Capped Actuals - What are your experiences?

[Hoots]

Fellow capped actual users, whats happening around the various stations with regards to having a sensible couple of beers or wine with a meal as I seem to be hearing different stations applying different rules. Couldnt find anything mentioned on the subject in JSP 752. Also, have been told that IE can only be claimed retrospectively and not up front, is this the same at every station? Can the young LAC or SAC afford to go on det and have to stump up laundry, phone charges etc. Is the 10% allowed for gratuity included in the DS or can it be claimed back in addition to? What if in the USA where the service charge is included on the bill and is above 10%? Seems that morale is getting lower all the time, as the admin burden increases steadily. How many more push factors are we going to get before the powers to be wake up and smell the roses, for the sake of pennies in the overall scheme of things why could it not be just left the way it was. I also feel for the poor imprest clerks who have had their hours cut and are job sharing and have now had the workload vastly increased. One stated the other day that it tool a full week to go through all the receipts, paperwork etc and the in tray is filling up and overflowing rapidly. I can't wait til i go to the USA for a month on capped actuals, is the hassle all worth it. Would be more acceptable perhaps if the civil service had the same rules.

[Sven Sixtoo]

The oddest thing I've found having read JSP752 (sad)(and this was confirmed by my Stn Allowances people yesterday) is that as soon as the journey is over 5 hr, I'm entitled to actuals up to the UK DS rate of £21. Given that the 5-10 hr rate used to be about £4, and the over 10 hr rate about £9, this seems a huge advance. It's so odd I'm unconvinced despite best advice.

Anyone confirm?

Sven

[Brown Job]

You are correct for any duty over 5 hours and more than 5 miles from your place of (temp) duty you can claim for up to £21 receipted costs. It covers breakfast (if not covered by NS) and or lunch and or dinner so one expensive meal or three cheap ones its your choice!

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Hoots,
Crikey - loadsa questions, still this is my understanding:
Fellow capped actual users, whats happening around the various stations with regards to having a sensible couple of beers or wine with a meal as I seem to be hearing different stations applying different rules.Couldnt find anything mentioned on the subject in JSP 752.
The JSP just states that lunch is "two courses and a drink" and dinner "three courses and a drink". I don't believe there has been any central guidance on the meaning of "drink", i.e. alcohol allowed or not. As a result local rules seem to be being applied by each Stn. I hear the Secret Airbase in Oxon is allowing half a bottle of wine but others say none at all!
Also, have been told that IE can only be claimed retrospectively and not up front, is this the same at every station?
IE is also worked out only on actual expenditure so can't be claimed in advance.
Can the young LAC or SAC afford to go on det and have to stump up laundry, phone charges etc.
AFAIK there have been at least two ways developed to dealing with the pay now/claim back afterward problem, either:
1. You claim an advance before you go, but this seems tortuous in itself.
2. Crew based aircraft are continuing to take Imprests, but as has been mentioned elsewhere on this and other threads, this adds to the workload of the Imprest Holder.
Is the 10% allowed for gratuity included in the DS or can it be claimed back in addition to?
Yes your capped actual includes the gratuity.
What if in the USA where the service charge is included on the bill and is above 10%?
AFAIK this is tough - the extra above 10% comes out of your own pocket, but I'll defer anyone who has come up with a legal way round this.
Would be more acceptable perhaps if the civil service had the same rules.
Can't agree more.
D4R

[Grimweasel]

The service charge is included in the allowance. Therefore you must spend 10% less on the meal to cover the tip as well. Read it somewhere but can't remember where. No bleating...just have to deal with it troops!!

[L1A2 discharged]

Double payment - eek!

Just been to where men wear skirts for a trip. Had an advance, took 2 tries to get that sorted.

came back, put claim in.

No problem so far, however, ... the system has not recognised the advance and has paid me twice. Spoke to hurrah (HR) and they advised me to speak to JPAC. No reply so far ...

I am told that 'over issues' will be reclaimed from the next months pay after the claim hits 31 days, not spending it just waiting and seeing.

Still, it beats not being able to get an advance

[Yeller_Gait]

JSP 752

D4R,

To expand on your answers above, and quoting from JSP 752,

if the service charge/gratuity is included in the bill then any percentage is payable, but only up to your daily subsitence limit. A maximum 10% optional gratuity is admissable.

03.0111. Gratuities and Service Charges. If a gratuity (which is optional) or service charge (which may be discretionary) is included in the bill, it may be reclaimed. It is recognised that countries have different customs and expected percentages vary. As a general rule, any gratuity or service charge not included in the bill may be claimed, but should not exceed 10% of the value of the bill. Total reimbursement for food, drinks and gratuities or service charges is restricted to the DS limit.

Incidental expenses is a flat rate £5 in UK, and £10 overseas, payable if concurrently with Night subsistance. There is no reason why you can not claim for IE as part of an advance of rates.

03.0113. Incidental Expenses (IE). IE are designed to cover necessary personal incidental expenses actually incurred when an overnight absence in a hotel or temporary Service single accommodation is occupied. Allowable expenses are the cost of laundry/dry cleaning expenses, a daily telephone call home of up to 3 minutes duration and a daily newspaper. IE may be paid concurrently with all types of NS, but not with DS. Reimbursement of actual expenditure is to be supported by receipts (see paragraph 03.0171) and is limited to the rates at Chapter 1 Section 6.

For what it is worth, here we have been told that a 1/2 bottle of wine or two beers is acceptable with a meal.

Y_G

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

We have also had the alcohol rule changed here in Wilts

As regards IE and capped actuals blah if everything you purchase is under £5 in value you can self certificate and DO NOT need to provide reciepts. Our imprest office have stated that if you decide to purchase snacks and beverages during the course of your night stop, each to a value of less than £5, you can self certificate the whole lot and DO NOT need to provide any reciepts Sometimes I just love this job

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Y_G and ABIW,

Thanks for the extra info, the fog clears a little.

Good to hear that common sense is beginning to spread over the half a bottle of wine rule, hopefully it will reach here eventually.

D4R

[Melchett01]

Not noticed any common sense at my end of the trench regarding this.

Have just come back from a couple of weeks away at another unit. Day before last we all had to work late, something that only became apparent as the afternoon pushed on and the weather suddenly improved allowing sorties to go. Unfortunately, at the same time, the Mess was having a formal function so dinner was at 1630 or some Godforsaken time in the Sgts Mess when the ac were still up and everyone still working.

So we all got back late, hurrumphed at being denied access to the bar due to lack or 5s / tuxes and invaded the local curry house and we didn't even kick the arse out of it - starter, main course and a drink before retiring to a local hostelery.

36 hours later, our wonderful remfs tell us we are only entitled to Missed Meals payment for dinner and we can't claim for the cost of the meal. Apparently it was our own fault we missed dinner and we should have done something about it when we realised. Of course I'm sure the chefs and Mess Manager would have been only too delighted to rustle something up for us and put the function on hold. The Stn Cdr, Mayor and god knows who would have understood, I'm sure.

What a load of bollocks. I'm all for financial responsibility, but this is taking the pi55. It's yet again a total lack of flexibility by a system geared to the needs of the remfs and the bean counters, lacking any understanding of what the front line needs.

Edited after stopping fuming quite so much!

[Hoots]

Thanks for the info chaps, pleased to say that the sensible booze rule has reached here also, albeit after two dets on capped actuals and they wont let us claim retrospectively, even though I havnt put the paper work in yet.

Seems a bit crazy that the actual is for that day only, we were held up due to unforseen circumstances after landing one night and by the time we got back to the hotel everything had closed. even in it were open say after midnight, that would be using the next days actual and therefore would have to payback the previous little used one.

I dont mind accounting for what I spend but they should at least let you carry over actuals from one day to another, as long as it is accounted for then whats the problem. Another point raised was that when eating in a group and getting a group bill divided up whatever way you want to, we had to photocopy receipts so that everyone could have one for their records. After a short while the hotel, started charging for the photocopying, as it was about a dozen copies most meal times. It wasn't a problem for us due to having an imprest, but if using an advance then this should come under incidentals. Crapped actuals may me okay for small groups but is a real pain for large crews. Guys are not doing their primary jobs when returning from det, they are taking hours to sort out all the paperwork and take back any unused cash, including all the coins possible.

Am really looking forward to going to the states for a month on capped actuals, where the tip is generally greater than 10% and non-negotiable.

[Ginseng]

Alcohol

The latest offering I have for you all is that the JSP 752 will, apparently, be amended in future to state that the "drink" with a meal may be an alcoholic drink. There will be no more detailed definition of what constitutes a "drink". Of course, it will have to be paid for within your capped actual, or from your own pocket, which I suppose suggests some kind of limit (small in my case, but that is more due to an ageing bladder than an empty wallet!). Unfortunately, the amended JSP will probably also provide leeway for local commanders to make additional policy where they deem it appropriate. I guess it can't all be good news! Difficult to see, though, how that can be squared with the idea of a common tri-service system.

Regards

Ginseng

[Brown Job]

In pongoland, being simple souls, we take the letter of the law. A drink is what it says; a beer, a glass of wine, a whisky. The choice is yours but it is still, ....a drink.

[Sloppy Link]

Yep, me too. A drink is just that, what it is made up of is immaterial. The JSP is the written deliberately so that local commanders do not place an extra limitation upon existing limitation.
One problem with capped is when you find yourself in US BoQ for a period of time. Going out to eat and provide receipts is all very well but if it means having to get up an hour earlier to find a breakfast bar and then having to plough through a US breakfast but after a week of that regime, your liver and other parts of your digestive tract will not get the joke. There is not the ability to produce supermarket receipts for some cereal and pint of milk a day.
Finally (apologies if someone has raised it earlier), I defy anyone to feed themselves to a reasonable standard for £21 in London. Cup of tea alone is £1 to £1.50. A lunch in a TA Barracks is £12. There is over half my entitlement gone without my having breakfast and I still have evening meal ahead of me. We have been seen off.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Originally Posted by Sloppy Link

I defy anyone to feed themselves to a reasonable standard for £21 in London. Cup of tea alone is £1 to £1.50. A lunch in a TA Barracks is £12. There is over half my entitlement gone without my having breakfast and I still have evening meal ahead of me. We have been seen off.

Dear Sloppy;

The Breakfast 'rate' is part of NS and if you are not on B&B, then it is payable on top of your £21. Can't remember what it is though (£4.??ish).

But you are right though....it is impossible to get the 2 course lunch and 3 course dinner (with 'drink') for £21.

PS...Just went to the supermarket for brekky bits on a recent jaunt...Justification is that the hotel did not provide my preferred option...

Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke!!

[Sloppy Link]

Any one one caught the gem about using your car for duty journeys? Must prove before use that you have business insurance with £10M (yes, £10M!) cover for death or injury to a passenger, a third party or to property. Who has that level of cover (apart from people using their vehicles for business use....not transporting themselves to meeting)? This now means that as there are not enough Mil vehicles in the pool for all the meetings that an A&SD HQ staff have to attend, the local hire companies are going to be rubbing their hands in glee. The reason alot of people use their own cars is convenience which equals morale. It would certainly annoy to drive 10 miles into work to pick up a Mil/Hire car only to drive past my house on the way to the meeting a further 10 miles away. A 20 mile journey that would cost £5 or so PCR (do not forget PCR journeys are abated by any RILOR/RESPOD already being drawn) becomes £25 for a hire car plus petrol. What with the faff of worktickets, fuel cards, having to park your own car a 5 min walk from the MT gates which are locked at 0700 in the morning so a 10 min walk to the Guradroom to draw the keys to find you are not on the key list when some civvy who does not know what a sense of urgency turns up blah blah blah you can see where I am coming from. The rules state this is for all PCR claims so that means that on posting, I will get a hire car to get me to my new posting and then will have to somehow get back to my old posting to collect my own car to go to my new unit. What is the difference between my receiving RILOR/RESPOD to travel from my home to my normal place of work (no proof of any insurance required) and travelling to a different (temporary) place of duty? Finally,if you use a motorbike, then only third party insurance is required. Clearly, they consider motorbikes to be safer. I would wager that RoSPA would have a view on this.
Afternote...My Father runs a small business with a fleet of 3 vehicles. He has Fleet Business Insurance from one of the major insurers and is not covered to that level. Collectively, his vehicles cover 150K miles per annum. I can expect to cover about 1K
A perfectly good system that suited those who wanted it to. Why do people feel they have to interfere.

[Sloppy Link]

TQ J Bloke, was unaware of the £4 ish for brekky.

[Brown Bear]

Sat in a brief today with the new chief. He said he was keen to get rid of all the niff naff and triv! I wonder if he keeps his receipts??

[Ginseng]

JSP 752 Uprated to Version 3

JSP 752 has been amended to version 3, effective 26 May 06. A few of snippets from the changes include:

On Incidental Expenses: You can now spread your phone calls over the total number of days for which IE is claimed (good), but the JSP only specifically refers to reclaiming the actual cost of "buying a phone card" rather than aggregating other calls at the nominal rate of 3 minutes per day (why not?). No similar wording change to cover the laundry situation either.

On Day subsistence: You are only allowed now to claim for the cost of buying "prepared food", meaning anything from "a ready-made sandwich to a meal of several courses in a restaurant". It is apparently now illegal to buy the makings and construct your own sandwich, even if the costs fall within your allowable DS capped rate. Why, for heaven's sake? There must be bigger problems to be addressed than this!

Haven't seen the promised change to the definition of a "drink". I guess that is for the next amendment.

Regards

Ginseng

[Ginseng]

Mea culpa!

Oops. I should have read a bit more closely. The laundry wording has been changed; you can now officially aggregate the actual receipted cost of a wash over several days. Aplogies to all. Alternatively, do only up to £5 worth of washing each day, for which you won't need a receipt. What a great system this is! Must be careful not to choke on my pre-prepared sandwich.

Regards

Ginseng