RAF SAR to deploy to Afghanistan
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Crabette and Crab will you two just hug? RAF SAR would benefit massively if they were to be able to deploy and provide JPR coverage in some of the dusty places we work now. It was mooted to send the SARF to Bosnia in the late 90s, but nothing came of it. It has been much talked about and probably the pipe and slippers image has done the SARF no good, but then again apparently some people like to have a predictable life flying some demanding missions without having to go away from their families regularly.
Teeters - CSAR does have an SF flavour, but it isn't really an SF mission, but SF are part of the Personnel Recovery mission spectrum.
Teeters - CSAR does have an SF flavour, but it isn't really an SF mission, but SF are part of the Personnel Recovery mission spectrum.
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NRDK
What really, really, pi))es me off, is the lack of knowledge when posting a bite/banter/bite/thingy/stuff/whatever/pratt type stuff. You so clearly do not have a clue about how the military operates, probably because you are a *** (fill in your "job", here) and spend all your time swanning about at car washes.
Failed at school/SAR/Junglie/ASW/ATC/scroat, did you?
Catch up.
What really, really, pi))es me off, is the lack of knowledge when posting a bite/banter/bite/thingy/stuff/whatever/pratt type stuff. You so clearly do not have a clue about how the military operates, probably because you are a *** (fill in your "job", here) and spend all your time swanning about at car washes.
Failed at school/SAR/Junglie/ASW/ATC/scroat, did you?
Catch up.
Southbound - the SeaKing is a very capable SAR helicopter (although a bit more top end would be nice) and we have Chinooks and Merlins for the bullet dodging SH stuff. What on earth would be the point of giving us an SH capable aircraft, increasing the numbers of SAR crews and then deploying us when you could just buy more chinooks or merlins. I know there are many who think SAR is a skiving rest tour but most of those don't have a clue about what is actually required in the job.
As it happens, the SARF has offered winchmen (trained to UK paramedic standards) to help out in various theatres but no-one was interested - it's not like we haven't tried.
As it happens, the SARF has offered winchmen (trained to UK paramedic standards) to help out in various theatres but no-one was interested - it's not like we haven't tried.
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RAF SAR to deploy to Afghanistan
Crab said:
As it happens, the SARF has offered winchmen (trained to UK paramedic standards) to help out in various theatres but no-one was interested - it's not like we haven't tried.
If I was a winchman I wouldn't be interested either, the Falklands was bad enough!
Forward 40, Winching out, Steady
As it happens, the SARF has offered winchmen (trained to UK paramedic standards) to help out in various theatres but no-one was interested - it's not like we haven't tried.
If I was a winchman I wouldn't be interested either, the Falklands was bad enough!
Forward 40, Winching out, Steady
Nice of Crab and company to offer the guys in the back of the bus....
Why does it sound like a union dispute over "my work"...."your work" here?
SAR is not CSAR and the Camo bunch can dodge bullets but the yellow canned SAR is above that?
Is it some objection to having to get rid of the "yellow" before going Camo?
Why does it sound like a union dispute over "my work"...."your work" here?
SAR is not CSAR and the Camo bunch can dodge bullets but the yellow canned SAR is above that?
Is it some objection to having to get rid of the "yellow" before going Camo?
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Originally Posted by PTC REMF
How long would it take to fit a modern defensive aids suite, armour, crew served weapons etc, on our bright yellow sea kings
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Spurlash2For a 2& a Half pinger doing a bit of SAR on 771/819 maybe, couldn't make the jump to the civilian world....you aren't too bitter and twisted.
You didn't leave the dark blue for the light blue did you?????
Gather that I am not the only person who thinks the military should really 'use or lose the Yellow cab'. Ok I'm not advocating scrapping it off hand, just suggesting they get used to support the current stretched frontline forces outside the UK. Their integration and blending into a harmonised UK force will be the point where they finally learn that they are not the SAR gods doing what no others can
.
Leave them Yellow, unarmed, and mark them with Big Red Crosses on a white background....Geneva Convention makes them non-combatants right!
We are now affording the same rights to Terrorists...thus they should recipocate then I suppose.
Heck, let the SAR boys in Yellow do an EMS business for both sides....let them be completely neutral in the matter. First come...first served sort of thing.
We are now affording the same rights to Terrorists...thus they should recipocate then I suppose.
Heck, let the SAR boys in Yellow do an EMS business for both sides....let them be completely neutral in the matter. First come...first served sort of thing.
What a load of hoop!!
For those of you talking with no real knowledge of SAR (which sounds like a lot of you) the boys and girls in the overseas operational theatres are not the only one's working their arses off. Exactly how many spare Sea Kings do you think there are available to deploy? How many spare crews do you think there are? If you actually know how many spare airframes, crews and engineers there are in UK Mil SAR you would no there is almost no spare capacity.
The SAR Force specifically posts personnel to the SH force to enhance their operations with SAR knowledge and those crews are much better placed to conduct those sorts of operations. It is not a case of us thinking we are better than them and letting them get shot at, in fact (it pains me to say it) the simple fact is that they are better at that sort of mission than we are.
In any case, UK Military SAR is part of a system legally obliged by international law to provide cover for the UK. We can't just up sticks and leave even if we wanted to. For those doubters amongst you, we are also struggling with manpower due to the fact that a significant number of our personnel are in, pretty much, all the hot spots that rotary assets are deployed worldwide. Battle dodgers we are no more (if ever we were). Our aircraft may not be deployed but our personnel certainly are.
For those of you talking with no real knowledge of SAR (which sounds like a lot of you) the boys and girls in the overseas operational theatres are not the only one's working their arses off. Exactly how many spare Sea Kings do you think there are available to deploy? How many spare crews do you think there are? If you actually know how many spare airframes, crews and engineers there are in UK Mil SAR you would no there is almost no spare capacity.
The SAR Force specifically posts personnel to the SH force to enhance their operations with SAR knowledge and those crews are much better placed to conduct those sorts of operations. It is not a case of us thinking we are better than them and letting them get shot at, in fact (it pains me to say it) the simple fact is that they are better at that sort of mission than we are.
In any case, UK Military SAR is part of a system legally obliged by international law to provide cover for the UK. We can't just up sticks and leave even if we wanted to. For those doubters amongst you, we are also struggling with manpower due to the fact that a significant number of our personnel are in, pretty much, all the hot spots that rotary assets are deployed worldwide. Battle dodgers we are no more (if ever we were). Our aircraft may not be deployed but our personnel certainly are.
Last edited by SAR Bloke; 15th Jul 2006 at 22:27.
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NRDK
The yellow cabs, along with 771, 819 and Bristows SAR, support the UK.
There is all sorts sorts of s*** that happens in the UK that UK SAR assets deal with. You cannot deploy UK SAR to do a warfighting role. Just how would a SAR SK "support the current stretched frontline forces outside the UK."?
Your suggested airframes are struggling in their current role sandy side.
The JPR tasking for UK SAR in a deployed location, which is your suggestion, (you do know what JPR is, do you?) is a quantum leap and is not easily achieved without a substantial refit of an airframe with DAS, and armament, and space for a group of blokes with guns.
Denigrating UK SAR, of any colour, does you no favours.
Oh, and by the way, be careful swimming off Dollar Cove during the summer, you may well need a UK SAR helicopter.
SARBLOKE, I'm with you
The yellow cabs, along with 771, 819 and Bristows SAR, support the UK.
There is all sorts sorts of s*** that happens in the UK that UK SAR assets deal with. You cannot deploy UK SAR to do a warfighting role. Just how would a SAR SK "support the current stretched frontline forces outside the UK."?
Your suggested airframes are struggling in their current role sandy side.
The JPR tasking for UK SAR in a deployed location, which is your suggestion, (you do know what JPR is, do you?) is a quantum leap and is not easily achieved without a substantial refit of an airframe with DAS, and armament, and space for a group of blokes with guns.
Denigrating UK SAR, of any colour, does you no favours.
Oh, and by the way, be careful swimming off Dollar Cove during the summer, you may well need a UK SAR helicopter.
SARBLOKE, I'm with you
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Originally Posted by SAR Bloke
Battle dodgers we are no more (if ever we were). Our aircraft may not be deployed but our personnel certainly are.
I'm feeling slightly quilty now as the first person to bite at NRDK's post. My concern was based on the suggestion of deploying the Seaking to AF or Iraq, where is believe it would operate poorly (especially hot & high in AF). This was never aimed as a slur on the SAR crews, far from it, you provide a first class job & fly in weather conditions far outside my comfort zone.
In the FJ community, we all have mates who have been pulled out of the oggin or plucked from the side of a hill after opting for the Martin Baker experience & without you, many of them would be no longer with us so thank you.
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The shiny new merlin (50 hours on the clock) that the danish had on static at RIAT yesterday looks the biz for CSAR. Flir SAFIRE II optics, laser wire detector (plus cutters) + ground avoidance, all the correct bulges and patched for ASE/DAS (for their troop carrying role), wireless intercomm for winch ops, a loudspeaker system, SAT comms and mobile phone antenna etc etc. Get rid of the lime green patches and it is on the right track. Not sure if the radar on the nose has full terrain following capability or just sea modes. Anyone know?
The power of the search engine.
The Danish EH101s are fitted with the Telephonics RDR-1600 search and weather avoidance radar, which includes five operation modes. With a 60-degree scan angle and 28-degree per second scan rate, the radar can detect beacons and surface targets, perform ground mapping, observe weather and give weather alerts. For precision landings--say, on an offshore oil platform--the radar contains a narrow-pulse mode, allowing a minimum detection range of 450 feet (137 meters). The radar display is presented on any of the IDUs, where the FMS navigation waypoints can be overlaid.
The RDAF thermal imaging systems have a dual-control capability. The operator of the console in the starboard rear compartment can monitor various sensor displays, including one for the FLIR. However, the FLIR master switch is in the cockpit's center console, allowing the flight crew to take over the sensor's control if necessary or beneficial. "Often the pilots have a better peripheral view and can better steer the [FLIR] turret to the target. After directing the system [using a `coolie-hat'-shaped knob], they can hand over control to the operator in back," explains Van der Spuy, describing one purpose for the dual control. The Star SAFIRE II's range can vary, depending on conditions. However, under ideal conditions [relatively calm seas], it should help spot a person's warm body bobbing in cold water at about 8,200 feet (2,500 meters).
The power of the search engine.
The Danish EH101s are fitted with the Telephonics RDR-1600 search and weather avoidance radar, which includes five operation modes. With a 60-degree scan angle and 28-degree per second scan rate, the radar can detect beacons and surface targets, perform ground mapping, observe weather and give weather alerts. For precision landings--say, on an offshore oil platform--the radar contains a narrow-pulse mode, allowing a minimum detection range of 450 feet (137 meters). The radar display is presented on any of the IDUs, where the FMS navigation waypoints can be overlaid.
The RDAF thermal imaging systems have a dual-control capability. The operator of the console in the starboard rear compartment can monitor various sensor displays, including one for the FLIR. However, the FLIR master switch is in the cockpit's center console, allowing the flight crew to take over the sensor's control if necessary or beneficial. "Often the pilots have a better peripheral view and can better steer the [FLIR] turret to the target. After directing the system [using a `coolie-hat'-shaped knob], they can hand over control to the operator in back," explains Van der Spuy, describing one purpose for the dual control. The Star SAFIRE II's range can vary, depending on conditions. However, under ideal conditions [relatively calm seas], it should help spot a person's warm body bobbing in cold water at about 8,200 feet (2,500 meters).
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It's all well & good talking about shiney helicopters and FLIR/TFR etc, but unless you've got f
ing big guns sticking out of every door (Seaking, I think not) it doesn't really matter! 
ing big guns sticking out of every door (Seaking, I think not) it doesn't really matter!
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BM,
It is easy enough to strap a 50 cal onto the helo for a bit of close close self protection. The Merlin has plenty of payload for weaponry and medical. The real trick is to have the assets to cover the CSAR. It should never be a single aircraft that goes to the rescue.
It is easy enough to strap a 50 cal onto the helo for a bit of close close self protection. The Merlin has plenty of payload for weaponry and medical. The real trick is to have the assets to cover the CSAR. It should never be a single aircraft that goes to the rescue.
Bit off topic I know, but has the RAF ever considered having personnel like the USAF Pararescue Jumpers? Less extreme perhaps but maybe a cross between Loadmaster and Rockape?
Akula - you have obviously dealt with the Sea King IPT before, although 4 years might be a bit optimistic!
WEBF - the Canadians use SARtechs who are parachute/diving/mountaineering trained but, given the terrain in the UK, such disciplines are not really required. A SAR helicopter is simply a delivery system for a paramedic trained winchman and a recovery system for same plus casualty. Even the RN have stopped using rescue divers because so few jobs require them. Having said that, the US CG are still using rescue swimmers but I don't see the point of putting a guy in the water to swim to the boat when you can just winch him to it.
Jeep - we can't afford any new or shiny things since the MoD blew all the rotary budget (and then some) on your Apaches. We are broke which is why the next generation of SAR helos will have to be financed by the private sector, regardless of who flys them. Anyway I don't think anyone will be rushing to buy Merlin until the cause of the Canadian crash is determined.
Sasless, it is not that long since our RAF SAR SKs were grey and had a theoretical tactical role (mostly for FI) and the Mk3As were procured with a similar role in mind but the harsh fact is that the fleet isn't big enough to provide UKSAR and the FI and have anything left to do anything else with. You can either have a specialised SAR machine to rescue people in all weathers or you can have a specialised SH machine to recover downed personnel in a war zone - the kit and the training required is different and to have both on one aircraft is costly and inefficient.
NRDK why don't you mention using or losing the grey and orange cabs of RNSAR, picking on the yellow ones seems a little one sided - if one part of MilSAR goes it will all go IMHO so think carefully if you are prepared to hand over 771 and gannet to MCA.
Crabette - it's still 24/7 despite the unserviceabilities the stats show an overall 97% availability for 1st standby.
WEBF - the Canadians use SARtechs who are parachute/diving/mountaineering trained but, given the terrain in the UK, such disciplines are not really required. A SAR helicopter is simply a delivery system for a paramedic trained winchman and a recovery system for same plus casualty. Even the RN have stopped using rescue divers because so few jobs require them. Having said that, the US CG are still using rescue swimmers but I don't see the point of putting a guy in the water to swim to the boat when you can just winch him to it.
Jeep - we can't afford any new or shiny things since the MoD blew all the rotary budget (and then some) on your Apaches. We are broke which is why the next generation of SAR helos will have to be financed by the private sector, regardless of who flys them. Anyway I don't think anyone will be rushing to buy Merlin until the cause of the Canadian crash is determined.
Sasless, it is not that long since our RAF SAR SKs were grey and had a theoretical tactical role (mostly for FI) and the Mk3As were procured with a similar role in mind but the harsh fact is that the fleet isn't big enough to provide UKSAR and the FI and have anything left to do anything else with. You can either have a specialised SAR machine to rescue people in all weathers or you can have a specialised SH machine to recover downed personnel in a war zone - the kit and the training required is different and to have both on one aircraft is costly and inefficient.
NRDK why don't you mention using or losing the grey and orange cabs of RNSAR, picking on the yellow ones seems a little one sided - if one part of MilSAR goes it will all go IMHO so think carefully if you are prepared to hand over 771 and gannet to MCA.
Crabette - it's still 24/7 despite the unserviceabilities the stats show an overall 97% availability for 1st standby.
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Originally Posted by WE Branch Fanatic
Bit off topic I know, but has the RAF ever considered having personnel like the USAF Pararescue Jumpers? Less extreme perhaps but maybe a cross between Loadmaster and Rockape?