Typhoons an Raptors
OLD RED DAMASK
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If anyone bothers blowing up the picture of the HUD that SASlesshas posted,you will clearly see that is NOT a Typhoon.
The 'repair' program I know about but can't say anything else on here,suffice to say there is a fix.
The 'repair' program I know about but can't say anything else on here,suffice to say there is a fix.
Laze,
Your predjuice is showing.....I posted it because it is an F-22 in the cross hairs.
Any aircraft can be shot down...the Spitfire was the "greatest" fighter of WWII according to some.....and what was it's loss rate?
The F-22 and Typhoon are top notch new generation aircraft. Each has its strong points and each has its weak points. Tactics and supporting combat systems will determine if each are as good as they are being made out to be.
When fighters tangle.....there are losses on both sides. The key is to sway the odds to one's own side by all means possible. Having enough airframes and fully capable pilots is one of the factors to that equation. If one does not have enough in numbers, or enough support, that can lead to a stunning defeat no matter how good the few are.
Your predjuice is showing.....I posted it because it is an F-22 in the cross hairs.
Any aircraft can be shot down...the Spitfire was the "greatest" fighter of WWII according to some.....and what was it's loss rate?
The F-22 and Typhoon are top notch new generation aircraft. Each has its strong points and each has its weak points. Tactics and supporting combat systems will determine if each are as good as they are being made out to be.
When fighters tangle.....there are losses on both sides. The key is to sway the odds to one's own side by all means possible. Having enough airframes and fully capable pilots is one of the factors to that equation. If one does not have enough in numbers, or enough support, that can lead to a stunning defeat no matter how good the few are.
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Originally Posted by SASless
Laze,
Your predjuice is showing.....I posted it because it is an F-22 in the cross hairs.
Any aircraft can be shot down...the Spitfire was the "greatest" fighter of WWII according to some.....and what was it's loss rate?
The F-22 and Typhoon are top notch new generation aircraft. Each has its strong points and each has its weak points. Tactics and supporting combat systems will determine if each are as good as they are being made out to be.
When fighters tangle.....there are losses on both sides. The key is to sway the odds to one's own side by all means possible. Having enough airframes and fully capable pilots is one of the factors to that equation. If one does not have enough in numbers, or enough support, that can lead to a stunning defeat no matter how good the few are.
Your predjuice is showing.....I posted it because it is an F-22 in the cross hairs.
Any aircraft can be shot down...the Spitfire was the "greatest" fighter of WWII according to some.....and what was it's loss rate?
The F-22 and Typhoon are top notch new generation aircraft. Each has its strong points and each has its weak points. Tactics and supporting combat systems will determine if each are as good as they are being made out to be.
When fighters tangle.....there are losses on both sides. The key is to sway the odds to one's own side by all means possible. Having enough airframes and fully capable pilots is one of the factors to that equation. If one does not have enough in numbers, or enough support, that can lead to a stunning defeat no matter how good the few are.
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I'll take that bet - more RAF Typhoons than USAF F-22's.
Surely most likely is GB dumping Typhoon T3 to free funds for JSF that are half the price, bring in zillions to brit companies and can ....wait for it... fly off scottish carriers.
Cheaper - check, more taxes - check, more scottish jobs - check. Where do I sign?
PS Tough to knock Singapore for chucking Typhoon when Typhoon "advanced A-G" is just a wishlist bullet on an unfunded program's transparency. Seemed to show equal distain for frenchie promises to fix their radar.
Surely most likely is GB dumping Typhoon T3 to free funds for JSF that are half the price, bring in zillions to brit companies and can ....wait for it... fly off scottish carriers.
Cheaper - check, more taxes - check, more scottish jobs - check. Where do I sign?
PS Tough to knock Singapore for chucking Typhoon when Typhoon "advanced A-G" is just a wishlist bullet on an unfunded program's transparency. Seemed to show equal distain for frenchie promises to fix their radar.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Cheaper - check, more taxes - check, more scottish jobs - check. Where do I sign?
With Typhoon we have a much higher direct production input including a production line. A lot of the wages/costs/money is internally recycled in the UK, as is our share of any profits.
Bottom line, we make a lot more bottom line profit per Typhoon for each one we buy, plus a guaranteed profit for every Typhoon or JSF anyone else buys.
Now, who, BAe or Treasury, makes most on an individual contract, and whether anybody is clever enough to work it out, is another question.....
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hey ORAC, I think you're on to something there..you're spouting the same garbage that every leftie has spouted for the last fifty years...buy British..put more money into british pockets be dammed what we get.
For once lets buy the capability that will do the business for the forces, not the crap that gets votes. The Typhoon may be a great fighter and fun for the guys that fly it, but its not the answer for the 2015 timeframe.
I've had a quick scan of the other threads you've commented on....been a busy boy haven't you. I really hope you don't work for the forces, or if you do you you apply the same vigour to your day job.
For once lets buy the capability that will do the business for the forces, not the crap that gets votes. The Typhoon may be a great fighter and fun for the guys that fly it, but its not the answer for the 2015 timeframe.
I've had a quick scan of the other threads you've commented on....been a busy boy haven't you. I really hope you don't work for the forces, or if you do you you apply the same vigour to your day job.
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Saw somethign odd written above - that WVR best pilot and luck are the deciding factors....for equal aircraft yes, for unequal aircraft no.
The luckiest Jaguar driver in the world will get raped every time by unlucky Fulcrum driver with HMS. The most competent F104 driver ever will really struggle against su-30MK driver new to the frontline.
It's never a case of 'Airborne Top Trumps' but you have to be realistic.
The luckiest Jaguar driver in the world will get raped every time by unlucky Fulcrum driver with HMS. The most competent F104 driver ever will really struggle against su-30MK driver new to the frontline.
It's never a case of 'Airborne Top Trumps' but you have to be realistic.
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Sorry ORAC.....just a quick appendix to my last post
7,396 posts since July 2000....bloody hell that 3.38 per day...including holidays and weekends, I really, really hope your not a member of our forces.
You really need to get out more.....Surf for porn its a better time well spent!
7,396 posts since July 2000....bloody hell that 3.38 per day...including holidays and weekends, I really, really hope your not a member of our forces.
You really need to get out more.....Surf for porn its a better time well spent!
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and again ORAC...
I just check....you posted 19 comments today alone...is that all you could fit in before stand easy! Honestly, if you're a pilot - give up your flying pay then we could maybe afford another Typhoon or two!
I just check....you posted 19 comments today alone...is that all you could fit in before stand easy! Honestly, if you're a pilot - give up your flying pay then we could maybe afford another Typhoon or two!
"Surely most likely is GB dumping Typhoon T3 to free funds for JSF that are half the price, bring in zillions to brit companies and can ....wait for it... fly off scottish carriers."
Half the price? It's legally impossible for the UK to pay less for its F-35s than the US customer. Though we're required to sign up to Production Sustainment at the end of 2006, committing to aircraft numbers and line positions, and to agree to financial penalties if we subsequently withdraw, we're expected to do so blind, with no price being set (with no input from us) until 2011.
That's on a programme with such a mismatch between the completion of development tasks and production investment that the GAO, McCain's committee and others want it dramatically slowed down.
That's for an aircraft that can't carry UK day one weapons, and won't carry any of our key weapons until the end of the next decade.
And that's for an aircraft on which, if we don't get ITAR waivers, we won't be able to sustain, support, upgrade or integrate our own kit.
And it's an admittedly excellent LO bomb truck, with a great radar and avionics, but with a modest t/w ratio, no supercruise, and an unimpressive combat persistance.
[irony]I can see that's so much more necessary than Typhoon Tranche 3.....[/irony]
Half the price? It's legally impossible for the UK to pay less for its F-35s than the US customer. Though we're required to sign up to Production Sustainment at the end of 2006, committing to aircraft numbers and line positions, and to agree to financial penalties if we subsequently withdraw, we're expected to do so blind, with no price being set (with no input from us) until 2011.
That's on a programme with such a mismatch between the completion of development tasks and production investment that the GAO, McCain's committee and others want it dramatically slowed down.
That's for an aircraft that can't carry UK day one weapons, and won't carry any of our key weapons until the end of the next decade.
And that's for an aircraft on which, if we don't get ITAR waivers, we won't be able to sustain, support, upgrade or integrate our own kit.
And it's an admittedly excellent LO bomb truck, with a great radar and avionics, but with a modest t/w ratio, no supercruise, and an unimpressive combat persistance.
[irony]I can see that's so much more necessary than Typhoon Tranche 3.....[/irony]
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hey dirty bugger,
No, not in the armed forcs any more, earning a lot more outside now thanks. But its nice to have an admirer who does so much research on me. Obviously hit a nerve. You don't work for LM do you?
ps, 0414 GMT, I get up early too.....
No, not in the armed forcs any more, earning a lot more outside now thanks. But its nice to have an admirer who does so much research on me. Obviously hit a nerve. You don't work for LM do you?
ps, 0414 GMT, I get up early too.....
Last edited by ORAC; 19th May 2006 at 05:16.
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FJWOEU? Me, ex SAOEU
Originally Posted by orca
Saw somethign odd written above - that WVR best pilot and luck are the deciding factors....for equal aircraft yes, for unequal aircraft no.
The luckiest Jaguar driver in the world will get raped every time by unlucky Fulcrum driver with HMS. The most competent F104 driver ever will really struggle against su-30MK driver new to the frontline.
It's never a case of 'Airborne Top Trumps' but you have to be realistic.
The luckiest Jaguar driver in the world will get raped every time by unlucky Fulcrum driver with HMS. The most competent F104 driver ever will really struggle against su-30MK driver new to the frontline.
It's never a case of 'Airborne Top Trumps' but you have to be realistic.
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Orac, name of game is production contracts awarded to brit factories, not royalties. You want 10's of billions worth of JSF business then you gotta order the sucker in decent quantities. No free ride. No pass go & collect $200. Go deep and the question morphs to do you want brit mil aerospace after EF is done? Without US partnerships aren't Bae & R-R left staring over a cliff?
Jacko,
sigh, picks up stick, approaches deceased equine..
assumption that US law forces export customers to pay US R&D costs is bogus. Shoot the nark that told you that.
UK will pay same UPC/recurring cost/flyaway as US i.e. $45m/$59m/$62m by variant according to latest. And yeah, I know it'll go up. Plus UK's generous contrib to development costs of 2ish billion pounds of which Gordo's coughed up about half.
So even the most Gucci USN model (which enquiring minds read is inching back onto brit wishlists) will cost the UK less in dollars than Typhoon in pounds. Roughly half price.
Ignoring money grubbing, not clear why if EF is so good at the Red Baron stuff and JSF is bomb trucker par excellence, why you're not begging for a mix n'match. Lobby for both and buy some Bae stock would be my advice.
BTW, ITAR waivers and getting UK design rights are two different things.
Jacko,
sigh, picks up stick, approaches deceased equine..
assumption that US law forces export customers to pay US R&D costs is bogus. Shoot the nark that told you that.
UK will pay same UPC/recurring cost/flyaway as US i.e. $45m/$59m/$62m by variant according to latest. And yeah, I know it'll go up. Plus UK's generous contrib to development costs of 2ish billion pounds of which Gordo's coughed up about half.
So even the most Gucci USN model (which enquiring minds read is inching back onto brit wishlists) will cost the UK less in dollars than Typhoon in pounds. Roughly half price.
Ignoring money grubbing, not clear why if EF is so good at the Red Baron stuff and JSF is bomb trucker par excellence, why you're not begging for a mix n'match. Lobby for both and buy some Bae stock would be my advice.
BTW, ITAR waivers and getting UK design rights are two different things.
We're going to pay £19 Bn for Typhoon regardless, either in payment or in penalties. The unit cost including R&D is therefore an irrelevance.
Each Typhoon's unit production cost is less than £45 m ($84.58m US, €66.26m).
Through life costs will be somewhere in the region of 200% of that figure, and are contractually guaranteed, together with defect rates, TBOs, etc.
We pay for Typhoon in £ sterling, and not in $ US, so there's a massive benefit to the balance of payments, and much of the money flows straight back into the exchequer in corporate and personal taxation.
No-one believes the JSF's quoted costs/prices, least of all the GAO. If we buy 82 aircraft (which seems to be the latest figure) then we've already paid out somewhere in the region of $24 m per jet, with the actual purchase price due to be set in 2011. Even if the $59 m figure were to be maintained we'd be paying $83 m per JSF and $84 m per Typhoon. Still sure that JSF will be cheaper than Typhoon then?
And through life costs are calculated to be equivalent to 300-400% of purchase price.
Which makes JSF a significantly more expensive jet.
And we don't need the niche capabilities it offers that Typhoon doesn't, with the possible exception of carrier capabilities. And if we do need it, then we need relatively tiny numbers and we need to be able to support, sustain, maintain, upgrade and integrate our own kit, and that's why the continued absence of the ITAR waiver we were promised is a show-stopper.
And it won't carry our 'Day One' weapons, and we can do the job better with TLAM and stand off than with JSF.
As to UK production of the rear fuselage, we can only be replaced if someone else can offer better value, and with Samlesbury up, running and tooled, that's unlikely.
Each Typhoon's unit production cost is less than £45 m ($84.58m US, €66.26m).
Through life costs will be somewhere in the region of 200% of that figure, and are contractually guaranteed, together with defect rates, TBOs, etc.
We pay for Typhoon in £ sterling, and not in $ US, so there's a massive benefit to the balance of payments, and much of the money flows straight back into the exchequer in corporate and personal taxation.
No-one believes the JSF's quoted costs/prices, least of all the GAO. If we buy 82 aircraft (which seems to be the latest figure) then we've already paid out somewhere in the region of $24 m per jet, with the actual purchase price due to be set in 2011. Even if the $59 m figure were to be maintained we'd be paying $83 m per JSF and $84 m per Typhoon. Still sure that JSF will be cheaper than Typhoon then?
And through life costs are calculated to be equivalent to 300-400% of purchase price.
Which makes JSF a significantly more expensive jet.
And we don't need the niche capabilities it offers that Typhoon doesn't, with the possible exception of carrier capabilities. And if we do need it, then we need relatively tiny numbers and we need to be able to support, sustain, maintain, upgrade and integrate our own kit, and that's why the continued absence of the ITAR waiver we were promised is a show-stopper.
And it won't carry our 'Day One' weapons, and we can do the job better with TLAM and stand off than with JSF.
As to UK production of the rear fuselage, we can only be replaced if someone else can offer better value, and with Samlesbury up, running and tooled, that's unlikely.
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Ah the holy grail of procurement - the uncancellable program. I don't think so. Doesn't current deal just say work can't drop in euro factories if UK numbers cut back? Couple obvious ways to do that without costing a penny. And then again, all the partners could just agree to change the rules couldn't they?
All Typhoon R&D is water under the bridge? I don't think so. Not if you want that fancy A-G. And don't forget you'll need extra cash to bring early frames up to latest standard.
On the other hand, all UK JSF R&D funding will be paid by Christmas. Sweet.
JSF TLC twice Typhoon's? I don't think so.
So R&D favors JSF. Production costs favor JSF. Assume same TLC so what's left? Oh yeah, each Typhoon is still twice the price. Ba boom.
Which is borne out by the current Norwegian experience. Twice as many JSF's at the same price.
Bombing bad guys in high threat neighborhoods a niche capability? I don't think so.
Bae the only place that can build fighter back ends? I don't think so. I doubt very much whether an order as small as 82 will keep production work in the UK. Bunch of congressmen right now think the Uk is getting too sweet a deal. Only buy that few and they'll be really pissed.
Why does this feel like mythbusters?
My advice is to drop the jingoism & dodgy math. Presumably sells your spotter monthly stuff - yankee's screwin' us again, read all about it - but a lot less than useful for a reasonable debate .
BTW, ITAR waiver won't get you design rights. You think once you get the waiver you'll get every US technology? You wish.
All Typhoon R&D is water under the bridge? I don't think so. Not if you want that fancy A-G. And don't forget you'll need extra cash to bring early frames up to latest standard.
On the other hand, all UK JSF R&D funding will be paid by Christmas. Sweet.
JSF TLC twice Typhoon's? I don't think so.
So R&D favors JSF. Production costs favor JSF. Assume same TLC so what's left? Oh yeah, each Typhoon is still twice the price. Ba boom.
Which is borne out by the current Norwegian experience. Twice as many JSF's at the same price.
Bombing bad guys in high threat neighborhoods a niche capability? I don't think so.
Bae the only place that can build fighter back ends? I don't think so. I doubt very much whether an order as small as 82 will keep production work in the UK. Bunch of congressmen right now think the Uk is getting too sweet a deal. Only buy that few and they'll be really pissed.
Why does this feel like mythbusters?
My advice is to drop the jingoism & dodgy math. Presumably sells your spotter monthly stuff - yankee's screwin' us again, read all about it - but a lot less than useful for a reasonable debate .
BTW, ITAR waiver won't get you design rights. You think once you get the waiver you'll get every US technology? You wish.