Sold out - SAR force to be privatised
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Sold out - SAR force to be privatised
The front page of the Mail on Sunday (no link unfortunately) carries the story that the SAR force is to be privatised, with Bristow among the companies likely to be in the frame for the contract.
One of the reasons is the fact that Sea Kings are getting old and knackered, and that the Merlin is not up to the job.
Now I understood that SAR was established with the primary purpase of military search-and-rescue, and that civilian rescues provided both invaluable training and a humanitarian duty.
So, if this rationale is turned on its head, what about CSAR in future conflicts? Will this be written into the contract?
One of the reasons is the fact that Sea Kings are getting old and knackered, and that the Merlin is not up to the job.
Now I understood that SAR was established with the primary purpase of military search-and-rescue, and that civilian rescues provided both invaluable training and a humanitarian duty.
So, if this rationale is turned on its head, what about CSAR in future conflicts? Will this be written into the contract?
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Sorry, I meant "military search and rescue" for the SAR fleet - like plucking the F3 crew out of the North Sea in 2004. My concern is that the UK does not have a comprehensive CSAR capability and this privatisation will make the future prospect of such a capability even more unlikely.
Also, the career path of SAR crews is integrated with the wider RN/RAF rotary fleets (to my knowledge based on working at a unit with a SAR flight - I will, of course, defer to the experts!) and this appears to be both a back-door cutback which removes military expertise in a specific capability area - and the loss of a harmony posting.
Also, the career path of SAR crews is integrated with the wider RN/RAF rotary fleets (to my knowledge based on working at a unit with a SAR flight - I will, of course, defer to the experts!) and this appears to be both a back-door cutback which removes military expertise in a specific capability area - and the loss of a harmony posting.
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My concern is that the UK does not have a comprehensive CSAR capability and this privatisation will make the future prospect of such a capability even more unlikely.
Maybe if the new civilian contract is controlled by the UK Coastguard and funded by another government department, the MOD may be able to concentrate its funding on a deployable, CSAR capability - which is, after all, what the front-line needs these days.
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Whilst the thought of the loss of Mil SAR does leave me a little uneasy, perhaps this could be the chance for the current SAR org (those who do not want to work on the Erics!) to be re-roled into a proper mil CSAR. Would the Bristows operate from the present SAR unit site or will they be pushed off base?
Dream time; what would be the ideal CSAR mount? Osprey?
Dream time; what would be the ideal CSAR mount? Osprey?
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[quote=LFFC] I know this may be a controversial view, but perhaps the military provision of a UK coastal SAR service is an outdated Coldwar anachronism.
I'll remember that the next time I'm risking my neck on the end of the wire! LLFC, It's Sunday. You're supposed to have a day off from talking b0ll0cks.
Bell end.
I'll remember that the next time I'm risking my neck on the end of the wire! LLFC, It's Sunday. You're supposed to have a day off from talking b0ll0cks.
Bell end.
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Sorry to have upset you - I have the greatest respect for what you do, and I do believe that SAR services will always be required around the UK coastline. But I did say ".. the military provision of..." - are you saying that a civilian service couldn't provide that? If so, why?
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The involvement of private money in SAR would mean only one thing - someone would be hoping to make financial profit from it.
I find that a bit sick.
Sure, a private company willing to provide expertise in return for financial gain in any area is just business and is fine, but the RAF/RN model ain't broke - so don't try to fix it.
To outsource could mean that the government don't regard that element of the RAF and RNs role as important, i.e. it's not as essential as putting those resources into military operations where the outcome could be to financial gain - Iraq, for example where the objective is to secure oil resources, not to liberate civilians.
On the other hand, to outsource an essential, lifesaving service like this could also mean that the government doesn't think the armed forces are as good as privateers, which raises all sorts of bigger questions. The main one being, "why aren't the armed forces as good?".
Oh, and if the Sea Kings are getting old and knackered - buy some new ones, or make provision for other choppers that can do the job. There's some things you HAVE to spend money on. These assets save lives. Simple.
Labour Plc is getting out of hand.
I find that a bit sick.
Sure, a private company willing to provide expertise in return for financial gain in any area is just business and is fine, but the RAF/RN model ain't broke - so don't try to fix it.
To outsource could mean that the government don't regard that element of the RAF and RNs role as important, i.e. it's not as essential as putting those resources into military operations where the outcome could be to financial gain - Iraq, for example where the objective is to secure oil resources, not to liberate civilians.
On the other hand, to outsource an essential, lifesaving service like this could also mean that the government doesn't think the armed forces are as good as privateers, which raises all sorts of bigger questions. The main one being, "why aren't the armed forces as good?".
Oh, and if the Sea Kings are getting old and knackered - buy some new ones, or make provision for other choppers that can do the job. There's some things you HAVE to spend money on. These assets save lives. Simple.
Labour Plc is getting out of hand.
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I will defer to serving colleagues but I think there is a difference between RN and RAF SAR. In the RN all helo crews are trained in SAR as they need it when deployed at sea. Their roles at Culdrose and Prestwick are primarily for civil rescue and hours paid for by the DTI - effectively an RN SAR tour is a respite (shore) tour from the front line, it is not a career path. In the RAF, SAR is there primarily for the rescue of downed RAF aircrew and is a career path in itself. In the RAF there is virtually no transfer into the front line for CSAR or vice versa, whereas in the RN any helo aircrew can ask for a SAR tour.
Re CSAR I thought Hoon announced a while back that the RN (via the JHC) were providing a nascent CSAR capability and the RAF Merlins would add to the role in due course.
Re CSAR I thought Hoon announced a while back that the RN (via the JHC) were providing a nascent CSAR capability and the RAF Merlins would add to the role in due course.
Harrogate,
At what cost to the taxpayer vice the civvie model being proposed?
the RAF/RN model ain't broke - so don't try to fix it.
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Originally Posted by SASless
Harrogate,
At what cost to the taxpayer vice the civvie model being proposed?
At what cost to the taxpayer vice the civvie model being proposed?
You could argue that all roles carried out by the services can be carried out by private companies - but you need to draw a line. Where you draw that line depends on what you value as an individual; I'd rather the RAF or RN plucked me from the water - that's just a personal choice. They're good at it - I've seen them. With my eyes.
Ask people what they begrudge their taxes being spent on and they say things like - unnnecessary wars, 7 layers of management in their local NHS trust, politicians making unnecessarry flights on the royal jets or big white domes in central London. When a SeaKing flies over my house in Cleethorpes on a busy afternoon in the summer, I don't hear anyone saying "I wonder who the hell is paying for that?".
If someone's complete and utter idiocy results in a avoidable call-out, then the MoD aren't scared of sending them the bill and making them pay. I've seen them do that too.
There's an undeniable feel good factor in having the armed forces fulfilling this role too. Our taxes have paid for us to have the best armed forces in the world (despite Labour Plc's best efforts) and the tax payers deserve to benefit from them.
Still, resistance is futile, I fear. Privatisation is the order of the day... I've no doubt whatsoever that in 15 years time UAVs from the Tesco Squadon will be dropping bright red 'Coca Cola' emblazoned bombs on a bunch of pathetic peasants in some far corner of the globe and your rescue from the sea by the Vodafone SAR Flight will entail a compulsory 24 month phone contract.
Last edited by harrogate; 16th Apr 2006 at 18:31.
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So, two possible reasons for this privatisation are:
1. Creation of a "world class" civilian SAR capability for the 21st century, things can only get better etc..
2. Another military cut back.
1. Creation of a "world class" civilian SAR capability for the 21st century, things can only get better etc..
2. Another military cut back.
I have to say all this "can the civvies do the job" speak is a bit un-necessary.. do not bristows already fly cover for the coastguard? (although I seem to recall they're not 24 hrs? anyone?) It seems that extending the contract to cover the rest of the UK for all hours is not unreasonable. And everyone knows, in their heart of hearts, that civvy cover will be cheaper and be equally professional (ambulance service seems to do a reasonable job, and the fire chaps also (when they're not on strike!)). It's a shame that it's going out of mil hands, but hopefully the new guys will do a good job, and the resources and experience freed up dumped into some kind of csar effort (pipe dream!)...
Osprey by the way
Osprey by the way
Bismark,
That's not entirely true. All RAF crews are also trained in basic SAR but not to the same level as the frontline SAR crews. They also practise this on their frontline aircraft (occasionally). Lots of RAF SAR pilots are now flying Merlin, Chinook and Puma (as well as instructing at SARTU and Shawbury) and I do know of at least one LM who has also gone that way. This rotation of crews was encouraged to provide transference of skills. It also works the other way and there are numerous SH personnel on SAR.
The winchman training is so specialised that to do one tour and return to SH (if that is where they have come from) would not be cost effective or ideal for manning; it takes about 18 months for them to gain their full paramedic qual. A large proportion of the Radar/Winch operators come from the Nimrod and not from rotary. It is, however, true that a lot of the RAF personnel spend several tours on SAR whereas the RN crews typically only do one.
I wouldn't believe everything you read in the paper. It is well know that the aircraft are tired. It is well known that there are contract proceedings ongoing for future SAR provision. How this is going to happen is not known but the current suggestions are that, wherever the airframe comes from, there will still be a large number of military crews. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if this changes but it is still exceptionally early days yet.
p.s. One of the bidders will be Westland and they make the Merlin. Don't rule that out yet.
p.p.s. Don't necessarily tie civvy and Bristow's together. As of next year the Coastguard will be provided by CHC. Basing decisions are up to the contract bidder to decide.
That's not entirely true. All RAF crews are also trained in basic SAR but not to the same level as the frontline SAR crews. They also practise this on their frontline aircraft (occasionally). Lots of RAF SAR pilots are now flying Merlin, Chinook and Puma (as well as instructing at SARTU and Shawbury) and I do know of at least one LM who has also gone that way. This rotation of crews was encouraged to provide transference of skills. It also works the other way and there are numerous SH personnel on SAR.
The winchman training is so specialised that to do one tour and return to SH (if that is where they have come from) would not be cost effective or ideal for manning; it takes about 18 months for them to gain their full paramedic qual. A large proportion of the Radar/Winch operators come from the Nimrod and not from rotary. It is, however, true that a lot of the RAF personnel spend several tours on SAR whereas the RN crews typically only do one.
I wouldn't believe everything you read in the paper. It is well know that the aircraft are tired. It is well known that there are contract proceedings ongoing for future SAR provision. How this is going to happen is not known but the current suggestions are that, wherever the airframe comes from, there will still be a large number of military crews. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if this changes but it is still exceptionally early days yet.
p.s. One of the bidders will be Westland and they make the Merlin. Don't rule that out yet.
p.p.s. Don't necessarily tie civvy and Bristow's together. As of next year the Coastguard will be provided by CHC. Basing decisions are up to the contract bidder to decide.
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SAR time for a big re think?
Having worked with the UK armed forces over the years I have always been very favorably impressed by the professional attitude of all that I have met, what always seemed to be holding these guys back was the people at the blunt end.
Shed loads of petty rules that seemed to do nothing except cover the 6 of some civil servant are it seems the order of the day and very little attention paid to enableing the guys at the front end to get the job required done and even less attention paid to making the job less of a problem.
Perhaps we should see this as a chance to scrap the top heavy management and let the guys do the job with a management who want to fly and not to push paper.
I'm sure that most of the crews of civilian SAR will be ex-military and so if properly funded I don't see a drop in the presant (outstanding) standards of SAR service.
Shed loads of petty rules that seemed to do nothing except cover the 6 of some civil servant are it seems the order of the day and very little attention paid to enableing the guys at the front end to get the job required done and even less attention paid to making the job less of a problem.
Perhaps we should see this as a chance to scrap the top heavy management and let the guys do the job with a management who want to fly and not to push paper.
I'm sure that most of the crews of civilian SAR will be ex-military and so if properly funded I don't see a drop in the presant (outstanding) standards of SAR service.
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There was a serious debate about this last year.
Lots of opinion so well worth a read.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=174268
Regards
TW
(first few replies to original thread are good though)
Lots of opinion so well worth a read.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=174268
Regards
TW
(first few replies to original thread are good though)
HGate,
When bobbin in the Oggin...I will gladly latch onto the first line thrown be it a commercial fisherman (assuming there are any left) or a RN or RAF or Civvie Helicopter. As long as we get the same level and quality of service for the same or less costs....who is the loser?
The guy whose ox is getting gored is the one that will be doing the moaning here.
When bobbin in the Oggin...I will gladly latch onto the first line thrown be it a commercial fisherman (assuming there are any left) or a RN or RAF or Civvie Helicopter. As long as we get the same level and quality of service for the same or less costs....who is the loser?
The guy whose ox is getting gored is the one that will be doing the moaning here.
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Originally Posted by SAR Bloke
All RAF crews are also trained in basic SAR but not to the same level as the frontline SAR crews.
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When they go on strike, will we roll out the flying yellow goddess?
When I joined a milliion years ago, it was because I wanted to be a SAR pilot. Of course, I ended up fighters but it doesn't mean I don't still regard the SAR guys in the highest regard. So, what value PR? I bet we get more good PR from the yellow wokkas than we do from the Red Arrows! Exceptional value for money and a capability we should not lose.
When I joined a milliion years ago, it was because I wanted to be a SAR pilot. Of course, I ended up fighters but it doesn't mean I don't still regard the SAR guys in the highest regard. So, what value PR? I bet we get more good PR from the yellow wokkas than we do from the Red Arrows! Exceptional value for money and a capability we should not lose.