Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
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Gas Fitter.
"A little less 'headline grabbibg' statement and a little more considered thought would have been taken more seriously and had a better impact in support of the RAF and equipment support for the MOD".
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So the Coroner's findings are nonsense? Admitted, I TOO have not heard the full story but I do not raise children only to have them fly rusty, ageing old crates in the name of expediency and cost cutting.
"A little less 'headline grabbibg' statement and a little more considered thought would have been taken more seriously and had a better impact in support of the RAF and equipment support for the MOD".
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So the Coroner's findings are nonsense? Admitted, I TOO have not heard the full story but I do not raise children only to have them fly rusty, ageing old crates in the name of expediency and cost cutting.
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The risk of NOT having these aircraft operating would put more troops on the ground at risk, and at any future Coroners Court, they will say "why isn't there any air support?".
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MOD/Government has been having an "issue" with the Oxfordshire coroner for a long time as he has been imposing "civilian" ideas on the examination of Iraqi/Afghanistan deaths.
MOD/Government have been trying to bully him and have been doing devious things to delay inquests. The latest may OR MAY NOT BE the fact that the area of inquests will be transferred because flights will be diverted to another county due to runway works.
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As far as his comments - they should be based purely on what evidence was presented to him. If he comes up with a controversial judgement it is PROBABLY because the MOD case was crap.
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MOD/Government have been trying to bully him and have been doing devious things to delay inquests. The latest may OR MAY NOT BE the fact that the area of inquests will be transferred because flights will be diverted to another county due to runway works.
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As far as his comments - they should be based purely on what evidence was presented to him. If he comes up with a controversial judgement it is PROBABLY because the MOD case was crap.
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This is surely a day for the families. Their courage, tenacity and resolve to discover the circumstances of the deaths of their loved ones has at last culminated in this verdict passed by the inestimable Mr Walker. He is to be commended for his professional and thorough findings. They may be uncomfortable even unacceptable to some, but if any good is to come out of this tragedy it is surely to utterly reform the provision of Military Airworthiness in the UK. This was not an isolated case, but symptomatic of a broken system. Hopefully this inquest will be seen in retrospect as the turning point in that downward spiral. A particular mention for NoK that have posted here, in particular Tapper's Dad who despite considerable opposition and even hostility has in my view been vindicated; Kam whose quiet courage and resolve has never wavered, and of course Chappie another stalwart of the XV270 thread, following the loss of her beloved brother, the both of them bringing love and support to those who have suffered from this tragedy. Let them all be an inspiration for the rest of us that a positive outcome results from this terrible loss.
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mod website
Lead article on the MODs website
Minister of State for the Armed Forces Bob Ainsworth MP and the RAF's most senior engineer, Air Marshal Sir Barry Thornton, have made statements following the conclusion of the Inquest into the crash of RAF Nimrod XV230 on 2 September 2006 in which 14 servicemen lost their lives.
Nimrod MR2
Air Marshal Sir Barry Thornton, Chief of Materiel (Air), said:
Minister of State for the Armed Forces Bob Ainsworth MP and the RAF's most senior engineer, Air Marshal Sir Barry Thornton, have made statements following the conclusion of the Inquest into the crash of RAF Nimrod XV230 on 2 September 2006 in which 14 servicemen lost their lives.
Nimrod MR2Air Marshal Sir Barry Thornton, Chief of Materiel (Air), said:
"My thoughts today are first and foremost with the families and friends of those who died, and with the men and women of the Armed Forces, who I know feel the loss of their colleagues very deeply.
"From the evidence heard at the Inquest, and from the findings of the Board of Inquiry, it is clear that the crew of XV230 acted with the utmost professionalism in the face of a complex and demanding emergency situation. I pay tribute to their courage and dedication.
"With respect to the airworthiness of the aircraft today, we have stopped air-to-air refuelling and no longer use the very hot air systems in flight. This eradicates any dangers from the serious design failures noted by the Coroner that have been present in this aircraft since the 1980s. These measures have been supplemented with enhanced aircraft maintenance and inspection procedures to ensure the aircraft, as it is today, is safe to fly.
"In addition, to ensure we can operate the aircraft safely until its planned retirement from service, we have in place an effective package of more permanent measures which are being progressed as quickly as practicable. All of this work and our safety assessment are based on advice from both inside and outside the Department.
"I can assure you that the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Air Force place the highest priority on airworthiness and the safety of our personnel in the air and those we support in operations in the ground. We would not ask our personnel to fly in aircraft we did not believe were safe."
Bob Ainsworth said:"From the evidence heard at the Inquest, and from the findings of the Board of Inquiry, it is clear that the crew of XV230 acted with the utmost professionalism in the face of a complex and demanding emergency situation. I pay tribute to their courage and dedication.
"With respect to the airworthiness of the aircraft today, we have stopped air-to-air refuelling and no longer use the very hot air systems in flight. This eradicates any dangers from the serious design failures noted by the Coroner that have been present in this aircraft since the 1980s. These measures have been supplemented with enhanced aircraft maintenance and inspection procedures to ensure the aircraft, as it is today, is safe to fly.
"In addition, to ensure we can operate the aircraft safely until its planned retirement from service, we have in place an effective package of more permanent measures which are being progressed as quickly as practicable. All of this work and our safety assessment are based on advice from both inside and outside the Department.
"I can assure you that the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Air Force place the highest priority on airworthiness and the safety of our personnel in the air and those we support in operations in the ground. We would not ask our personnel to fly in aircraft we did not believe were safe."
"My thoughts are with the families, friends and colleagues of those who died in XV230. On behalf of the MOD and the Royal Air Force, I would like to apologise again to the families of those who died for our failings which led to this tragic incident.
"I would like to reassure all those concerned that the Chief of the Air Staff has reaffirmed to me that the Nimrod is airworthy, and that we are dealing with all the issues raised by this incident. The independent review of the airworthiness and safety of the Nimrod is ongoing.
"I have noted the coroner's comments and I will consider them carefully. The Nimrod is saving lives in operational theatres every day. However, if it was not safe we would not be flying it; it is safe with the measures we have taken and that is why we will not be grounding the fleet.
"Finally, in remembering the crew of V230, we must not forget that that they acted with the utmost professionalism throughout and I pay tribute to them."
"I would like to reassure all those concerned that the Chief of the Air Staff has reaffirmed to me that the Nimrod is airworthy, and that we are dealing with all the issues raised by this incident. The independent review of the airworthiness and safety of the Nimrod is ongoing.
"I have noted the coroner's comments and I will consider them carefully. The Nimrod is saving lives in operational theatres every day. However, if it was not safe we would not be flying it; it is safe with the measures we have taken and that is why we will not be grounding the fleet.
"Finally, in remembering the crew of V230, we must not forget that that they acted with the utmost professionalism throughout and I pay tribute to them."
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Do you think that senior officers and government MPs hav autocorrect enabled on MS office so that any press release starts with the phrase:
"My thoughts today are first and foremost with the families and friends of those who died, and with the men and women of the Armed Forces, who I know feel the loss of their colleagues very deeply."
or similar.
I don't know about everyone else, but it's starting to sound a bit hollow.
"My thoughts today are first and foremost with the families and friends of those who died, and with the men and women of the Armed Forces, who I know feel the loss of their colleagues very deeply."
or similar.
I don't know about everyone else, but it's starting to sound a bit hollow.
Last edited by Doha_lad; 23rd May 2008 at 13:39. Reason: afterthought
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Air Marshal Sir Barry Thornton, Chief of Materiel (Air)
....."This eradicates any dangers from the serious design failures noted by the Coroner that have been present in this aircraft since the 1980s........
......We would not ask our personnel to fly in aircraft we did not believe were safe."
Surely the AM is contradicting his own statement!!!
....."This eradicates any dangers from the serious design failures noted by the Coroner that have been present in this aircraft since the 1980s........
......We would not ask our personnel to fly in aircraft we did not believe were safe."
Surely the AM is contradicting his own statement!!!
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JTD
This question is at the very heart of our overstretched expeditionary adventures.
In Korea, the UK lost over 1100 military personnel in 3 years. No Coroners inquests, no Health & Safety prosecutions, no calls for ac grounding etc. We are all proud and thankful for their sacrifice.
War involves painful sacrifices which is part of the risk we understand. I do not believe that anyone goes to work in the morning with a deliberate aim of killing their comrades.
It seems to me that the Coroners want a 'risk-free' combat operations. The whole point of war is that people get killed and we should think long and hard about commiting to such action .... that's the point!
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Just a quick thought, maybe if there had been a few coroners inquests, then, just maybe less than 1100 people would have died.......
Last edited by Bring_back_Buck; 23rd May 2008 at 13:59. Reason: typo
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Combat is an inherently risky activity!
Surely the Powers That Be have a "duty of care" (their words, not mine) to minimise said risks.
DL
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And maybe if those tight fisted bastards in government stumped up the cash for the right kit for our armed forces, we wouldnt have people die needlessly.
About time Gordon and this socialist government put its money where its priorities lie... and I am not talking about propping up banks that have strong links with the Labour government, such as Northern Rock...
Its one thing to die for the cause and your country if your number is up, its another thing all together to die as a result of the government not investing the cash to give you the best fighting chance in theatre. Disgraceful.
About time Gordon and this socialist government put its money where its priorities lie... and I am not talking about propping up banks that have strong links with the Labour government, such as Northern Rock...
Its one thing to die for the cause and your country if your number is up, its another thing all together to die as a result of the government not investing the cash to give you the best fighting chance in theatre. Disgraceful.
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Gas Fitter, the can do attitude is commendable. After all the engineers can fix anything, the crews could fly anything........My question to you is this..?
Do you think there is a comprehensive and robust system of ensuring airworthiness and "reasonable" safety in the RAF for aircraft?
If not then people have been flying in unsafe aircraft. Aircraft can only be demonstrated to be safe if the man has signed on the line saying so, no signature = not safe.
TD, Kam, Chappie and all the others. I think the coroner has vindicated you all. This saga is the latest in a long line of hemmoragings against the men and women who sign their lives onto the line......
Time it ends
Do you think there is a comprehensive and robust system of ensuring airworthiness and "reasonable" safety in the RAF for aircraft?
If not then people have been flying in unsafe aircraft. Aircraft can only be demonstrated to be safe if the man has signed on the line saying so, no signature = not safe.
TD, Kam, Chappie and all the others. I think the coroner has vindicated you all. This saga is the latest in a long line of hemmoragings against the men and women who sign their lives onto the line......
Time it ends
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Gas Fitter,
What the hell are you on about? This isn't Korea is it? This is 2008 and whatever you say about the coroner, these guys didn't need to die and the aircraft should not have crashed frankly.
We have had a whole bunch of experts on this thread giving us their expert opinion, but at the end of the day,someone has finally had the balls to stand up and say that the aircraft are NOW unairworthy and should be grounded. I for one applaud the guy for having the courage to say that.
Of course, we've now got the AirShips and the government 'experts' such as Ainsworth saying that the coroner was wrong, and that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Well clearly he doesn't know what he's talking about does he? He is speaking up against those in power, therefore he MUST be wrong! Yeh right.
As Blogger says, how much longer will the RAF have to put up with out-of-date and obsolete kit?
It's time for this so-called head of the RAF, Torpey, to be a true leader, stand up and say 'I'm sorry' and then hold his head in shame and resign. A leader? He couldn't lead a dog frankly. A total waste of space and oxygen IMHO.
Glenn, for Christs sake do the honourable thing, lead from the front and call it a day.
'tis a sad day for the RAF
What the hell are you on about? This isn't Korea is it? This is 2008 and whatever you say about the coroner, these guys didn't need to die and the aircraft should not have crashed frankly.
We have had a whole bunch of experts on this thread giving us their expert opinion, but at the end of the day,someone has finally had the balls to stand up and say that the aircraft are NOW unairworthy and should be grounded. I for one applaud the guy for having the courage to say that.
Of course, we've now got the AirShips and the government 'experts' such as Ainsworth saying that the coroner was wrong, and that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Well clearly he doesn't know what he's talking about does he? He is speaking up against those in power, therefore he MUST be wrong! Yeh right.
As Blogger says, how much longer will the RAF have to put up with out-of-date and obsolete kit?
It's time for this so-called head of the RAF, Torpey, to be a true leader, stand up and say 'I'm sorry' and then hold his head in shame and resign. A leader? He couldn't lead a dog frankly. A total waste of space and oxygen IMHO.
Glenn, for Christs sake do the honourable thing, lead from the front and call it a day.
'tis a sad day for the RAF
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Winco,
I generally agree with you - though I don't know the individuals you mention.
What has really got our forces in this position - and that means ALL our forces - is the 'Can Do' attitude has been taken for granted by polticians of all flavours and now we have crap aircraft, ships & vehicles.
The forces need a true ballsy person to stand up for them ! I'm not suggesting a military coup, just someone looking beyond their own pension.
DZ
I generally agree with you - though I don't know the individuals you mention.
What has really got our forces in this position - and that means ALL our forces - is the 'Can Do' attitude has been taken for granted by polticians of all flavours and now we have crap aircraft, ships & vehicles.
The forces need a true ballsy person to stand up for them ! I'm not suggesting a military coup, just someone looking beyond their own pension.
DZ