WSOP PAY UPBANDING?
Hellbound
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Ahhhh, would have bought the credibility with the punters argument, not so sure about the credibility within the crew argument. Didn't they invent special leadership classes for that sort of thing? CRM... Anyone worth their salt will listen to a member of their crew no matter what their rank, anyone not worth their salt is unlikely to give more credibility to a 20 year old A/sgt than he is a a 20 year old A/cpl....
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JTO
Thanks for that sir, lol. My apologies for not being in the remotest bit interested in how much the pilots are being paid or their retention issues. How uncharitable of me to be concerned with my own issues and the issues concerning my own trade.
Avtur
If only they would spill the beans and let the troops know exactly what was happening.
I guess we will all find out in the fullness of time.
Go on PMA prove the rumours wrong and upband the ALM's, keep the PA spine and once and for all squash the idea of Cpl WSOp's.
Thanks for that sir, lol. My apologies for not being in the remotest bit interested in how much the pilots are being paid or their retention issues. How uncharitable of me to be concerned with my own issues and the issues concerning my own trade.
Avtur
If only they would spill the beans and let the troops know exactly what was happening.
I guess we will all find out in the fullness of time.
Go on PMA prove the rumours wrong and upband the ALM's, keep the PA spine and once and for all squash the idea of Cpl WSOp's.
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Agree with most of your argument South Bound, except for the last bit about those not worth their salt, I have seen certain officers give more respect to a Macr as opposed to a FS, and to a FS more than a Sgt. Overall the crews we work with embrace CRM and work well withing the crew enviroment, however there are still plenty of the, "no stick no vote" and "rank conscious on the Aircraft" types around, and will i think be around fo a long time to come. So i do believe that to be a SNCO on the Aircraft as part of the crew is an advantage and long should it stay that way.
Hellbound
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DF
agreed, it is just finding that balance. Are you really talking about respecting experience there or rank? We are all more likely to listen (or pay more heed) to someone that has been there before. My experience of RAF crews operating together was that team dynamics had very little to do with rank and more with credibility/experience.
Not suggesting doing away with the Seniors, but the discussion is fun...
agreed, it is just finding that balance. Are you really talking about respecting experience there or rank? We are all more likely to listen (or pay more heed) to someone that has been there before. My experience of RAF crews operating together was that team dynamics had very little to do with rank and more with credibility/experience.
Not suggesting doing away with the Seniors, but the discussion is fun...
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JTO
Apart from being hacked off at possibly get shafted once again the rest of it should be taken as intended, tongue in cheek. Seriously don't get wound up fella, in the majority its all banter.
As for the discussion regarding rank, well this is neither the time nor place for that particular argument. Perhaps we should have a new thread, do we need so many officers, snco's, etc.
What the troops on the ground, including myself, want to know is the result of our trades pay banding review. There are significant numbers of people who have made pension and career choices based on the information presented to them at the time, not surprisingly they are somewhat concerned regarding its outcome.
After 20 odd years service yes I am a little cynical but I'm afraid that's the nature of the beast.
Apart from being hacked off at possibly get shafted once again the rest of it should be taken as intended, tongue in cheek. Seriously don't get wound up fella, in the majority its all banter.
As for the discussion regarding rank, well this is neither the time nor place for that particular argument. Perhaps we should have a new thread, do we need so many officers, snco's, etc.
What the troops on the ground, including myself, want to know is the result of our trades pay banding review. There are significant numbers of people who have made pension and career choices based on the information presented to them at the time, not surprisingly they are somewhat concerned regarding its outcome.
After 20 odd years service yes I am a little cynical but I'm afraid that's the nature of the beast.
Last edited by WhoAreYa; 26th Apr 2006 at 15:55.
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What we currently don't need is bitching between the ranks. All NCA need someone to fly the platform, otherwise its not worth us being here is it. It also does not matter if that person is commissioned or not. More to the point it is also highly unlikely to change from the current situation. ALL OPERATIONAL flying requires input from NCA's in some form or another. Again this is probably unlikely to be someone below the rank of Sgt. I do have a hat to eat if this does change!!!
Bearing in mind the above points, mud slinging only degrades the NCA trades, who as we know, generally try to portray a professional image to our masters. The same people who ultimately will have to look behind the fridge for a few extra £’s if the ALM up-banding takes place. I know it is frustrating waiting to know the outcome of the review, I for one would rather know the result either way instead of being kept in the dark. Which I think is the main point that some people seem to have overlooked.
Bearing in mind the above points, mud slinging only degrades the NCA trades, who as we know, generally try to portray a professional image to our masters. The same people who ultimately will have to look behind the fridge for a few extra £’s if the ALM up-banding takes place. I know it is frustrating waiting to know the outcome of the review, I for one would rather know the result either way instead of being kept in the dark. Which I think is the main point that some people seem to have overlooked.
As one who may be affected by this thread (kinda hoping not as JPA has already taken my flying pay) I'd just like to throw this thought in. Most posts here keep refering to the WSOp cadre as AE, Eng, and ALM. There is in fact another trade which will be equally affected. Not sure I can mention the secret people on the secret plane at a secret place near Linclon. Oh ok then, come on Air Signalers what will hapen at 51 Sqn if you are down banded with the rest of us, because you to are part of the NCA band of brothers now.
You aint seen me right.
You aint seen me right.
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Think About it
Little dudes
This subject does date back to the review that was conducted when the banding was first brought in. The maritime clans, who were still hurting from 89, got together and put a strong case why - not we should be ok. Your case was not helped by the only ALMs interviewed wore blue suits and struggled getting up the cabin in a climb, mostly due to the green suits being out the country on operations. May I suggest you get a band of brothers together led by a worthy Master and put a strong worthwile factual, not emotional, case to your trade sponsor and thus to PMA. Seek advice from the Kipper fleet and the members who served on the review. Oh it may involve a load of work, PMA may throw it out, but nothing will change by bleating here or in the crewroom.
If I can be of any help PM me.
Good luck
Charlie sends
This subject does date back to the review that was conducted when the banding was first brought in. The maritime clans, who were still hurting from 89, got together and put a strong case why - not we should be ok. Your case was not helped by the only ALMs interviewed wore blue suits and struggled getting up the cabin in a climb, mostly due to the green suits being out the country on operations. May I suggest you get a band of brothers together led by a worthy Master and put a strong worthwile factual, not emotional, case to your trade sponsor and thus to PMA. Seek advice from the Kipper fleet and the members who served on the review. Oh it may involve a load of work, PMA may throw it out, but nothing will change by bleating here or in the crewroom.
If I can be of any help PM me.
Good luck
Charlie sends
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Nice to see the kippers have got their finger firmly on the pulse
We have just had a bloody trade review, did you misss it
, the ALM world did a fantastic job of self promotion, which is exactly why we are haveing this debate in here.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
We have just had a bloody trade review, did you misss it , the ALM world did a fantastic job of self promotion, which is exactly why we are haveing this debate in here.all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
ABIW
I think you will find CL is in Australia, part of the RAAF, and an ex Nimrod type (the hint is in his 'location'!!!). Hence it is not surprising that he is not totally up to speed on current UK ALM isssues. It would appear he was only trying to help, passing on his knowledge of what happened in the Nimrod fleet several years back when he was still serving. Still, if you are going to bite the hand that feeds you............................
I think you will find CL is in Australia, part of the RAAF, and an ex Nimrod type (the hint is in his 'location'!!!). Hence it is not surprising that he is not totally up to speed on current UK ALM isssues. It would appear he was only trying to help, passing on his knowledge of what happened in the Nimrod fleet several years back when he was still serving. Still, if you are going to bite the hand that feeds you............................
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Either way, with conjoint WSOp training and therefore the ability to move from albert to kippers to choppers freely (so it says here), how can they possibly justify different paybands?
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How can they justify paying WSOps differently? It's a tricky one. And it's at the Flight Sgt level and above where it takes effect as I understand it. At present the justification must be that the training is harder (debatable) and the job more technical (debatable) to be an Air Eng (I'm gonna use the old terms) or an Aeop or Air Siggie. I for one don't see why we are not payed all the same. However is an ALM on a Tristar doing a job which required more training and technical knowledge than the Air Engineer on the flight deck or the Lead Dry on the Nimrod? I suspect not. A Flt Sgt on an SF Herc or Chinook however could very easily justify being on the higher pay band, but they wont be.
I say up band everybody in the ALM world and lets crack on. Standing by for incoming from the Tristar fleet........
I say up band everybody in the ALM world and lets crack on. Standing by for incoming from the Tristar fleet........
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The problem with your argument is that the shiney fleet ALM's are but a small minority of the whole branch, I would imagine they would have little impact on the overall findings. Besides from a managerial and supervisory point their duties carry far more responsibly than the majority of others. Correct me if I'm wrong (you normally do) but I believe the pay banding is not solely judged on how technical your particular job is. I'm sure they also take into account supervisory responsibilities.
How else would you justify a WO mover being on the high pay band ? Is his job more technical than a MALM's ? Again I think not, but he does have significantly higher ranking officers in his trade (supply)fighting his cause than we do in the Wsop branch.
The fact remains that we are all the same trade now and in theory have no choice in which specialty or aircraft type we are employed on.
Should those personnel posted to ALM duties be penalised whilst their counterparts who wear the same brevet get paid more ?
With crossover being available (in theory) I wonder what would happen if all the ALM's applied for Aeng or Aeop duties.
How on earth they can justify the present system is beyond me.
How else would you justify a WO mover being on the high pay band ? Is his job more technical than a MALM's ? Again I think not, but he does have significantly higher ranking officers in his trade (supply)fighting his cause than we do in the Wsop branch.
The fact remains that we are all the same trade now and in theory have no choice in which specialty or aircraft type we are employed on.
Should those personnel posted to ALM duties be penalised whilst their counterparts who wear the same brevet get paid more ?
With crossover being available (in theory) I wonder what would happen if all the ALM's applied for Aeng or Aeop duties.
How on earth they can justify the present system is beyond me.
Last edited by WhoAreYa; 27th Apr 2006 at 11:35.
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I think that as far as i can tell we all agree that the system is wrong, and yes the shiny fleet is a small part of the overall trade. I was just using them as a controversial argument! As for loadies coming to the Aeop world....we would welcome them with open arms, but it always seems the stream is in the other direction!
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Job Evaluaton
Before you can comment on who deserves what you would have to find out how job evaluation works. As far as I understand it they award points for certain responsibilities like supervisory concerns, and yes technical ability, amount of initial training required, on the job training to remain current, value of equipment which you are in charge of etc,etc. As for the shiney fleet, a lot of them are ex rotary or Herc and although may now be in a more sedentary job, some of us may be glad of that opportunuty ourselves when we are a bit older or less able. However it does raise the question that at the moment if a FS or MACR ALM crosses over to ciggie or Eng would he get a payrise. There are some Air Engineers crossing over to ALMs and if they are not on PA spine are they going to take a pay cut/mark time/or be on more money than their ALM counterparts for doing the same job. This did happen previously and may still be happening on the rotary fleet, as on 230 sqn pumas (many moons ago) they had 1 x AEop, 1 x Air Eng and 3 x Navs all doing a crewman's job and all on different pay.
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There are currently 5 AEOps (2 FSs and 3 Sgts) at Shawbury doing the full crewman's course (not just swapping over to SAR RadOp). At least 1 will tell you that he's not getting a pay cut for moving over, yet they're doing exactly the same course as the WSOp(ALM) - Rotary (if only the salary went up in line with the length of the job title...).
And of course, exactly the same course as the RM Cpls...
If this disparity is not addressed, retention of ALMs will get worse, no ALM will want to get promoted (not for the added crap they get for about thrupence ha'penny a day) and so all the FS posts will be filled by AEOps (and the odd Air Eng) who have migrated across. And all the good Sgts will have comissioned into the Flt Ops Branch
I really hope this issue is sorted soon and I hope that the result is favourable for the loadies. All the NCA trades train for a considerable period and are highly skilled and switched on individuals who are expected to make potentially life-saving decisions in a flash - every day. They work bloody hard and it's an absolute farce that a scuffer or slop jockey (or worse, a mover) should get paid more. Get a grip PMA.
And of course, exactly the same course as the RM Cpls...
If this disparity is not addressed, retention of ALMs will get worse, no ALM will want to get promoted (not for the added crap they get for about thrupence ha'penny a day) and so all the FS posts will be filled by AEOps (and the odd Air Eng) who have migrated across. And all the good Sgts will have comissioned into the Flt Ops Branch
I really hope this issue is sorted soon and I hope that the result is favourable for the loadies. All the NCA trades train for a considerable period and are highly skilled and switched on individuals who are expected to make potentially life-saving decisions in a flash - every day. They work bloody hard and it's an absolute farce that a scuffer or slop jockey (or worse, a mover) should get paid more. Get a grip PMA.
It is a complete farce:
When you are next dangling from a winch, in a sea-state 7, at night, trying to save the life of some sailor, whilst the winch op is skillfully guiding the pilot; think of the FS or WO musicians blowing their own trumpet or pulling their string who are getting paid higher basic pay than you.
Justify that?
High and Low pay bands for each trade can can be seen at: http://www.rafcom.co.uk/pay_allowances/pay_aux.cfm
When you are next dangling from a winch, in a sea-state 7, at night, trying to save the life of some sailor, whilst the winch op is skillfully guiding the pilot; think of the FS or WO musicians blowing their own trumpet or pulling their string who are getting paid higher basic pay than you.
Justify that?
High and Low pay bands for each trade can can be seen at: http://www.rafcom.co.uk/pay_allowances/pay_aux.cfm
Hellbound
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At the risk of starting a fight, the difference (or similarity) in pay between NCA and ground trades is not the issue - dangling at the end of the rope gets the flying pay to ensure NCA are paid more, no matter what their pay banding. We shouldn't lose sight that it is the alignment of the WSOp branches that is the issue.
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Southbound.
Flying pay is for recruitment and retention, not the job in hand. If not, then the Sgts wouldn't be on the lower band either.
My point was that down-banding all WSOps to the non-tech band would be indefensible. How can a job become non-technical upon promotion. A major problem when the first job survey was completed was that there were an awful lot of MALMs and FSs in Sgts PICs due to the old time promotion system. Therefore, they didn't earn their money.
Flying pay is for recruitment and retention, not the job in hand. If not, then the Sgts wouldn't be on the lower band either.
My point was that down-banding all WSOps to the non-tech band would be indefensible. How can a job become non-technical upon promotion. A major problem when the first job survey was completed was that there were an awful lot of MALMs and FSs in Sgts PICs due to the old time promotion system. Therefore, they didn't earn their money.