnel on board, absolutely no problems with the crew whatsoever. Where there were problems for the crew was that they arrived in India not aware that they were to take pax back to UK, even though all pax had been told a week earlier that we were returning by C17. This may have had a bonus as there were no AT Sy to conduct our check-in at Agra. There were also very few movers on the aircraft too.
When the C17 arrived in Akrotiri, about 1730 local, the crew promptly disappered off (to a hotel?), all pax were loaded into 2 buses and dumped at two transit accomodation blocks. There was no briefing whatsoever on meal arrangements, or even what time we were to be collected the following morning for our onward flight. At no time were any Cyprus personnel anywhere to be seen. As far as I am aware there is still Officers and SNCO's messes in Akrotiri, so why were we given 8-man rooms in transit accomodation so far away from the messes?
The morning of leaving Akrotiri involved us reporting to the terminal 2 1/2 hours before take-off so that we could be checked in by AT Sy and movements, all a bit late really, and why could the Duty Free shop not be opened?
The C17 is capable of flying from India to UK directly, so why was it necessary for two night stops on the way, a waste of fuel, time and money?
Just a few observations, but at least everyone got back to UK more or less on time so we have something to be thankful for.
As for the exercise aircraft, at least two of the F3's never made it to Cyprus, and the E-3D made it back to Waddington on schedule.
Castle
ps, Serf, I am fairly certain that CAS and COS Ops flew to Delhi by civair.
A Tri* was used to trail 6 F3's back to UK via Al Dhafra and Akrotiri. Why the Tri* could had to go to Abu Dhabi Intl and Rhodes for the night stops is difficult to explain. I believe the Tri* did get back to UK more or less on time which was good news.
The C17 that carried 40ish personnel back to the UK via Al Dhafra, Akrotiri and Leuchars was reliable and the crew tried to accomodate the wishes of the numerous Waddington personnel on board, absolutely no problems with the crew whatsoever. Where there were problems for the crew was that they arrived in India not aware that they were to take pax back to UK, even though all pax had been told a week earlier that we were returning by C17. This may have had a bonus as there were no AT Sy to conduct our check-in at Agra. There were also very few movers on the aircraft too.
When the C17 arrived in Akrotiri, about 1730 local, the crew promptly disappered off (to a hotel?), all pax were loaded into 2 buses and dumped at two transit accomodation blocks. There was no briefing whatsoever on meal arrangements, or even what time we were to be collected the following morning for our onward flight. At no time were any Cyprus personnel anywhere to be seen. As far as I am aware there is still Officers and SNCO's messes in Akrotiri, so why were we given 8-man rooms in transit accomodation so far away from the messes?
The morning of leaving Akrotiri involved us reporting to the terminal 2 1/2 hours before take-off so that we could be checked in by AT Sy and movements, all a bit late really, and why could the Duty Free shop not be opened?
The C17 is capable of flying from India to UK directly, so why was it necessary for two night stops on the way, a waste of fuel, time and money?
Just a few observations, but at least everyone got back to UK more or less on time so we have something to be thankful for.
As for the exercise aircraft, at least two of the F3's never made it to Cyprus, and the E-3D made it back to Waddington on schedule.
Castle
ps, Serf, I am fairly certain that CAS and COS Ops flew to Delhi by civair.
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We were stuck for a further 3 days - call me a cynic but something smelled of a very stinky kipper.
When we finally did get the nod to return to the UK, the action by the RAFP at McCarron, with regards to bag searching, was appalling - but that's a whole other story!
M7 Sends
