Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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Both carriers are now operational - since Friday.
HMS Prince of Wales ready for global missions as international exercise ends off Scotland
The UK today has two world-leading aircraft carriers ready for duties around the globe after HMS Prince of Wales was declared fully operational.
A fortnight-long international exercise off the Scottish coast put the stamp on two years of intensive training for the Portsmouth-based warship, 700-plus crew, the Royal Navy and RAF squadrons who will operate aircraft from her flight deck – including the fifth-generation F-35 Lightning stealth fighter – and thousands of military personnel and civilians who support and maintain the endeavour.
It means HMS Prince of Wales can join her sister HMS Queen Elizabeth on the world stage; the latter is currently beginning the second half of her maiden deployment commanding an international carrier strike group in the Pacific.
“We have excitingly jumped the final hurdle and are now a fully-fledged strike carrier, ready at 30 days’ notice for operations around the globe,” said HMS Prince of Wales’ Commanding Officer Captain Steve Higham.
“This is a significant moment for the ship which will see us operate with fighter jets, helicopters, drones, and other vessel. We’ll achieve all of this by working with our friends and colleagues from the RAF, the British Army and across Defence to deliver our contribution for the UK as a problem-solving, burden-sharing partner nation.
“The whole Prince of Wales team are grateful for the support of our followers, our families and our friends and hope that they keep following us towards our first deployment.”
The carrier’s Senior Warfare Officer Lieutenant Commander David Thompson added: “HMS Prince of Wales is at the end of a challenging yet successful journey on the road to operational readiness. We are prepared to support Commander UK Strike Forces and are relishing the opportunity to work alongside other allied nations.”
The final act of the new carrier’s preparation for operations was participation in the largest military exercise hosted in the UK this autumn.
Thousands of military personnel from a dozen nations took part in the combined UK/NATO exercise Joint Warrior/Dynamic Mariner which ended yesterday, testing their abilities individually and collectively to deal with global events.
I am sure that Dynamic Mariner is normally an ASW exercise, but I might be wrong. I would like to know more about the ASW exercise.
Ten Royal Navy vessels, plus elements of four Fleet Air Arm squadrons (troop carrying and submarine-hunting Merlins, Commando and anti-surface Wildcats and Hawk jets which have decamped from Cornwall to Scotland), Royal Marines of 3 Commando Brigade and the guns of their supporting artillery regiment, 29 Commando RA, plus senior staffs – around 2,000 men and women in all – represented the Senior Service.
Elements of four FAA squadrons? From the description that would be 815 NAS with Wildcat HM2 aboard the frigates, 847 NAS with Jungly Wildcat AH1s aboard Prince of Wales, either 845 NAS or 846 NAS aboard (somewhere - ????) with Merlin HC4, and Merlin HM2 aboard Prince of Wales. How many HM2s though - and from what unit? If we imagine it was a couple, and that a pair of Pingers were aboard Prince of Wales, then that means nine Merlin HM2s were embarked aboard the carriers, therefore if all nine were aboard the same carrier, that means six could be used for ASW and the three Crowsnest aircraft could concentrate on AEW.
The NATO Response Force flagship role will have a heavy emphasis on ASW.
HMS Prince of Wales ready for global missions as international exercise ends off Scotland
The UK today has two world-leading aircraft carriers ready for duties around the globe after HMS Prince of Wales was declared fully operational.
A fortnight-long international exercise off the Scottish coast put the stamp on two years of intensive training for the Portsmouth-based warship, 700-plus crew, the Royal Navy and RAF squadrons who will operate aircraft from her flight deck – including the fifth-generation F-35 Lightning stealth fighter – and thousands of military personnel and civilians who support and maintain the endeavour.
It means HMS Prince of Wales can join her sister HMS Queen Elizabeth on the world stage; the latter is currently beginning the second half of her maiden deployment commanding an international carrier strike group in the Pacific.
“We have excitingly jumped the final hurdle and are now a fully-fledged strike carrier, ready at 30 days’ notice for operations around the globe,” said HMS Prince of Wales’ Commanding Officer Captain Steve Higham.
“This is a significant moment for the ship which will see us operate with fighter jets, helicopters, drones, and other vessel. We’ll achieve all of this by working with our friends and colleagues from the RAF, the British Army and across Defence to deliver our contribution for the UK as a problem-solving, burden-sharing partner nation.
“The whole Prince of Wales team are grateful for the support of our followers, our families and our friends and hope that they keep following us towards our first deployment.”
The carrier’s Senior Warfare Officer Lieutenant Commander David Thompson added: “HMS Prince of Wales is at the end of a challenging yet successful journey on the road to operational readiness. We are prepared to support Commander UK Strike Forces and are relishing the opportunity to work alongside other allied nations.”
The final act of the new carrier’s preparation for operations was participation in the largest military exercise hosted in the UK this autumn.
Thousands of military personnel from a dozen nations took part in the combined UK/NATO exercise Joint Warrior/Dynamic Mariner which ended yesterday, testing their abilities individually and collectively to deal with global events.
I am sure that Dynamic Mariner is normally an ASW exercise, but I might be wrong. I would like to know more about the ASW exercise.
Ten Royal Navy vessels, plus elements of four Fleet Air Arm squadrons (troop carrying and submarine-hunting Merlins, Commando and anti-surface Wildcats and Hawk jets which have decamped from Cornwall to Scotland), Royal Marines of 3 Commando Brigade and the guns of their supporting artillery regiment, 29 Commando RA, plus senior staffs – around 2,000 men and women in all – represented the Senior Service.
Elements of four FAA squadrons? From the description that would be 815 NAS with Wildcat HM2 aboard the frigates, 847 NAS with Jungly Wildcat AH1s aboard Prince of Wales, either 845 NAS or 846 NAS aboard (somewhere - ????) with Merlin HC4, and Merlin HM2 aboard Prince of Wales. How many HM2s though - and from what unit? If we imagine it was a couple, and that a pair of Pingers were aboard Prince of Wales, then that means nine Merlin HM2s were embarked aboard the carriers, therefore if all nine were aboard the same carrier, that means six could be used for ASW and the three Crowsnest aircraft could concentrate on AEW.
The NATO Response Force flagship role will have a heavy emphasis on ASW.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 27th Oct 2021 at 20:26.
Ten Royal Navy vessels, plus elements of four Fleet Air Arm squadrons (troop carrying and submarine-hunting Merlins, Commando and anti-surface Wildcats and Hawk jets which have decamped from Cornwall to Scotland), Royal Marines of 3 Commando Brigade and the guns of their supporting artillery regiment, 29 Commando RA, plus senior staffs – around 2,000 men and women in all – represented the Senior Service.
Elements of four FAA squadrons? From the description that would be 815 NAS with Wildcat HM2 aboard the frigates, 847 NAS with Jungly Wildcat AH1s aboard Prince of Wales, either 845 NAS or 846 NAS aboard (somewhere - ????) with Merlin HC4, and Merlin HM2 aboard Prince of Wales. How many HM2s though - and from what unit? If we imagine it was a couple, and that a pair of Pingers were aboard Prince of Wales, then that means nine Merlin HM2s were embarked aboard the carriers, therefore if all nine were aboard the same carrier, that means six could be used for ASW and the three Crowsnest aircraft could concentrate on AEW.
Elements of four FAA squadrons? From the description that would be 815 NAS with Wildcat HM2 aboard the frigates, 847 NAS with Jungly Wildcat AH1s aboard Prince of Wales, either 845 NAS or 846 NAS aboard (somewhere - ????) with Merlin HC4, and Merlin HM2 aboard Prince of Wales. How many HM2s though - and from what unit? If we imagine it was a couple, and that a pair of Pingers were aboard Prince of Wales, then that means nine Merlin HM2s were embarked aboard the carriers, therefore if all nine were aboard the same carrier, that means six could be used for ASW and the three Crowsnest aircraft could concentrate on AEW.
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ASW helicopters are critically important - since the late 1950s they have been the primary surface fleet weapon against the enemy submarine, and taking them to sea has been a carrier role. It was that role that saved the day in the late 1960s and early 1970s after the debacle of CVA-01 and staff work based on possible operations outside of the NATO area. The need to take up to ten ASW Sea Kings resulted in a large deck design that could be modified to carry V/STOL aircraft. The Invincible class CVS carried nine ASW Sea Kings, although in addition to ASW (and surface search) the Pingers also did utility roles like HDS and VERTREP, and when fixed wing flying was taking place one was kept at standby for SAR - parked next to the ramp. When the Merlin replaced the Sea King in the CVS based carrier role, the normal squadron size was six. The Merlin had greater endurance (five hours instead of four) and a SAR/utility Sea King was frequently embarked.
Air defence sorties were part of the CVF specification - I presume ASW ones were as well. One of the key technological developments in the 1980s was towed array sonar (either frigate or submarine), which changed ASW helicopter employment. Post 2000 the advent of Low Frequency Active Sonar has brought the ASW helicopter back to the fore, as well changing how they are employed.
On several occasions, HMS Queen Elizabeth has put to sea with 820 NAS providing a complement of six Merlin HM2s - which I roughly assed could provide the same coverage as a squadron of nine Sea Kings that were also doing utility and SAR roles. Jungly Merlin HC4s have sometimes performed these roles, allowing 820 to focus on the course ASW role, working with the frigates. For the CSG21 deployment, 820 took seven Merlin HM2s, but three of these were adapted for Crowsnest. I assume that this is modular and could be removed and the ASW equipment reinstalled fairly quickly if the situation demanded, but a couple of extra non Crowsnest aircraft would help with ASW capability. For whatever reason, the Merlin HC4s (three of them) were embarked about RFA Fort Victoria. The CO of 820 stated that he could fly 24 hours a day and provide between two and three lines with seven cabs.
If a pair of Merlin HM2s were aboard HMS Prince of Wales for the recent Joint Warrior exercises, after which she was declared to be operational, that that means we can deploy nine Merlins aboard the carrier in future - particularly on deployments nearer to home. That would been six Merlins could concentrate of ASW, and three Crowsnest aircraft could stay in that role all the time. I suspect we have promised something like that to NATO, as well as Prince of Wales assuming the role of NATO Response Force flagship. We would expect other nations to contribute frigates, destroyers, submarines, maybe the odd tanker, and of course helicopters for ASW/ASuW/etc. The carrier can and will take control and coordinate all the aircraft within a task group, and she will also control the activities of all the submarines as well as surface warships.
It is sometimes overlooked that First World War carrier development (by the RN) was driven largely by the need to launch fighters at short notice to intercept Zeppelins, and that in the Second Would War the carrier was critical in defending merchant convoys or troop movements against U boat and aircraft attack. During the Cold War and in places like the Falklands (during the 1982 conflict), the aircraft carrier was first and foremost a platform for sea control.
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Talking of ASW - ASW would have been part of Exercise Steadfast Defender at the start of the CSG21 deployment, and later Russian submarines were tracked by the frigates and Merlins in the Mediterranean, but I am sure that the CSG21 deployment was going to include an ASW exercise somewhere in the Indo-Pacific? Maybe it slipped under the radar, or has not yet happened.
I imagine that ASW capabilities will be of interest to allies like Oman in the face of the Iranian submarine threat,
Carrier Strike Group Looks Forward to a Busy Autumn in Indo-Pacific and Middle East
I imagine that ASW capabilities will be of interest to allies like Oman in the face of the Iranian submarine threat,
Carrier Strike Group Looks Forward to a Busy Autumn in Indo-Pacific and Middle East
Interesting - two points
1. "Secondly, finding sufficient manpower was deemed a major problem – it was unclear where the RN would find the nearly 1000 extra people from to crew the ship, and it was suggested that at least three frigates would need to be paid off to make this happen." - somethings never change
2. Absolutely no mention of the political angle - a Labour Govt., intent on cutting defence costs and giving up the East of Suez role and US carriers? I really don't think that was ever on. But then the military at the time seem to have been oblivious to the whole political world
1. "Secondly, finding sufficient manpower was deemed a major problem – it was unclear where the RN would find the nearly 1000 extra people from to crew the ship, and it was suggested that at least three frigates would need to be paid off to make this happen." - somethings never change
2. Absolutely no mention of the political angle - a Labour Govt., intent on cutting defence costs and giving up the East of Suez role and US carriers? I really don't think that was ever on. But then the military at the time seem to have been oblivious to the whole political world
I thought the idea of the leasing of the Shangri-La was to replace HMS Hermes, which had after trials been deemed unsuitable for the future operation of the F-4 due to it being too small, as only Ark and Eagle were suitable.
So, Hermes would would have got the chop instead, and we'd still have had the 3 proposed carriers, although I think it would have been more than 1000 extra reqd to crew it, as Hermes was 2100 crew and USS Shangri-La was almost 3500.
Of course, as mentioned in the OP, only Ark ever carried the F-4 with the better condition Eagle getting the chop, and Hermes continuing on into the post cat n trap era.
So, Hermes would would have got the chop instead, and we'd still have had the 3 proposed carriers, although I think it would have been more than 1000 extra reqd to crew it, as Hermes was 2100 crew and USS Shangri-La was almost 3500.
Of course, as mentioned in the OP, only Ark ever carried the F-4 with the better condition Eagle getting the chop, and Hermes continuing on into the post cat n trap era.
I'm pretty sure the Essex class never operated the F4 either. Part of the rationale for not reactivating Bon Homme Richard and Oriskany as part of the Lehman 600 ship navy plan in 1980 was that they would have needed the F8 as their fighter asset.
I suspect the recovery envelope for an F4 on that deck would have been limited to say the least.
I suspect the recovery envelope for an F4 on that deck would have been limited to say the least.
There was an article in the Telegraph in the mid-80s stating that both of those had been offered to the RN around that time, or possibly in the Falklands -era, but I've never found any confirmation of that.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Reference the F-4 and the Essex class. They could, apparently, operate the F-4B (flight trials conducted from the USS Intrpid). The F-4K would, presumably, have had even more margin.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...45/post-124408
..While the RAN was benchmarking on an Oriskany type upgraded Essex they were looking at further improvements. This included 250’ catapults in place of the 211’ and SPS-48 3D radar in place of SPS-30 height finding radar. It stands to reason that the landing on deck could be modified to provide additional run out length.
The Australian Essex (HMAS Australia) would have a very different air wing to USN Oriskany class. It would include 16 Phantom strike fighters, 12 Tracker ASW aircraft, 4 Tracer AEW aircraft, 16 Wessex ASW helicopters and 2 Whirlwind SAR helicopters…..
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...45/post-124408
..While the RAN was benchmarking on an Oriskany type upgraded Essex they were looking at further improvements. This included 250’ catapults in place of the 211’ and SPS-48 3D radar in place of SPS-30 height finding radar. It stands to reason that the landing on deck could be modified to provide additional run out length.
The Australian Essex (HMAS Australia) would have a very different air wing to USN Oriskany class. It would include 16 Phantom strike fighters, 12 Tracker ASW aircraft, 4 Tracer AEW aircraft, 16 Wessex ASW helicopters and 2 Whirlwind SAR helicopters…..
Reference the F-4 and the Essex class. They could, apparently, operate the F-4B (flight trials conducted from the USS Intrpid). The F-4K would, presumably, have had even more margin.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...45/post-124408
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...45/post-124408
That recovery deck in SCB125 configuration looks very short for a beast like the F4........
Suspicion breeds confidence
They were considered to be marginal for front line fixed wing ops and their somewhat large crew for a limited capability was not considered economic. Hence the CVS conversion for some. I don't think they would be very popular with the navy. USN crew accommodation was basic even by RN standards of the time.
Therein lies another potential drawback - the cost and time of altering them to RN standards.....................
Suspicion breeds confidence
I've seen a pic of Hermes with a white USN F4 on deck which surprised me more than a little. Someone later pointed out that it was actually a touch and go. I can't imagine Hermes ever operating an F4 although an F18 might have been interesting.
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They were considered to be marginal for front line fixed wing ops and their somewhat large crew for a limited capability was not considered economic. Hence the CVS conversion for some. I don't think they would be very popular with the navy. USN crew accommodation was basic even by RN standards of the time.
Originally Posted by Navaleye
I've seen a pic of Hermes with a white USN F4 on deck which surprised me more than a little. Someone later pointed out that it was actually a touch and go. I can't imagine Hermes ever operating an F4 although an F18 might have been interesting.
Anyway - back to banging my head on the bulkhead. People read 'Carrier Strike' and think it means (ground) attack only! I have looked up the KURs for CVF/QEC, and there is no specific mention of ASW - or indeed Air Defence. However, this paper from a few years ago has an interesting definition of Carrier Enabled Power Projection:
Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers - Air Maritime Integration - Captain Nick Walker RN - August 2016
An integrated and sustainable joint capability, interoperable with NATO, that enables the projection of UK Carrier Strike and Littoral Manoeuvre power as well as delivering humanitarian assistance and defence diplomacy, enabling joint effect across the maritime, land and air environments at a time and place of political choosing.
Presumably this includes both Air Defence and ASW? The document also states that part of the C2 capability is to support ASW and that the magazine is designed for ASW weapons well as those for the jets.
Also - from page 14-3 of the US Naval Flight Surgeon's Manal - Third edition - 1991.
Six of the 15 currently commissioned carriers are CVN’s. All 15 support antisubmarine warfare (ASW) operations with at least one ASW helicopter squadron and a fixed wing ASW squadron aboard, as well as serving the more traditional roles of fleet air defense and attack missions (bombing). Most carrier air wings (CVW’s) are configured with nine squadrons and a detachment of photo reconnaissance aircraft. Carriers defend themselves with their speed (in excess of 28 knots), with missile batteries of surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles (point defense), and with the extended umbrella of carrier air wing fighters performing barrier or force combat air patrols (BARCAP and FORECAP) at some distance from the ship.
Configured as an attack ASW carrier, the various missions of the aircraft carrier become more apparent. Conceptually, the carrier encompasses both tactical and strategic defensive and offensive capabilities. Offensively, it can wage conventional or nuclear war or deter such warfare by its presence. It attracts military attention wherever it goes, thus diverting potential military offensive resources that could be employed elsewhere. It serves as an integrating vehicle for surface warships in company, aircraft deployed overhead, and attack submarines working below. Combining the advantages of each of the air, surface, and subsurface capabilities, threats can be neutralized quickly to both tactical and strategic advantage. This three-dimensional coverage for fleet offense and defense, coupled with modern electronic hardware and software technology, provides an unparalleled tactical and strategic capability.
Think how much communications and computer technology has advanced since 1991, and how low frequency active sonar has changed the frigate/ASW helicopter relationship.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 20th Oct 2021 at 21:10.
Does anyone know if the RN Phantom ever operated off the deck of Hermes? Tere are reports of 'trials' in 1969/70, and a famous photo of a Phantom overflying Hermes, but I can't find anything that says they actually touched down.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-mi...e-f-4-phantoms
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...ms-eagle-67162
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...ms-eagle-67162
Last edited by ORAC; 21st Oct 2021 at 05:53.
"All 15 support antisubmarine warfare (ASW) operations with at least one ASW helicopter squadron and a fixed wing ASW squadron aboard, "
that was 30 years ago WEBF - times change
that was 30 years ago WEBF - times change
While the studies said the F4 "could" operate from Hermes, I suspect the operational window would have been tiny. You'd need max chat to get the most WoD and in any sort of seaway, a relatively small short ship like Hermes is going to have a lot of movement at both the rounddown and the touchdown point, which even with a 4 degree glideslope is going to result in a lot of long traps or bolters.
So while the cats probably had enough oomph, trapping on an operational (as opposed to trials) basis would have been very tricky.