Hercules ESF - technical, tactical and service issues. (Title edited)
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LJ, don't go yet. Read the BoI it is published on MoD website archived now I should think. The video had different stuff spliced into it. Parts of the video are genuine other parts not. I have spoken to some of the families of the dead crew who attended BoI presentation. Phone up the chief investigator and ask him I will give you his name. He asked for foam to be fitted. I believe you are wrong.The ac was being flown at OLF heights think about it, how is it possible to do that sort of filming?
Hope this helps,
NG
Hope this helps,
NG
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Nice pics. But you need to read the BOI, not watch Al Jazeera.
One is a panel of crash investigation experts whose agenda is the prevention of further accidents & loss of life. The other is a propaganda tool for terrorists whose agenda is the destruction of Western civilization.
This part's worth repeating:
Virtually impossible to occur with ESF installed. It was not "blown off" by a weapon, the weapon ignited the fuel-air mixture & the wing popped off. Consequently, weapon type becomes somewhat irrelevant. The BOI comes to this same conclusion when it states this:
This part is worth repeating:
Furthermore, the authenticity of the beginning portion of the video containing the rocket firing scenes has not, to my knowledge, been verified. Regardless, the fitting of ESF would, in all probability, have prevented the explosion that blew the wing off regardless of weapon type.
And tell me again what your preferred "fleet wide fit of DIRCM" could have done against unguided rockets? I'll save you the effort - Answer = Square root of F**K ALL!
Besides, I thought you said your piece & weren't going to comment further...
One is a panel of crash investigation experts whose agenda is the prevention of further accidents & loss of life. The other is a propaganda tool for terrorists whose agenda is the destruction of Western civilization.
Originally Posted by BOI 2-1
The wreckage of XV179 was found in 2 separate and distinct locations. The main site contained all human remains and ac structure less the outboard section of the right-hand wing, which was found at a second site, 1.3 miles away. The separated section of wing had become detached due to an explosive over-pressure event occurring within the number 4 fuel tank.
Originally Posted by BOI
The separated section of wing had become detached due to an explosive over-pressure event occurring within the number 4 fuel tank.
Originally Posted by BOI 2-16/17
The large, relatively intact, but separate sections of the outboard wing prove that the wing blew apart due to an internal overpressure. ... The over-pressure that separated the wing must have occurred in the number 4 fuel tank, ... The cause of this explosive event has been considered in detail by the AAIB Senior Investigator, who concludes that it is most likely to have been caused by an ignition of the fuel/air mix in the space above the fuel, known as the ullage. ... Furthermore, the Board concluded that the lack of a supression system within the fuel tank, such as foam or inert gas, was a contributory factor.
Originally Posted by BOI
Furthermore, the Board concluded that the lack of a supression system within the fuel tank, such as foam or inert gas, was a contributory factor.
And tell me again what your preferred "fleet wide fit of DIRCM" could have done against unguided rockets? I'll save you the effort - Answer = Square root of F**K ALL!
Besides, I thought you said your piece & weren't going to comment further...
Last edited by HrkDrvr; 29th May 2006 at 19:24.
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LJ,
It disgusts me that you can be so stupid and callous as to include stills from an obviously spliced terrorist video to attempt to make your incorrect point. You seem to feel that you are worth listening to. You are not. Please leave this thread alone and please do not feel that it is necessary to make a final parting comment - it isn't.
Listen to Nige - he does actually do his research and is very well informed. A phrase such as "any other info that I have is not for me to disclose." may make you feel important, but cuts no ice with others.
I notice that you ignored my suggestion to get in touch. It still stands, so do it.
It disgusts me that you can be so stupid and callous as to include stills from an obviously spliced terrorist video to attempt to make your incorrect point. You seem to feel that you are worth listening to. You are not. Please leave this thread alone and please do not feel that it is necessary to make a final parting comment - it isn't.
Listen to Nige - he does actually do his research and is very well informed. A phrase such as "any other info that I have is not for me to disclose." may make you feel important, but cuts no ice with others.
I notice that you ignored my suggestion to get in touch. It still stands, so do it.
Last edited by Lara crofts pants; 29th May 2006 at 20:14.
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The fleet, job and people are very different from when you left Nige and whilst your efforts are appreciated, the biggest threat to our safety is you informing our internet savy enemies and the world about our frailties on am open forum such as this.
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Originally Posted by Malcom Glazier
The fleet, job and people are very different from when you left Nige and whilst your efforts are appreciated, the biggest threat to our safety is you informing our internet savy enemies and the world about our frailties on am open forum such as this.
If that fact wont stop 2 Gp sending the boys into countries like that with limited/no DAS, what will?
Also
I think the fact flight details being passed by unsecure systems such as SITA by Brize and Lyneham is more dangerous than this thread. Crews also give away a lot of details over RT and other coms. Digby caught a C130 co-pilot and an Air Traffic Controller giving away flight details of every flight due in/out of Basrah during that day on an unsecure frequency. Not a good way to spend your time before flying into the Sunni triangle.
Everyone, please keep it safe, you can all make a difference.
Last edited by FormerFlake; 30th May 2006 at 09:02.
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Not ex RAF, but currently fly with some ex-Hercules crew. I was surprised (and disgusted) when one explained to me the importance and absence of equipment on the ground in Iraq and other theatres of war and on the Hercules (ESF). It is a disgrace that Service personnel are further endangered through lack of funding and equipment.
Petition signed, good luck.
FB
Petition signed, good luck.
FB
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My first ever post on this site guys, so go easy on me!
Freedom to make comments is a vital right that we take for granted. Unfortunately, some people decide to jump in trying to look (and maybe feel) a little more educated on matters that others deal with every day of their lives. So for those who make comments that offend those who have a wealth of information than most will ever have...... I would do a bit of research.
I'm not sitting on the wall here guys, but I'm not prepared to make a full decision on whether it is fully feasible to implement the foam system fleet wide. Now I say this as I'm currently researching all angles of the upgrade. It's not easy, I have to be totally honest with myself and come to terms with the simple fact that every human life does have a price tag, and it makes me feel so sorry for those who've lost loved ones, it really does. I'm not just talking about initial cost of fitments, it's the big picture of any shortfalls involved in the future with maintenance and delay of assets because of this. Something that those above will be worried about I'm sure. Again, trying to play devils advocate, not nice. The other side of the coin is brimming with experts with vast experience saying this system could save a recurrence of that fateful day last year. Now what could be more compelling than that attitude? Maybe I am swaying on the latter side of the argument.
We all know morale is going through a low phase that occurs every now and again. It's obvious that this is getting a little frequent for some, and they are showing it by departing to what they see as a more relaxed lifestyle. The fun factor seems to be sliding below a level where by even those of the thickest hides are wondering where the future lies with the Armed Forces. Let's not make this cloud our judgment on these matters we're all professionals here, not cowboys on a 4week contract! (That last sentence is bound to get a quoted reply!
)
This thread will go on for some time, I hope with a little more tact and thought will be applied in future comments. It will add to the great respect this forum already holds in many eyes.
Many thanks for reading my first attempt on this site,
Permanent Sand.
Freedom to make comments is a vital right that we take for granted. Unfortunately, some people decide to jump in trying to look (and maybe feel) a little more educated on matters that others deal with every day of their lives. So for those who make comments that offend those who have a wealth of information than most will ever have...... I would do a bit of research.
I'm not sitting on the wall here guys, but I'm not prepared to make a full decision on whether it is fully feasible to implement the foam system fleet wide. Now I say this as I'm currently researching all angles of the upgrade. It's not easy, I have to be totally honest with myself and come to terms with the simple fact that every human life does have a price tag, and it makes me feel so sorry for those who've lost loved ones, it really does. I'm not just talking about initial cost of fitments, it's the big picture of any shortfalls involved in the future with maintenance and delay of assets because of this. Something that those above will be worried about I'm sure. Again, trying to play devils advocate, not nice. The other side of the coin is brimming with experts with vast experience saying this system could save a recurrence of that fateful day last year. Now what could be more compelling than that attitude? Maybe I am swaying on the latter side of the argument.
We all know morale is going through a low phase that occurs every now and again. It's obvious that this is getting a little frequent for some, and they are showing it by departing to what they see as a more relaxed lifestyle. The fun factor seems to be sliding below a level where by even those of the thickest hides are wondering where the future lies with the Armed Forces. Let's not make this cloud our judgment on these matters we're all professionals here, not cowboys on a 4week contract! (That last sentence is bound to get a quoted reply!
)This thread will go on for some time, I hope with a little more tact and thought will be applied in future comments. It will add to the great respect this forum already holds in many eyes.
Many thanks for reading my first attempt on this site,
Permanent Sand.
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Very eloquent, PS......... but what are you really trying to say?
a.'People post on these fora without knowing the full facts?'
b. 'You are not sure whether ESF is a good idea or not?'
c. 'It could cost a lot?'
d. 'Life is sh!te in the RAF at the moment but, hey, we are professionals, so let's not let that cloud our judgement?'
I think you'd find people who might agree with your conclusions......BUT
a. Is a given! BULL-FILTER set to 'MAX DEFLECTION' and read between the lines. Tact is an optional extra!
b. THE BOI SAID ESF WOULD BE AN IMPROVEMENT...do you know something they don't?
c. TOUGH! Whatever the cost of ESF, it is TINY comapred to the 'cost' of a very experienced crew, their valuable aircraft and the cost of their replacement. Its worth the relatively small cost and one or 2 probs that may (or may not) come with it.
d. That sort of 'subservient' attitude went out with the Charge of the Light Brigade and Nuremberg ('Vee ver only obeying zee orders' etc).
Might I suggest that you consider the following quote
'For evil to flourish, good men must do nothing'
Also remember that you only ever really answerable to 3 people
Your subordinates.
The 'person in the mirror'.
Your God!
Please think about that the next time anyone considers the 'price' of better aircraft self-protection.
However, as your post was sincere PS, I think you already know the truth and you sound as if your conscience is already acutely aware of the poor high-level management of the issues.
Join the club mate and welcome aboard!
a.'People post on these fora without knowing the full facts?'
b. 'You are not sure whether ESF is a good idea or not?'
c. 'It could cost a lot?'
d. 'Life is sh!te in the RAF at the moment but, hey, we are professionals, so let's not let that cloud our judgement?'
I think you'd find people who might agree with your conclusions......BUT
a. Is a given! BULL-FILTER set to 'MAX DEFLECTION' and read between the lines. Tact is an optional extra!
b. THE BOI SAID ESF WOULD BE AN IMPROVEMENT...do you know something they don't?
c. TOUGH! Whatever the cost of ESF, it is TINY comapred to the 'cost' of a very experienced crew, their valuable aircraft and the cost of their replacement. Its worth the relatively small cost and one or 2 probs that may (or may not) come with it.
d. That sort of 'subservient' attitude went out with the Charge of the Light Brigade and Nuremberg ('Vee ver only obeying zee orders' etc).
Might I suggest that you consider the following quote
'For evil to flourish, good men must do nothing'
Also remember that you only ever really answerable to 3 people
Your subordinates.
The 'person in the mirror'.
Your God!
Please think about that the next time anyone considers the 'price' of better aircraft self-protection.
However, as your post was sincere PS, I think you already know the truth and you sound as if your conscience is already acutely aware of the poor high-level management of the issues.
Join the club mate and welcome aboard!
Last edited by flipster; 2nd Jun 2006 at 10:05.
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There have been calls to combine this thread with Nige's Parliamentry Questions thread. However, I think that to do so would disrupt both threads and dilute their impact, as Nige's thread is specifically about the popular campaign, and this thread seems to have become focussed on technical, tactical and service issues. As posts would be placed in chronological order, and the threads are running contemperaneously, conversations within the threads would be broken up and the flow destroyed.
If no-one has any major objection, I will re-title this thread to clarify its purpose and distinguish it from the campaign thread. Those of you who wish to discuss the campaign should gravitate to Nige's thread; the technical and service issues can remain here.
Scroggs
If no-one has any major objection, I will re-title this thread to clarify its purpose and distinguish it from the campaign thread. Those of you who wish to discuss the campaign should gravitate to Nige's thread; the technical and service issues can remain here.
Scroggs
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Any news from XV206 BOI - not sure if 24 hr signal has been seen?
Small Arms, Wheel failure, FOD damage, Hyd fire or even land mine have been rumoured as poss causes - anything more concrete?
Keep the petition going - over 1600 now! It is an inspiring piece of work Chappie - well done!
Small Arms, Wheel failure, FOD damage, Hyd fire or even land mine have been rumoured as poss causes - anything more concrete?
Keep the petition going - over 1600 now! It is an inspiring piece of work Chappie - well done!
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I hope the EPA worked out as planned and the ensuing 'debrief' lasted long into the hours of the night!?
However, I did hear that the VIP pax was very grateful to the crew and wrote a fine letter of commendation! I guess it is nice to feel appreciated by someone?
Hope the stains come out, boys!
Flip
However, I did hear that the VIP pax was very grateful to the crew and wrote a fine letter of commendation! I guess it is nice to feel appreciated by someone?
Hope the stains come out, boys!
Flip
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Unguided Rockets
Leon,
You are certainly right about being hit by 6 unguided rockets - have you any OA to support this as a possibility? If so and the probability is, say, 1 in 10 to minus 9 then the RAF has probably achieved its duty of care compared with the standards for civilian aircraft. However as others have pointed out the BoI does not agree with you. Assuming only one hits what OA do you have to say that ESF offers no protection? Where does your OA say an unguided rocket would most likely hit - fuselage, tail, wings? It would be very good to have some science to back up your comments.
JB
You are certainly right about being hit by 6 unguided rockets - have you any OA to support this as a possibility? If so and the probability is, say, 1 in 10 to minus 9 then the RAF has probably achieved its duty of care compared with the standards for civilian aircraft. However as others have pointed out the BoI does not agree with you. Assuming only one hits what OA do you have to say that ESF offers no protection? Where does your OA say an unguided rocket would most likely hit - fuselage, tail, wings? It would be very good to have some science to back up your comments.
JB
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what i meant to say...
leon, what i meant to say is do you not think before you engage in your reply. those stills prove what exactly? they show the destruction of my brothers plane and the crew that were once the colleagues and friends of the good men and women of this page. very worthwhile, to bring back such painful memories for what? there is no point. what if they were shot at with 6 unguided rockets what if they were shot at with 10? the point is it was one that hit that is all it takes and then ten young lives were snuffed out. why, well, because of the incessant penny pinching that goes on and the constant misuse of funds. money for an admin system but no money for a potentially ac and most importantly life saving system. makes sense...not. so, while you still don't want to accept that ESF is a necessity that i will continue to fight on for, please feel free to answer this question. do you buy shreddies by the busload or do you have an amazing remedy to rid your shreddies of certain stubborn stains? if, so please share with your fellow ppruners!!! i suggest that instead of tanuting some very good people you make time to read the BoI then come back and make your points. your stunt, and that is all it is, is tantamount to a cruel little boy who pulls wings off flies then watches them suffer. now, go away, grow some balls and find it within you to be a man and make a point with facts to back them up. otherwise, please feel free to crawl back under the rock from where you clearly came.
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It looks like the roller coaster is continuing and I'm afraid to say, may not ride a horizontal line for some time to come.
First off, flipster, you may not have understood one of my points ref deciding factors on a green light for full fitment of the foam. Maybe it was my wording, but I was basically saying that the decisions would not be solely based on the initial outlay but the possible loss of assets in or out of theater. This problem, if even a slight one of occurring, sends shivers down the loose spines of those above. I thank you for your latter thoughts, as yes I am sincere, and yes I know the truth. PM me if you want more basic information on my comments, I'm a chilled guy and respect the knowledge you show.
With the relevant fleet about to be pushed to it's limit, any spanner in the works will also put a halt to careers of those pushing the work rate. This is what you guys should be more worried about. I get a scent of 'Let's get this done first guys then sort it later'.
Keep the faith,
PS.
First off, flipster, you may not have understood one of my points ref deciding factors on a green light for full fitment of the foam. Maybe it was my wording, but I was basically saying that the decisions would not be solely based on the initial outlay but the possible loss of assets in or out of theater. This problem, if even a slight one of occurring, sends shivers down the loose spines of those above. I thank you for your latter thoughts, as yes I am sincere, and yes I know the truth. PM me if you want more basic information on my comments, I'm a chilled guy and respect the knowledge you show.
With the relevant fleet about to be pushed to it's limit, any spanner in the works will also put a halt to careers of those pushing the work rate. This is what you guys should be more worried about. I get a scent of 'Let's get this done first guys then sort it later'.
Keep the faith,
PS.