Red v Blue - Arrows or Angels
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Both the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels have "virtual" imitators now. Just goes to show what you can do these days.
From you-tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebumAfCe4HE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivFXJPeNSs
From you-tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebumAfCe4HE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivFXJPeNSs
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Hawk TMk1A (as used by the Red Arrows) were modified during the early 80's to carry Sidewinder missiles (and an Aden cannon pod) in order to carry out duties with the MFF (Mixed Fighter Force), using one F4 Phantom or F3 Tornado paired with two Hawks.
Yes they are still designated as training a/c but they have some teeth and are at least 'combat capable' if only in a small way.
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Both the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels have "virtual" imitators now. Just goes to show what you can do these days.
From you-tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebumAfCe4HE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivFXJPeNSs
From you-tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebumAfCe4HE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivFXJPeNSs
I always found formation flying to be much more difficult when playing on the computer than in real life (depth perception, ability to shift gaze etc.). IF those vids are kosher, I'll be very, very impressed.
Now then, as to who's the better team... Having seen the Reds and the Blues at work, I'm going to sit on the fence. In terms of the full team displays, I think the Reds have it. In terms of the Synchro Pair versus the 2 "Solos", I'm going to have to say that the Blues look more impressive. However, I'm not sure whether this is due to the higher performance of the F/A-18 or superior airmanship. To that end, I fear we might be comparing apples and oranges unless the Blues re-equip with T-45s- and on the day that happens, Satan will be travelling to work on a snowplough. (Although it might be interesting to compare tapes from the days when they flew the A-4.)
One thing though- the silly dance routine the Blue Angels do before and after the flying display is the least heterosexual thing I have seen happen on an airfield- ever. I don't know whose idea that was, but I fervently hope that he was taken out into a field and shot.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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The vids are Kosher, the virtual Thunderbirds are even sponsored.
Here are the websites.
http://www.virtualthunderbirds.com/
http://www.thevirtualblueangels.com/
There are other teams springing up as well.
Here are the websites.
http://www.virtualthunderbirds.com/
http://www.thevirtualblueangels.com/
There are other teams springing up as well.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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The Reds are an astute testemant to proper airmanship of the highest calibre.
Tight, precision flying, with the beautiful accuracy of which only the best can perform
They are a credit to the UK and promote the superiority of British airmanship to other nations, as well as providing a superb recruitment tool for those who wish to join the RAF in whatever capacity.
They literally are our flying advert.
Never heard of the Blue Eagles VVHA
Sure you meant the Blue Angels?
TW
Tight, precision flying, with the beautiful accuracy of which only the best can perform
They are a credit to the UK and promote the superiority of British airmanship to other nations, as well as providing a superb recruitment tool for those who wish to join the RAF in whatever capacity.
They literally are our flying advert.
Never heard of the Blue Eagles VVHA
Sure you meant the Blue Angels?
TW
Here is their official website.
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Back in the early 70s I was stationed at the Embassy at Washington DC and attended daily the very first International Air Show and Transport Expo (Transpo 72). This was the first occasion that a formation of Foreign Aircraft had ever flown over mainland USA (That what was quoted by the show organisers) All the American Military Display teams were there. OK it was over 30 years but it was accepted by all present both professional and the public that the Reds were far superior to all the other teams. In fact the following year both the Air Force (T38?) and the Navy switched to smaller aircraft from the F4. Since then I have seen nothing that from the American Teams or any other for that matter to change my opinion that the Red Arrows are the best precision aerobatic team in the world. Last week there was a programme on the Blue Angels and if my memory serves me correctly they stated as one of their aircraft reaches the end of its fatigue life they then bring in the oldest aircraft still in use strip everything down a bit different from what they say on their web site The Blue Angel F/A-18s have the nose cannon removed, a smoke-oil tank installed and a spring installed on the stick which applies pressure for better formation and inverted flying. Otherwise, the aircraft that the squadron flies are the same as those in the fleet. Each Blue Angel aircraft is fleet capable of being returned to combat duty aboard an aircraft carrier within 72 hours.
Untitled
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Its more than time for some fresh thinking re: Red Arrows. Watch the public at air shows and I think you will find they are not that interested. Too much ho-hum. They are no longer the must-wait-for climax of air shows (public usually watch at a distance from the car park).
Mind you, I can't comment about their relative rankings at airshows, I haven't been to a "jet" one for a while, warbirds are more my thing these days.
I agree that XH558 may well be a big draw next year, if the PR is handled well!
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Having spent the last four or five RIATs standing in front of a static display aircraft I can confirm that our 'trade' slows down when the Reds are on. So some of the public are still interested.
I'm fortunate enough to have seen several of the teams in action, and to have hitched a ride in Red 2 during a display (awesome experience). From a slightly biased perspective I'd say the Reds are still the best I've seen, although the USAF and USN teams are excellent.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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There is no contest...
Americans do it louder, faster maybe
French and italians may add a little pizzaz (I think thats how you spell it)
Reds are as British as Fish and Chips and ARE world renowned - go to any country in Europe, the americas and most of asia and most would recognise the Reds.
Some of my friends from the French airforce grew up wanting to be a Red Arrow and still do, despite flying Mirage 2000-5s
The Reds do it and win hands down...
Discuss
Americans do it louder, faster maybe
French and italians may add a little pizzaz (I think thats how you spell it)
Reds are as British as Fish and Chips and ARE world renowned - go to any country in Europe, the americas and most of asia and most would recognise the Reds.
Some of my friends from the French airforce grew up wanting to be a Red Arrow and still do, despite flying Mirage 2000-5s
The Reds do it and win hands down...
Discuss
Join Date: Aug 2006
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As a serving hawk (instructor) pilot I thought I would throw my hat into the ring........
The reds are superb at what they do, (and as some have, in the past, accused me of malice and indeed jealousy I felt duty bound to make that statement!) and are a great advertisement for the UK.
Are they a great "Recruiting" tool?
No.
Back in the early 80s, I along with a friend of mine were watching the umpteenth air display of the summer as 15 year olds. What were we inspired to join up by? Well for me the Vulcan did the trick. For my friend a pair of combat ready Phantoms rang his bell. When the Reds came along, we were, (sorry hawk mates!) jaded by the repetative, "low voltage" display.
20 odd years on, I'm a hawk instructor, my learned friend is flying for the Civvy Cops on board a helichopper. (After a brief career as a Herc mate!) So the displays did the trick, they recruited us as flyers. But it wasn't thanks to the reds.
Now... Who's the best? The Reds have my admiration for the best, most precise display going. They're (in my opinion) the best display pilots in the world.
The most impressive? The Yanks have it, nothing beats power and noise in a display!
The moral? RAF, change the display aircraft! And if I ever see another wineglass roll, I'll thcweam and thcweam until I'm thick!
The reds are superb at what they do, (and as some have, in the past, accused me of malice and indeed jealousy I felt duty bound to make that statement!) and are a great advertisement for the UK.
Are they a great "Recruiting" tool?
No.
Back in the early 80s, I along with a friend of mine were watching the umpteenth air display of the summer as 15 year olds. What were we inspired to join up by? Well for me the Vulcan did the trick. For my friend a pair of combat ready Phantoms rang his bell. When the Reds came along, we were, (sorry hawk mates!) jaded by the repetative, "low voltage" display.
20 odd years on, I'm a hawk instructor, my learned friend is flying for the Civvy Cops on board a helichopper. (After a brief career as a Herc mate!) So the displays did the trick, they recruited us as flyers. But it wasn't thanks to the reds.
Now... Who's the best? The Reds have my admiration for the best, most precise display going. They're (in my opinion) the best display pilots in the world.
The most impressive? The Yanks have it, nothing beats power and noise in a display!
The moral? RAF, change the display aircraft! And if I ever see another wineglass roll, I'll thcweam and thcweam until I'm thick!
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preference
I have flown with the Reds and Blues as a pax. I have also taken members of the Blues, Thunderbirds and Reds for a ride during a Snowbird practice. The Reds and Blues presented dislpays that were extremely impressive from the ground, air and briefing room. The pilots on both teams are talented and approach their jobs with the same professionalism and intensity. The shows vary from year to year in precision and detail that is largely lost on the average spectator. I doubt that any one team would consistently win top awards for the best display but the pilots doing the job are smiling the whole time. I love watching them all still.
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No ratty, I'm not the one thank you! Never applied.
As you can see from reading my post above, I never aspired to the reds, although I respect their flying.
Read more carefully in future!
Thanks anyway,
Hawkman.
As you can see from reading my post above, I never aspired to the reds, although I respect their flying.
Read more carefully in future!
Thanks anyway,
Hawkman.
JetBlast member 2005.
JetBlast member 2006.
Banned 2007
JetBlast member 2006.
Banned 2007
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I thought this
was incorrect but I might have to reconsider that.
Apparently, the RAF trained for a brief time at Avenger Field in Sweetwater Texas, http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/...s/SS/qcs1.html later home of the WASP program
What I didn't know was that they also trained at Love Field in Dallas
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...06/ai_n8908270 before they settled into a long term stay in Terrell Texas. http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2003/killebrew.htm In fact I believe there are still headstones in a cemetary in Terrell that comemerate airmen killed in training.
I say I might have to reconsider, because it seemed reasonable to expect that a training course would include some formation flying, however one of those links suggests that the men were shipped here, but not equipment. Training took place in T6s, PT22s etc, so I suppose the original claim may be correct.
This was the first occasion that a formation of Foreign Aircraft had ever flown over mainland USA (That what was quoted by the show organisers)
Apparently, the RAF trained for a brief time at Avenger Field in Sweetwater Texas, http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/...s/SS/qcs1.html later home of the WASP program
What I didn't know was that they also trained at Love Field in Dallas
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...06/ai_n8908270 before they settled into a long term stay in Terrell Texas. http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2003/killebrew.htm In fact I believe there are still headstones in a cemetary in Terrell that comemerate airmen killed in training.
I say I might have to reconsider, because it seemed reasonable to expect that a training course would include some formation flying, however one of those links suggests that the men were shipped here, but not equipment. Training took place in T6s, PT22s etc, so I suppose the original claim may be correct.
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Agree with Razor on that respect. Its not often that a RW can steal the show but the Lynx bacflip is an awesome manoeuvre.....superb. The Chinook running backwards takeoff is also a good crowd pleaser....thats gotta be the only aircraft that can do that...very good.
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The vids are Kosher, the virtual Thunderbirds are even sponsored.
Here are the websites.
http://www.virtualthunderbirds.com/
http://www.thevirtualblueangels.com/
There are other teams springing up as well.
Here are the websites.
http://www.virtualthunderbirds.com/
http://www.thevirtualblueangels.com/
There are other teams springing up as well.
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Reds are great. Waste of money though. Never aspired to do that, dropping bombs on the bad guys is better. Most of the really good Hawk flying is not for public eye.
As stated earlier, displays by front line jets attract more of the ice cream licking public into the military than formation in gay colours.
Overzealous congratulatory comments like 'brilliant airmanship' etc are up to the indivudual. Front line applicability??? - It is flying after all, so who cares.
Blues more 'technically' pleasing, ThunderB's mostly boring.
Only the SPAMS want the saluting BS etc.
Snowbirds 'OK'.
Tricolor (in italian) 'nice'
Roulettes (lawnmower formation)
The french team (forgets name) - copycats.
....and why don't the Reds get an Albert with the JATO bit?
......and yes, finally, I do socialise with the Reds when they come to town. Good luck to them, they are doing what they wanted to do. (Especially those endless weekends away from family).
As stated earlier, displays by front line jets attract more of the ice cream licking public into the military than formation in gay colours.
Overzealous congratulatory comments like 'brilliant airmanship' etc are up to the indivudual. Front line applicability??? - It is flying after all, so who cares.
Blues more 'technically' pleasing, ThunderB's mostly boring.
Only the SPAMS want the saluting BS etc.
Snowbirds 'OK'.
Tricolor (in italian) 'nice'
Roulettes (lawnmower formation)
The french team (forgets name) - copycats.
....and why don't the Reds get an Albert with the JATO bit?
......and yes, finally, I do socialise with the Reds when they come to town. Good luck to them, they are doing what they wanted to do. (Especially those endless weekends away from family).
Last edited by L J R; 5th Sep 2006 at 13:06. Reason: Spelling - again!!
All the formation teams have their own style and attraction:
Frecce - showmanship and some crazy flying
Patrouille - mostly large formations, (IIRC), but graceful
Blue Angels - very, very close formation! Commentary....hmmmm. Sounds like a high pressure TV commercial.
Tbirds - truly cringeworthy pre-flight antics and jingoistic commentary. Tight formation......when they can actually be seen.
Reds - very well synchronised Enid and Gippo displays; the Hawk doesn't look as good as the Gnat did in diamond nine though, due to the sweep angle.
Turkish stars - hugely amusing commentator!
Long may they all continue.
But the Black Arrows with their Hunters were the best, in my opinion!
Frecce - showmanship and some crazy flying
Patrouille - mostly large formations, (IIRC), but graceful
Blue Angels - very, very close formation! Commentary....hmmmm. Sounds like a high pressure TV commercial.
Tbirds - truly cringeworthy pre-flight antics and jingoistic commentary. Tight formation......when they can actually be seen.
Reds - very well synchronised Enid and Gippo displays; the Hawk doesn't look as good as the Gnat did in diamond nine though, due to the sweep angle.
Turkish stars - hugely amusing commentator!
Long may they all continue.
But the Black Arrows with their Hunters were the best, in my opinion!
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Ah the Blacks - now you're talking.
I think that you are all missing the point. All these displays are entertainment and our sad lives would be poorer for their loss. As a civillian for the last thirty years, I adore to watch them all. I also know how much pleasure they give where ever they display. Go to Eastbourne this year and watch the crowds. They are entranced.
I think that you are all missing the point. All these displays are entertainment and our sad lives would be poorer for their loss. As a civillian for the last thirty years, I adore to watch them all. I also know how much pleasure they give where ever they display. Go to Eastbourne this year and watch the crowds. They are entranced.