Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Going to need a bigger catapult Beagle.................
News from the MoD
Delighted to see that, although HMS Prince of Wales is still busy baling out in Pompey, at least her ATCPFA* is fully operational. I hope the minister was duly impressed.
airsound
* Advanced tactical cocktail party functional area
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace today hosted Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar on board the UK’s aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales.
airsound
* Advanced tactical cocktail party functional area
Thread Starter
UK MoD announces that the Royal Netherlands Navy frigate HNLMS Evertsen will join the UK Carrier Strike Group for the duration of its inaugural deployment – from the North Atlantic, through to the Mediterranean, Indian Ocean and on to the Indo-Pacific.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...nt=immediately
airsound
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...nt=immediately
airsound
The strike group will undertake a range of operations and training with allies and partners, including maritime missions with NATO in the Mediterranean and Coalition operations in the Middle East.
Whilst mentioning the MOD news story about the Turkish Defence Minister being hosted aboard HMS Prince of Wales, you forgot this bit:
Turkey is an important NATO Ally and partner for the UK in upholding security in the Mediterranean and Black Sea regions.
Join the dots. By the way I believe that both carriers are pretty much ready for sea, having had modifications to prevent problems with flooding. HMS Queen Elizabeth has also had a number of new systems fitted, including close range weapons and Deployable Mission Rehearsal Trainers:
"sTurkey is an important NATO Ally and partner for the UK in upholding security in the Mediterranean and Black Sea regions."
Over the past few years I'm not sure the Americans would agree WEBF -canceled their subscription to the F35 remember after they bought Russian?
Over the past few years I'm not sure the Americans would agree WEBF -canceled their subscription to the F35 remember after they bought Russian?
WEBF - many thanks for reminding me of the frailty of my memory.
and
But for once, I actually didn’t. Rather than quoting the whole lengthy news release on each occasion, I merely quoted the bits I thought were noteworthy. I thought having the Royal Netherlands Navy along was interesting - but that HMLZ working with NATO allies and the Coalition was less surprising.
Equally, I imagine the news that Turkey is an important ally would not come as a surprise to most PPRuNers - although in that respect I’m inclined to agree with Asturias.
Now, I did forget something on another thread, but I’m apologising for that. And I suspect it won’t be the last. So feel free to keep me up to the mark when I do actually forget. Just not on this occasion.
airsound
You forgot this bit from the link:
you forgot this bit:
Equally, I imagine the news that Turkey is an important ally would not come as a surprise to most PPRuNers - although in that respect I’m inclined to agree with Asturias.
Now, I did forget something on another thread, but I’m apologising for that. And I suspect it won’t be the last. So feel free to keep me up to the mark when I do actually forget. Just not on this occasion.
airsound
Of course there's another explanation
turkey is a major ship-breaking location - maybe the Turkish Defence Minster was over to negotiate a price for all the escorts the RN is about to lay off (which is crazy IMHO)
turkey is a major ship-breaking location - maybe the Turkish Defence Minster was over to negotiate a price for all the escorts the RN is about to lay off (which is crazy IMHO)
Thread Starter
Airsound
Fair enough - but given all the talk of deploying the carrier group to the Far East I thought it worth mentioning the way the deployment will include NATO activities and coalition operations in the Middle East. By the way, HMS Prince of Wales will soon return to sea.
Watch this space!
A56
Actually we are only losing two - fewer than many predicted. HMS Monmouth has been in a state of very low readiness for a while now, awaiting refit with many systems stripped for spares and a skeleton crew. HMS Montrose is currently forward deployed in the Middle East and will not return to the UK for some time - next year I think. It is sad to see them go, but better to put the money into keeping the rest of the Type 23s going (in some cases until the middle of the next decade), and recruiting more people.
I would not be surprised if one of them is not used as a static training vessel in the same way that HMS Bristol was for many years.
Fair enough - but given all the talk of deploying the carrier group to the Far East I thought it worth mentioning the way the deployment will include NATO activities and coalition operations in the Middle East. By the way, HMS Prince of Wales will soon return to sea.
Watch this space!
A56
Actually we are only losing two - fewer than many predicted. HMS Monmouth has been in a state of very low readiness for a while now, awaiting refit with many systems stripped for spares and a skeleton crew. HMS Montrose is currently forward deployed in the Middle East and will not return to the UK for some time - next year I think. It is sad to see them go, but better to put the money into keeping the rest of the Type 23s going (in some cases until the middle of the next decade), and recruiting more people.
I would not be surprised if one of them is not used as a static training vessel in the same way that HMS Bristol was for many years.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 12th Apr 2021 at 22:46.
Thread Starter
Some of you might be interested in a couple of discussions over on ARRSE:
The first is about the development of the aircraft carrier in the First World War. Putting seaplanes into the water took time, and often damaged the aircraft on landing. Launching them from a flying off deck or from a platform on a ship's bow allowed aircraft to be launched rapidly, but recovering them aboard a moving ship proved to be very challenging. Initially the tried to use the same flying off deck that had been built on the forecastle of HMS Furious, but it needed the aircraft to be pulled down and restrained. Squadron Commander Edwin Dunning did ;and aboard her in 1917, be he was killed in a repeat attempt. It has been shown that a landing deck was needed - so Furious was refitted again Later work and trials on the Isle of Grain also developed arrestor equipment.
It was found that landing was very difficult, Despite this operational sorties were flown, and further experimentation at the National Physics Laboratoryshowed that the bridge disrupted airflow. The solution was to have a flush deck - which HMS Argus had when she was commissioned just after the armistice.
The Evolution of the Aircraft Carrier - up to 1918
The second is about things still in living memory - the Second World War. What was a simple tribute to the Swordfish crews from 825 NAS who died during the 'Channel Dash', it soon turned a wider discussion of the aircraft carriers and the Fleet Air Arm from 1938 to 1945.Huge problems were caused by the was naval aviation had been largely under RAF control until 1937, as were things like aircraft procurement, weapon development, tactics, and training - lessons for today and the last decade or so?
Despite that our carriers operated in every theatre that the RN did, with escort carriers providing vital defence against enemy aircraft and U boats for the Atlantic and Arctic convoys, and carrerborne fighters and attack aircraft playing a vital role in the Mediterranean and later the Far East. There were things which seem familiar today, such as fighters being controlled by anti aircraft cruisers which would them shoot and enemy aircraft the fighters did not get. Just as fighters being controlled by shipborne controllers via radio using radar information is in many ways similar to modern operations, the use of radar equipped Swordfish ahead of a convoy and being cued by ships proving long range detection with HF/DF (High Frequency Direction Finding) is not dissimilar to the ASW operations of today, with frigates providing long range detection and helicopters providing localisation and attack.
The Anniversary of The Channel Dash - 1942 - and the wider RN Fleet Air Arm during the Second World War
The first is about the development of the aircraft carrier in the First World War. Putting seaplanes into the water took time, and often damaged the aircraft on landing. Launching them from a flying off deck or from a platform on a ship's bow allowed aircraft to be launched rapidly, but recovering them aboard a moving ship proved to be very challenging. Initially the tried to use the same flying off deck that had been built on the forecastle of HMS Furious, but it needed the aircraft to be pulled down and restrained. Squadron Commander Edwin Dunning did ;and aboard her in 1917, be he was killed in a repeat attempt. It has been shown that a landing deck was needed - so Furious was refitted again Later work and trials on the Isle of Grain also developed arrestor equipment.
It was found that landing was very difficult, Despite this operational sorties were flown, and further experimentation at the National Physics Laboratoryshowed that the bridge disrupted airflow. The solution was to have a flush deck - which HMS Argus had when she was commissioned just after the armistice.
The Evolution of the Aircraft Carrier - up to 1918
The second is about things still in living memory - the Second World War. What was a simple tribute to the Swordfish crews from 825 NAS who died during the 'Channel Dash', it soon turned a wider discussion of the aircraft carriers and the Fleet Air Arm from 1938 to 1945.Huge problems were caused by the was naval aviation had been largely under RAF control until 1937, as were things like aircraft procurement, weapon development, tactics, and training - lessons for today and the last decade or so?
Despite that our carriers operated in every theatre that the RN did, with escort carriers providing vital defence against enemy aircraft and U boats for the Atlantic and Arctic convoys, and carrerborne fighters and attack aircraft playing a vital role in the Mediterranean and later the Far East. There were things which seem familiar today, such as fighters being controlled by anti aircraft cruisers which would them shoot and enemy aircraft the fighters did not get. Just as fighters being controlled by shipborne controllers via radio using radar information is in many ways similar to modern operations, the use of radar equipped Swordfish ahead of a convoy and being cued by ships proving long range detection with HF/DF (High Frequency Direction Finding) is not dissimilar to the ASW operations of today, with frigates providing long range detection and helicopters providing localisation and attack.
The Anniversary of The Channel Dash - 1942 - and the wider RN Fleet Air Arm during the Second World War
Lyneham Lad posted this in the thread about E Europe - when the T45 and the T23 "peel-off" from the Carrier Group to go to the Black Sea what is going to replace them?
Article in The Sunday Times:-
British warships head for Black Sea as Russian troops mass on Ukrainian border
Quote:
Royal Navy warships will sail for the Black Sea next month as tensions continue to rise between Ukrainian and Russian forces.
Putting the ships off the coast of Ukraine is intended to show solidarity with Kiev and Nato allies in the region after the President Biden decided to cancel the deployment of two American warships to the Black Sea last week for fear of escalating the crisis over the massing of Russian troops.
One Type 45 destroyer armed with anti-aircraft missiles and an anti-submarine Type 23 frigate will peel off from the Royal Navy’s carrier task group in the Mediterranean and head through the Bosphorus into the Black Sea, according to senior naval sources.
RAF F-35B Lightning stealth jets and Merlin submarine-hunting helicopters are to stand ready on the task group’s flag ship, the carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth, to support the warships in the Black Sea should they be threatened by Russian warships, submarines or aircraft. HMS Queen Elizabeth has to stay in the Mediterranean because an international treaty prohibits aircraft carriers from entering the Black Sea.
The Royal Navy announced in February, before the current crisis, that the carrier’s supporting warships and aircraft would carry out the missions into the Black Sea as part of HMS Queen Elizabeth’s deployment to the Far East. The Ministry of Defence confirmed on Friday that the naval foray would go ahead despite the US decision to keep its warships out of the crisis zone.
“Operational planning continues and this still includes the Black Sea activity,” said a senior defence source. “The US decision will have no bearing on Carrier Strike Group’s 2021 plans.”
This apparent divergence between London and Washington follows the admission on Friday by General Sir Nick Carter, chief of defence staff, that the British government disagreed with Biden’s decision to withdraw all US and Nato troops from Afghanistan by September.
Tension has been rising since Moscow ordered a troop build-up near Ukraine’s eastern border late last month. Russian and Ukrainian gunboats were involved in a stand-off near the Crimean coast on Thursday.
RAF RC-135 Rivet Joint eavesdropping aircraft have flown eight missions over Ukraine to monitor Russian military communications since the start of the month. Four RAF Typhoon fighter jets will fly to Romania from RAF Lossiemouth this week to take part in Nato air policing patrols over the Black Sea, and hundreds of soldiers will head to Ukraine in the summer for a joint exercise, dubbed Cossack Mace, with the country’s border guard paramilitary force.
Article in The Sunday Times:-
British warships head for Black Sea as Russian troops mass on Ukrainian border
Quote:
Royal Navy warships will sail for the Black Sea next month as tensions continue to rise between Ukrainian and Russian forces.
Putting the ships off the coast of Ukraine is intended to show solidarity with Kiev and Nato allies in the region after the President Biden decided to cancel the deployment of two American warships to the Black Sea last week for fear of escalating the crisis over the massing of Russian troops.
One Type 45 destroyer armed with anti-aircraft missiles and an anti-submarine Type 23 frigate will peel off from the Royal Navy’s carrier task group in the Mediterranean and head through the Bosphorus into the Black Sea, according to senior naval sources.
RAF F-35B Lightning stealth jets and Merlin submarine-hunting helicopters are to stand ready on the task group’s flag ship, the carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth, to support the warships in the Black Sea should they be threatened by Russian warships, submarines or aircraft. HMS Queen Elizabeth has to stay in the Mediterranean because an international treaty prohibits aircraft carriers from entering the Black Sea.
The Royal Navy announced in February, before the current crisis, that the carrier’s supporting warships and aircraft would carry out the missions into the Black Sea as part of HMS Queen Elizabeth’s deployment to the Far East. The Ministry of Defence confirmed on Friday that the naval foray would go ahead despite the US decision to keep its warships out of the crisis zone.
“Operational planning continues and this still includes the Black Sea activity,” said a senior defence source. “The US decision will have no bearing on Carrier Strike Group’s 2021 plans.”
This apparent divergence between London and Washington follows the admission on Friday by General Sir Nick Carter, chief of defence staff, that the British government disagreed with Biden’s decision to withdraw all US and Nato troops from Afghanistan by September.
Tension has been rising since Moscow ordered a troop build-up near Ukraine’s eastern border late last month. Russian and Ukrainian gunboats were involved in a stand-off near the Crimean coast on Thursday.
RAF RC-135 Rivet Joint eavesdropping aircraft have flown eight missions over Ukraine to monitor Russian military communications since the start of the month. Four RAF Typhoon fighter jets will fly to Romania from RAF Lossiemouth this week to take part in Nato air policing patrols over the Black Sea, and hundreds of soldiers will head to Ukraine in the summer for a joint exercise, dubbed Cossack Mace, with the country’s border guard paramilitary force.
The other Type 45 and the other Type 23, along with participating foreign escorts?
I presumed they'd be replacing the ones on detachment - and that almost certainly means non RN vessels as there just aren't any spare locally I bet
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The escorts will be pealing off to do local exercises right through the deployment. This just happens to present this type of opportunity. I imagine they will be in and out within a week while the rest of the task group exercises with other NATO vessels in the med.
Thread Starter
To quote the Times article: ...F-35B Lightning stealth jets and Merlin submarine-hunting helicopters are to stand ready on the task group’s flag ship, the carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth, to support the warships in the Black Sea should they be threatened by Russian warships, submarines or aircraft.
A naval task group is comprised of ships than can change position all the time. During the Falklands conflict groups of frigates and destroyers were detached from the main body of the force for things such as naval gunfire support, submarine hunting (alongside carrier based Sea Kings), and supporting special forces. The comment that the Type 23 and Type 45 sent into the Black Sea could be supported by F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlins from HMS Queen Elizabeth actually makes a nice change from the media always assuming that the task group exists solely to defend the carrier, and so do her aircraft. The Type 45 will control aircraft flying air defence sorties and the frigate will cue and work with the Merlin HM2s from the carrier.
To that end:
A naval task group is comprised of ships than can change position all the time. During the Falklands conflict groups of frigates and destroyers were detached from the main body of the force for things such as naval gunfire support, submarine hunting (alongside carrier based Sea Kings), and supporting special forces. The comment that the Type 23 and Type 45 sent into the Black Sea could be supported by F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlins from HMS Queen Elizabeth actually makes a nice change from the media always assuming that the task group exists solely to defend the carrier, and so do her aircraft. The Type 45 will control aircraft flying air defence sorties and the frigate will cue and work with the Merlin HM2s from the carrier.
To that end:
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 23rd Apr 2021 at 15:53.
WEBF - to "support" operations in the Black Sea the F-35's etc will have to overfly Turkey from the carrier in the Aegean... what if they say no?
@WEBF:
I think you'll find that either it "comprises ships that can ..." or "is composed of ships that can". Even as a WE they taught you English, surely?
A naval task group is comprised of ships than can change position all the time.
...
^^^ Wot Asturias said ^^^
One of the (six) Black Sea Fleet Kilos will have surfaced within range, given them the bird and disappeared back into its black hole before any distant support could arrive. Even if no threats were issued and no shots were fired, it would have the potential to be publicly embarrassing and enormously demoralising.
CSG assets would likely be distracted by or pre-occupied with the Kilo(s) from Tartus. Does Blackadder have a cunning plan ?
LFH
...
^^^ Wot Asturias said ^^^
One of the (six) Black Sea Fleet Kilos will have surfaced within range, given them the bird and disappeared back into its black hole before any distant support could arrive. Even if no threats were issued and no shots were fired, it would have the potential to be publicly embarrassing and enormously demoralising.
CSG assets would likely be distracted by or pre-occupied with the Kilo(s) from Tartus. Does Blackadder have a cunning plan ?
LFH
...
Thread Starter
A56/Lordflasheart
I was making the point that the writer seems to have finally accepted that carrier based aircraft often support other forces - such as detached ships doing ASW, a force clearing mines, amphibious forces, logistics shipping. This was intended as a general point, but one very relevant within the NATO sphere. The Black Sea is a very unlikely theatre for carrier operations, due to geographical constraints, and the Montreux convention. However, the Black Sea is only part of the Mediterranean region. As you note, there are assets based in Syria to be kept an eye on. We do not know exactly what exercises and operations the CSG21 group will participate in.
idle bystander
'comprised of' is considered acceptable usage by the Oxford English Dictionary, and has been used by writers of note for centuries.
I was making the point that the writer seems to have finally accepted that carrier based aircraft often support other forces - such as detached ships doing ASW, a force clearing mines, amphibious forces, logistics shipping. This was intended as a general point, but one very relevant within the NATO sphere. The Black Sea is a very unlikely theatre for carrier operations, due to geographical constraints, and the Montreux convention. However, the Black Sea is only part of the Mediterranean region. As you note, there are assets based in Syria to be kept an eye on. We do not know exactly what exercises and operations the CSG21 group will participate in.
idle bystander
'comprised of' is considered acceptable usage by the Oxford English Dictionary, and has been used by writers of note for centuries.
""The comment that the Type 23 and Type 45 sent into the Black Sea could be supported by F-35B Lightnings and ASW Merlins from HMS Queen Elizabethactually makes a nice change"
Sorry to be pedantic but you say the ships in the Black Sea will supported by F35's etc from the QE - but you haven't said how this is possible if Turkey says no to overflights
Sorry to be pedantic but you say the ships in the Black Sea will supported by F35's etc from the QE - but you haven't said how this is possible if Turkey says no to overflights
...
^^^ Wot Asturias said ^^^
Actually it was the talented Mr Ripley who initially articulated the idea of CSG backup (from a distance of 500 miles plus.) Even if fully-armed dip clearance had been pre-arranged, it would take an hour or more for Dave to arrive at the nightmare scene of the crime. To find what ? DIW at best and two big oil slicks at worst. The organic Merlins would be trying to find dry land and the backup helos would be out of fuel on arrival.
If you google Tim Ripley who penned the jingoistic bit in the Sunday Times, he offers his email address for anyone wishing to correspond with him. Ask him how he thinks playing tag with three or four Kilos would end up.
The Cousins have realised there is a sensible way to avoid all this.
LFH
...
^^^ Wot Asturias said ^^^
Actually it was the talented Mr Ripley who initially articulated the idea of CSG backup (from a distance of 500 miles plus.) Even if fully-armed dip clearance had been pre-arranged, it would take an hour or more for Dave to arrive at the nightmare scene of the crime. To find what ? DIW at best and two big oil slicks at worst. The organic Merlins would be trying to find dry land and the backup helos would be out of fuel on arrival.
If you google Tim Ripley who penned the jingoistic bit in the Sunday Times, he offers his email address for anyone wishing to correspond with him. Ask him how he thinks playing tag with three or four Kilos would end up.
The Cousins have realised there is a sensible way to avoid all this.
LFH
...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Asturias56,
They could route via Greece and refuel and hold ground alert in Romania - the RAF currently has a Typhoon detachment providing QRA fighter cover out of Mihail Kogalniceanu airbase which, presumably, could assist.
They could route via Greece and refuel and hold ground alert in Romania - the RAF currently has a Typhoon detachment providing QRA fighter cover out of Mihail Kogalniceanu airbase which, presumably, could assist.