NCA PAS/AFPS 05
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Now, there's the glitch where the new scheme works in your favour.
If you retire at 54 yrs and 11 months, you get a 75% pension for 10 yrs, but you also get 2 large, tax free lump sums (1 immediately, 1 at 65), then 100% pension at 65. Take into account tax etc, balance it against living until your 65th birthday, and you should be quite considerably better off!!
Try putting the figures into the pensions calculator, it's very interesting.
If you retire at 54 yrs and 11 months, you get a 75% pension for 10 yrs, but you also get 2 large, tax free lump sums (1 immediately, 1 at 65), then 100% pension at 65. Take into account tax etc, balance it against living until your 65th birthday, and you should be quite considerably better off!!
Try putting the figures into the pensions calculator, it's very interesting.
"Why would anyone retire before 55 having comitted to PAS and the new pension scheme, not sure I can see where this is going...."
Mate - you no longer have such an option - unless you want to be severely penalised financially.
I didn't think I'd ever retire before NRD. But by late 2002, I finally couldn't stand the way the RAF was going, so pulled the B&Y some while later after calculating the optimum date for pension and leave accumulation purposes.
At least that was an option I still had. You won't have that, I'm afraid, under PAS....
Mate - you no longer have such an option - unless you want to be severely penalised financially.
I didn't think I'd ever retire before NRD. But by late 2002, I finally couldn't stand the way the RAF was going, so pulled the B&Y some while later after calculating the optimum date for pension and leave accumulation purposes.
At least that was an option I still had. You won't have that, I'm afraid, under PAS....
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Originally Posted by Always_broken_in_wilts
Why would anyone retire before 55 having comitted to PAS and the new pension scheme, not sure I can see where this is going
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Perhaps that's why JPA is meant to be so good at tracking aircrew medical status! I can't see that anyone should have any worries on that score then!!
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Answer: If you're PAS and loose your aircrew medical category, you revert to CS pay status - or you can leave. If you stay for more than a year after loosing your aircrew status, then your pension will be based on your new, lower salary - therefore, you'll take a big hit to your pension!
Am I any worse off now than I would have been if I had stayed on the old pension scheme in this scenario?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Am I any worse off now than I would have been if I had stayed on the old pension scheme in this scenario?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Ginger Beer
In response to your original question about being able to go onto the PAS at your EDP date instead of your IPP date, which in your case I presume is eairler, you may want to point Binnsworth to the new JSP 754 which says:
General
05.0704. The PAS is compatible with the principles of Pay 2000. PAS NCA do not receive Specialist Pay (Flying) (SP(F)) as their basic rates of pay are enhanced to recognise their aircrew skills and employment in flying and flying related appointments. Those NCA not on the PAS will continue to receive basic pay and SP(F) appropriate to their rank and specialism.
Eligibility
05.0705. The following NCA are eligible to be considered for entry to the
PAS:
c. Royal Air Force. Individuals at or beyond their IPP/EDP
IPP – after 16 years’ reckonable service for officers and 22 years’ reckonable service for ORs.
EDP – available to officers’ and ORs on reaching age 40 and completion of at least 18 years reckonable service.
I havent had much chance to read the rest yet but it seems they may have done you a favour with the above rule. You can find the JSP at http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil....74/0/Chap5Sec7 on the intranet.
It takes a while to load but eveyone should have a look as it looks as if we have had a whole new TOS imposed upon us once again, on the sly.F
g w s.
You aint seen me right.
In response to your original question about being able to go onto the PAS at your EDP date instead of your IPP date, which in your case I presume is eairler, you may want to point Binnsworth to the new JSP 754 which says:
General
05.0704. The PAS is compatible with the principles of Pay 2000. PAS NCA do not receive Specialist Pay (Flying) (SP(F)) as their basic rates of pay are enhanced to recognise their aircrew skills and employment in flying and flying related appointments. Those NCA not on the PAS will continue to receive basic pay and SP(F) appropriate to their rank and specialism.
Eligibility
05.0705. The following NCA are eligible to be considered for entry to the
PAS:
c. Royal Air Force. Individuals at or beyond their IPP/EDP
IPP – after 16 years’ reckonable service for officers and 22 years’ reckonable service for ORs.
EDP – available to officers’ and ORs on reaching age 40 and completion of at least 18 years reckonable service.
I havent had much chance to read the rest yet but it seems they may have done you a favour with the above rule. You can find the JSP at http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil....74/0/Chap5Sec7 on the intranet.
It takes a while to load but eveyone should have a look as it looks as if we have had a whole new TOS imposed upon us once again, on the sly.F
g w s.You aint seen me right.
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Ginger Beer,
your letter was in the RAF News dated 12 May 2006 in 'Have Your Say' on Page 16. For those who do not keep Pravda to refer back to. I enclose the full letter and reply, including 'the only one m in Non-Commissioned' by Sqn Ldr X
‘A fundamental inequality’
EQUAL opportunity is a well used phrase within the RAF. It is pivotal to our ethos and quite rightly so.
With this in mind I would like to bring to your attention an inequality within our pay and conditions between officer aircrew and non-commissioned aircrew - or NCA.
An officer who is paid in accordance with the Professional Aviator Spine (PAS), has the advantage of being able to achieve a certain incremental pay level regardless of them being promoted; i.e. given the requisite number of years on the pay spine, if a flight lieutenant pilot joins the PAS, they will achieve the highest incremental level even if they do not get promoted to squadron leader and beyond. Their pay is decoupled from rank in accordance with AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1810, paragraph 5.
NCA on the PAS are only able to achieve certain incremental pay levels which are based purely on their rank.
This contradicts AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1811, paragraph 5, which details the PAS with regards to non-commissioned aircrew.
Paragraph 5 states quite clearly, as it does with our commissioned brethren, that: "the PAS has only one pay range, where rank and pay have been decoupled".
I, therefore, do not understand why non-commissioned aircrew are only able to achieve the higher incremental pay levels of the NCA PAS if they are subsequently promoted?
How can the AP state that "rank and pay have been decoupled" if you have to get promoted to a higher rank to achieve higher pay?
Perhaps I am a cynic and expect the answer will be removal of that sentence from the Air Publication; however, there would still remain a fundamental inequality between the two pay spines.
Name and address withheld on request.
Official reply - The Professional Aviator Pay Spine (PAS) was introduced on April 1, 2003 for commissioned aircrew. The principle underpinning the introduction of the PAS was that pay and rank are decoupled and personnel will rise by an Increment each year regardless of rank.
There are however, bars to progression for commissioned aircrew based on their sub-specialisation.
On April 1, 2004, following the recommendations of the Airmen Aircrew Sustainability Study, non-comissioned aircrew were allowed to access the PAS although the bar associated with progression was based on rank rather than sub-specialisation.
The rank-associated bars were imposed to reflect the different terms of service between non-comissioned aircrew and commissioned aircrew.
Non-comissioned aircrew are currently selected for the PAS at the 22-year point whereby the vast majority are likely to be either flight sergeant or master aircrew rank and therefore near or at the top of the non-commissioned rank structure.
Commissioned aircrew currently enter the PAS at their 38/18 point at either flight lieutenant or, in some cases, squadron leader rank.
To provide them with an incentive, to serve to age 55, while still, in most cases, a junior officer, pay and rank on the PAS were decoupled.
Equally, whereas non-comissioned aircrew can attain the top of the non-commissioned rank structure while remaining on the PAS and attract the pension benefits associated with this, commissioned aircrew must leave the PAS on promotion to wing commander.
The first sentence of AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1811, paragraph 5 refers specifically to the PAS as a whole - the remainder of the paragraph clarifies the rules for non-comissioned aircrew serving on the PAS.
Sqn Ldr Name withheld by Circle Kay for posting on PPRUNE, S02 additional pay and pensions policy (RAF).
[/INDENT]
your letter was in the RAF News dated 12 May 2006 in 'Have Your Say' on Page 16. For those who do not keep Pravda to refer back to. I enclose the full letter and reply, including 'the only one m in Non-Commissioned' by Sqn Ldr X
‘A fundamental inequality’
EQUAL opportunity is a well used phrase within the RAF. It is pivotal to our ethos and quite rightly so.
With this in mind I would like to bring to your attention an inequality within our pay and conditions between officer aircrew and non-commissioned aircrew - or NCA.
An officer who is paid in accordance with the Professional Aviator Spine (PAS), has the advantage of being able to achieve a certain incremental pay level regardless of them being promoted; i.e. given the requisite number of years on the pay spine, if a flight lieutenant pilot joins the PAS, they will achieve the highest incremental level even if they do not get promoted to squadron leader and beyond. Their pay is decoupled from rank in accordance with AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1810, paragraph 5.
NCA on the PAS are only able to achieve certain incremental pay levels which are based purely on their rank.
This contradicts AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1811, paragraph 5, which details the PAS with regards to non-commissioned aircrew.
Paragraph 5 states quite clearly, as it does with our commissioned brethren, that: "the PAS has only one pay range, where rank and pay have been decoupled".
I, therefore, do not understand why non-commissioned aircrew are only able to achieve the higher incremental pay levels of the NCA PAS if they are subsequently promoted?
How can the AP state that "rank and pay have been decoupled" if you have to get promoted to a higher rank to achieve higher pay?
Perhaps I am a cynic and expect the answer will be removal of that sentence from the Air Publication; however, there would still remain a fundamental inequality between the two pay spines.
Name and address withheld on request.
Official reply - The Professional Aviator Pay Spine (PAS) was introduced on April 1, 2003 for commissioned aircrew. The principle underpinning the introduction of the PAS was that pay and rank are decoupled and personnel will rise by an Increment each year regardless of rank.
There are however, bars to progression for commissioned aircrew based on their sub-specialisation.
On April 1, 2004, following the recommendations of the Airmen Aircrew Sustainability Study, non-comissioned aircrew were allowed to access the PAS although the bar associated with progression was based on rank rather than sub-specialisation.
The rank-associated bars were imposed to reflect the different terms of service between non-comissioned aircrew and commissioned aircrew.
Non-comissioned aircrew are currently selected for the PAS at the 22-year point whereby the vast majority are likely to be either flight sergeant or master aircrew rank and therefore near or at the top of the non-commissioned rank structure.
Commissioned aircrew currently enter the PAS at their 38/18 point at either flight lieutenant or, in some cases, squadron leader rank.
To provide them with an incentive, to serve to age 55, while still, in most cases, a junior officer, pay and rank on the PAS were decoupled.
Equally, whereas non-comissioned aircrew can attain the top of the non-commissioned rank structure while remaining on the PAS and attract the pension benefits associated with this, commissioned aircrew must leave the PAS on promotion to wing commander.
The first sentence of AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1811, paragraph 5 refers specifically to the PAS as a whole - the remainder of the paragraph clarifies the rules for non-comissioned aircrew serving on the PAS.
Sqn Ldr Name withheld by Circle Kay for posting on PPRUNE, S02 additional pay and pensions policy (RAF).
[/INDENT]
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Originally Posted by Always_broken_in_wilts
Answer: If you're PAS and loose your aircrew medical category, you revert to CS pay status - or you can leave. If you stay for more than a year after loosing your aircrew status, then your pension will be based on your new, lower salary - therefore, you'll take a big hit to your pension!
Am I any worse off now than I would have been if I had stayed on the old pension scheme in this scenario?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Am I any worse off now than I would have been if I had stayed on the old pension scheme in this scenario?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Note to self to read pamphlets in drawer again...and again ... .
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Circle,
Vous est le garcon,
The Sqn Ldr did a good job of stating the obvious and all those facts already known however, he didn't answer the feckin question.
The only question that I posed was: How can the AP state that "rank and pay have been decoupled" if you have to get promoted to a higher rank to achieve higher pay? (And this was within the NCA leaflet of the AP.)
In his answer he states the reasoning behind the policy but does not address the fact that it is not an equal opportunity. The various recent studies have lauded themselves on creating equal opportunities for all e.g. 18/40 etc, etc. The PAS was "sold" to us as equal for O's and NCA however, as I have shown, it is not.
It is a shame that the good Sqn Ldr didn't acknowledge the fact and staff a proper response, which should have included a re-think at least. If AVM Dusty Millar thought it was supposed to be the same for O's and NCA, you would think that the good Sqn Ldr would too?
Thanks again Circle, you have saved me 70p and as I'm not on PAS and am unlikely to stay around long enough now, I need all the dosh I have.
Cheers,
Ginge
Vous est le garcon,
The Sqn Ldr did a good job of stating the obvious and all those facts already known however, he didn't answer the feckin question.
The only question that I posed was: How can the AP state that "rank and pay have been decoupled" if you have to get promoted to a higher rank to achieve higher pay? (And this was within the NCA leaflet of the AP.)
In his answer he states the reasoning behind the policy but does not address the fact that it is not an equal opportunity. The various recent studies have lauded themselves on creating equal opportunities for all e.g. 18/40 etc, etc. The PAS was "sold" to us as equal for O's and NCA however, as I have shown, it is not.
It is a shame that the good Sqn Ldr didn't acknowledge the fact and staff a proper response, which should have included a re-think at least. If AVM Dusty Millar thought it was supposed to be the same for O's and NCA, you would think that the good Sqn Ldr would too?
Thanks again Circle, you have saved me 70p and as I'm not on PAS and am unlikely to stay around long enough now, I need all the dosh I have.
Cheers,
Ginge
