Why do some Squadrons have letter after their number?
I must confess to having made a point of ensuring using II(AC) and 12(B) on all paperwork when they rotated through the corner of the sandpit I called home for a large chunk of last year. In conversation I tended to use,"...Two (oxymoron) Squadron."
Roman numerals aren't just a Harrier Force thing. XV(R) Sqn is pretty much always wiritten as such, except by people who forget the (R). On a tangent, how many sqns are precious about how their number is pronounced? Six-foot are alway "Six One Seven", whereas Tremblers are "Treble One", and both get mildly vexxed if refered to otherwise, though I know not why. At least I have heard a plausible explanation for why 216 Sqn are pronounced "Two Sixteen" rather than "Two One Six" or some such; it was 16 Sqn RNAS beofre the merger with the RFC, and the 2 was added to distinguish from any former Pongo sqn.
Roman numerals aren't just a Harrier Force thing. XV(R) Sqn is pretty much always wiritten as such, except by people who forget the (R). On a tangent, how many sqns are precious about how their number is pronounced? Six-foot are alway "Six One Seven", whereas Tremblers are "Treble One", and both get mildly vexxed if refered to otherwise, though I know not why. At least I have heard a plausible explanation for why 216 Sqn are pronounced "Two Sixteen" rather than "Two One Six" or some such; it was 16 Sqn RNAS beofre the merger with the RFC, and the 2 was added to distinguish from any former Pongo sqn.
(a bear of little brain)
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I did ask about the naming when young relative joined II (AC) Squadron and was told that it was II "because it's old" and that the "AC" stood for "Army Co-operation".
I now await confirmation of an oxymoron (although I have also been told they have a goodly collection of redundant armoured vehicles around the squadron headquarters).
(Edited to add. TMJ. Apologies for repeated use of oxymoron. I hadn't read you post).
I now await confirmation of an oxymoron (although I have also been told they have a goodly collection of redundant armoured vehicles around the squadron headquarters).
(Edited to add. TMJ. Apologies for repeated use of oxymoron. I hadn't read you post).
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The trouble with the Roman numerals is that they can be misread, particularly in the case of II Squadron. It is reasonable for the layman to ask is that two or eleven? CXX is a mystery to most of us who haven't had the benefit of a classical education!
As for squadron 'crests', I referred to them as such in a letter once. I received the mother-and-father of a bo***king from a senior. I have always referred to them as BADGES!!!
As for squadron 'crests', I referred to them as such in a letter once. I received the mother-and-father of a bo***king from a senior. I have always referred to them as BADGES!!!
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Originally Posted by LOTA
The trouble with the Roman numerals is that they can be misread, particularly in the case of II Squadron. It is reasonable for the layman to ask is that two or eleven? CXX is a mystery to most of us who haven't had the benefit of a classical education!
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Gainsey
You are not mistaken. Try the "Tatty Ton" - No 100(Torpedo Bomber) Squadron. Skull & Cross Bones emblem from WW1 (reputedly from a brothel sign), Sqn Motto in Malay. No roman numerals though. Wonderful times, though I never did see a torpedo!
Regards
Ginseng
Regards
Ginseng
The trouble with the Roman numerals is that they can be misread, particularly in the case of II Squadron.
The operator denied that such a squadron existed (it was still flying the F3 at the time). To cut a long story short, caller ended up asking if the directory happened to have a 'V[ee] Squadron' (which, funny old thing, it did)...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
My first squadron had just lost B-Flt when we got a new CO under centralised servicing. He wanted to know why we were 12 (B) Sqn with an OC A Flt when the sqn had only one flight. He was put right.
One time when sqn names were ordered to be dropped was during UDI. The edict to 44 Sqn came down from on high to drop their name. Henceforth they were known to everyone as 44 (Rhodesia) Sqn
My next was the Madras Presidency Sqn. We put an aircraft through there in 1973 but it was so 'sensitive' that the FO forbade any publicity.
Then is was two oh one. Finally VIII. I think at one point they were even 8(AEW).
One time when sqn names were ordered to be dropped was during UDI. The edict to 44 Sqn came down from on high to drop their name. Henceforth they were known to everyone as 44 (Rhodesia) Sqn
My next was the Madras Presidency Sqn. We put an aircraft through there in 1973 but it was so 'sensitive' that the FO forbade any publicity.
Then is was two oh one. Finally VIII. I think at one point they were even 8(AEW).
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At last a real Nephews thread in true Uncle Roger style and worthy of some serious PPrunery.
I think we've comprehensively shown where the letters come from (interesting that few have clung to the 'B' annotation but rather more to the 'F' and 'AC') and of course this was common practise when Beagle were a lad between the wars. The best excuse I've seen for sticking to a particular format is whatever was on the Squadron Crest as drawn by Chester Herald and approved by the Monarch of the day - If CXI(Fighter) was good enough for the King who am I to change it?
I also note fashions have changed - all the WWII old boys at my reunions spoke of two-nine while all from the jet age on talk of twenty-nine.
I think we've comprehensively shown where the letters come from (interesting that few have clung to the 'B' annotation but rather more to the 'F' and 'AC') and of course this was common practise when Beagle were a lad between the wars. The best excuse I've seen for sticking to a particular format is whatever was on the Squadron Crest as drawn by Chester Herald and approved by the Monarch of the day - If CXI(Fighter) was good enough for the King who am I to change it?
I also note fashions have changed - all the WWII old boys at my reunions spoke of two-nine while all from the jet age on talk of twenty-nine.
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The blokes using the Typhie at Conners are on 3 (F) Sqn. The (F) denotes 'fighter' of course as befits the history of this famous numberplate. It is shown as Fighter on their badge too (it's not a crest it's a badge).
And yet. . . when I was on 3 in Germany in the 60s the badge didn't show the word 'Fighter', just said 'Squadron' in the top arc. Mind you, we had Canberra B(I)8s in those days. The (F) was re-adopted when they got Harriers (1972) at Laarbruch, and appeared on the badge again.
Now, in the squadron's Assoc, the Canberra blokes are accepted as 'heavy fighters' because we used a gunpack.
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And yet. . . when I was on 3 in Germany in the 60s the badge didn't show the word 'Fighter', just said 'Squadron' in the top arc. Mind you, we had Canberra B(I)8s in those days. The (F) was re-adopted when they got Harriers (1972) at Laarbruch, and appeared on the badge again.
Now, in the squadron's Assoc, the Canberra blokes are accepted as 'heavy fighters' because we used a gunpack.
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44 - Zimbabwe Air Legion!
A nickname I coined in 1978 - some blokes even had t-shirts made in the USA with the slogan suitably emblazoned!
Impiger - squadron 'badge', never squadron 'crest'! Tsk, tsk!!
A nickname I coined in 1978 - some blokes even had t-shirts made in the USA with the slogan suitably emblazoned!
Impiger - squadron 'badge', never squadron 'crest'! Tsk, tsk!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the RAF Club is a display of many squadron crests. Definitions of crest on the Web: (heraldry) in medieval times, an emblem used to decorate a helmet.
Since the badge is created by the college of heralds I submit that the framed and signed artwork is a crest.
When worn on a grow bag it is a badge: Definitions of badge on the Web:
an emblem (a small piece of plastic or cloth or metal) that signifies your status (rank or membership or affiliation etc.); "they checked everyone's badge before letting them in"
any feature that is regarded as a sign of status (a particular power or quality or rank); "wearing a tie was regarded as a badge of respectability"
The RAF Marham web site, the de facto online source for unit crests etc is:
RAF SQUADRON CRESTS, RAF STATION CRESTS, RAF UNIT CRESTS AND BADGES
RAF MARHAM CRESTS GALLERY INDEX
So there
Since the badge is created by the college of heralds I submit that the framed and signed artwork is a crest.
When worn on a grow bag it is a badge: Definitions of badge on the Web:
an emblem (a small piece of plastic or cloth or metal) that signifies your status (rank or membership or affiliation etc.); "they checked everyone's badge before letting them in"
any feature that is regarded as a sign of status (a particular power or quality or rank); "wearing a tie was regarded as a badge of respectability"
The RAF Marham web site, the de facto online source for unit crests etc is:
RAF SQUADRON CRESTS, RAF STATION CRESTS, RAF UNIT CRESTS AND BADGES
RAF MARHAM CRESTS GALLERY INDEX
So there
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Despite not being from the colony, my grandfather flew Lancs on 44(Rhodesia) Sqn and has always been very proud of the Rhodesia name. He corrected me once when I referred to it just as 44 Sqn.
IIRC the best collection of RAF Badges is on the floor of St Clements Danes, certainly makes you realise how small the RAF has gotten in recent years.
Points for discussion:
Should Harrier/Jag/GR4 Sqns use (B) or is this reserved for 'proper' bombers like Vulcans?
In these days of CAS should they be (AC) or would this be better for SH Sqns?
Does it matter about the letters for having traditions?
IIRC the best collection of RAF Badges is on the floor of St Clements Danes, certainly makes you realise how small the RAF has gotten in recent years.
Points for discussion:
Should Harrier/Jag/GR4 Sqns use (B) or is this reserved for 'proper' bombers like Vulcans?
In these days of CAS should they be (AC) or would this be better for SH Sqns?
Does it matter about the letters for having traditions?
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Originally Posted by Gainesy
Another suffix was TB for "Torpedo-Bomber" though I can't think of a particular sqn off hand, maybe I'm getting mixed up with the US Maureens.
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I was told by a crusty old Pathfinder Master Pilot that the drawing/symbol in the middle of the badge is the crest. Together with the crown and writing and scroll etc it makes up the badge.
Ginseng, thank you for the confirmation.
Ginseng, thank you for the confirmation.
Sorry, but both Pontius Navigator and Gainsey's crusty old Pathfinder Master Pilot are indeed wrong.
From the College-of-Arms:
Q. What is a crest?
A. It is a popular misconception that the word 'crest' describes a whole coat of arms or any heraldic device. It does not. A crest is a specific part of a full achievement of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.
If you look at the RAF College Coat of Arms here: http://www.cranwell.raf.mod.uk/Organ...e/COATARMS.htm, the heraldic terms are well explained.
From the College-of-Arms:
Q. What is a crest?
A. It is a popular misconception that the word 'crest' describes a whole coat of arms or any heraldic device. It does not. A crest is a specific part of a full achievement of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.
If you look at the RAF College Coat of Arms here: http://www.cranwell.raf.mod.uk/Organ...e/COATARMS.htm, the heraldic terms are well explained.
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Crest...Badge... BEags I was trying to communicate with the masses not the erudite few. Didn't mean to start a whole new debate. Still think that whatever the Monarch signed off should be accepted with honour regardless of a squadron's current role.
