Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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One of the benefits of the Mil Aviation section of Prune is that it provides the public with a comprehensive 50 year history of MOD procurement cock ups which have wasted £ Billions for little benefit other than to the shareholders of the military industrial complex and of course the recruitment/reward of retired officers and civil servants who were strangely offered defence consultancy jobs with contractors despite CVs chock full of poor procurement decisions which damaged the fighting efficiency of HM Armed Forces. Strange world.
Thread Starter
I see that nobody has commented on the late seventies US Congress report on Sea Control in the Atlantic.
Then, as now, NATO was divided by a large Ocean, and things such as reinforcement convoys and amphibious forces would be at risk of Soviet (and Warsaw Pact?) air and submarine attack. This drove NATO and UK weapon and platform development. A relatively recent (post 2000) development was the low frequency towed array sonar - which really needs to be used in conjunction with active dipping sonar - hence the Type 23 frigates that were refitted with 2087 sonar also received upgrades so they could operate the Merlin. However 24/7 dipping demands multiple aircraft, from a large deck.
I also started a thread to discuss it - here. Note the authoritative replies from ECMO1 - a former US Navy Naval Flight Officer with extensive carrier experience operating the EA-6B Prowler:
...the primary mission for the CV/CVN in the North Atlantic was not ASW (it was an additional role) but rather AAW to prevent the Backfire/Bears from attacking the convoys. The A-6/A-7s were the organic tankers to push the F-4/F-14 CAP stations out to a range to shoot the archer, not the arrows. Obviously, those roles swapped a bit when you started facing a surface threat or got close enough to land to start contemplating strikes against those Soviet Naval Air Arm airfields.
Defence in depth is for winners.
Then, as now, NATO was divided by a large Ocean, and things such as reinforcement convoys and amphibious forces would be at risk of Soviet (and Warsaw Pact?) air and submarine attack. This drove NATO and UK weapon and platform development. A relatively recent (post 2000) development was the low frequency towed array sonar - which really needs to be used in conjunction with active dipping sonar - hence the Type 23 frigates that were refitted with 2087 sonar also received upgrades so they could operate the Merlin. However 24/7 dipping demands multiple aircraft, from a large deck.
I also started a thread to discuss it - here. Note the authoritative replies from ECMO1 - a former US Navy Naval Flight Officer with extensive carrier experience operating the EA-6B Prowler:
...the primary mission for the CV/CVN in the North Atlantic was not ASW (it was an additional role) but rather AAW to prevent the Backfire/Bears from attacking the convoys. The A-6/A-7s were the organic tankers to push the F-4/F-14 CAP stations out to a range to shoot the archer, not the arrows. Obviously, those roles swapped a bit when you started facing a surface threat or got close enough to land to start contemplating strikes against those Soviet Naval Air Arm airfields.
Defence in depth is for winners.
I find it hard to believe we're talking about "convoys" steaming about the N Atlantic with conventional strike aircraft coming at them when the whole of Europe will be alight......
just about every war game and scenario I've ever heard of has N war breaking out in C Europe within a few days of the balloon going up
just about every war game and scenario I've ever heard of has N war breaking out in C Europe within a few days of the balloon going up
OK, its not directly aviation related, but its good to see the resurection of Appledore Shipbuilders' yard wihich built bow sections for both QNLZ and POW. Bought by InfraStrata who slso bought Harland and Wolff last year it will be interesting to see if they get any (sub-contracted) naval work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-53903667
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-53903667
Hmmm - they've said the problems were the previous owners were dependent on Military work but they'll build other thins - we shall see.... hopefully they won't be asking for a tax-payer subsidy as H&W always did
Thread Starter
In the past Appledore mainly did commercial work, things like ferries and chemical tankers which were sold to customers all over Europe and beyond.
Anyway, HMS Queen Elizabeth will soon be the centre of a NATO GROUPEX. I am not too sure how many many ASW Merlins she was carry, or jets, or what the exercise will involve, but this is the start of her contributing to national and NATO defence capability, and helping keep the peace by demonstrating capability.
Anyway, HMS Queen Elizabeth will soon be the centre of a NATO GROUPEX. I am not too sure how many many ASW Merlins she was carry, or jets, or what the exercise will involve, but this is the start of her contributing to national and NATO defence capability, and helping keep the peace by demonstrating capability.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 9th Sep 2020 at 18:17.
Thread Starter
They say a picture paints a thousand words. Whilst these two are not the best in terms of quality, they should make the point.
1. An illustration from a book, describing task group air defence/AAW. Whilst the distances stated are questionable, particularly as naval SAMs have longer ranges than when that book was written in the early nineties, and the range of a CAP station is given as 100 nm, it does prove a point. The blue area represents the area that can be defended by aircraft from the carrier. A similar thing applies to ASW protection involving carrier based aircraft.
Moving the battle outwards and defence in depth are for winners.
2. From the eighties periodical Warplane, a map of the GIUK gap and the Atlantic theatre. The text mentions particularly the role of the F-14 Tomcats and E-2 Hawkeyes aboard the American carriers, and the Sea Harriers and Sea Kings aboard the RN ones. The illustration includes all the US carrier based aircraft types, and our Sea Kings.
1. An illustration from a book, describing task group air defence/AAW. Whilst the distances stated are questionable, particularly as naval SAMs have longer ranges than when that book was written in the early nineties, and the range of a CAP station is given as 100 nm, it does prove a point. The blue area represents the area that can be defended by aircraft from the carrier. A similar thing applies to ASW protection involving carrier based aircraft.
Moving the battle outwards and defence in depth are for winners.
2. From the eighties periodical Warplane, a map of the GIUK gap and the Atlantic theatre. The text mentions particularly the role of the F-14 Tomcats and E-2 Hawkeyes aboard the American carriers, and the Sea Harriers and Sea Kings aboard the RN ones. The illustration includes all the US carrier based aircraft types, and our Sea Kings.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 2nd Sep 2020 at 08:12.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Moving the battle outwards and defence in depth are for winners.
Resurrect the ‘Outer-air’ Battle
The AMRAAM is no longer good enough to counter China’s antiship cruise missiles and growing naval warfare capabilities.
Thread Starter
Sorry for the delay in replying. Thank you for an interesting article. Cdr Watson is a former Naval Flight Officer on the F-4 Phantom and F-14 Tomcat mostly. He says much the same thing as the former USN NFO from the EA-6B that I quoted above.
The strategy was to have F-14 Tomcats armed with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles sitting on the threat’s weapon release line, thus forcing enemy units to fight through our F-14s to reach a launch point—i.e., “It’s easier to shoot the archer than his arrows.”
No shipborne weapon system can match the range of a fighter. If a successor to Phoenix had been developed, would the US Navy have not fitted it to the F/A-18D/F and F-35C (with a fit to the -B as the USMC may have to defend their expeditionary strike groups, ie amphibious forces)?
The strategy was to have F-14 Tomcats armed with Phoenix and Sparrow missiles sitting on the threat’s weapon release line, thus forcing enemy units to fight through our F-14s to reach a launch point—i.e., “It’s easier to shoot the archer than his arrows.”
No shipborne weapon system can match the range of a fighter. If a successor to Phoenix had been developed, would the US Navy have not fitted it to the F/A-18D/F and F-35C (with a fit to the -B as the USMC may have to defend their expeditionary strike groups, ie amphibious forces)?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...re-54064886The HMS Queen Elizabeth has postponed sailing from Portsmouth after crew members tested positive for Covid-19. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said the affected sailors - fewer than 10 in number - were isolating in barracks ashore. The aircraft carrier, which has a crew of 1,000, had been set to leave its base on Monday for training exercises. Sailors who had contact with their infected crewmates will isolate on board the £3bn vessel.
Thread Starter
She has put to sea:
In the old days, the Invincible class CVS normally operated nine ASW Sea Kings, but one of these was kept at readiness for SAR, and they also had to do things like VERTREP. After 2000, the Sea Kings were replaced by Merlins, with a Sea King doing utlity and SAR tasks. These days many of the SAR and utility taskings can be done by embarked Jungly HC4s, leaving the Merlin HM2 to concentrate on ASW. It has a greater range and endurance (five hours) than the old Sea King (about four hours) or indeed other current ASW helicopter types such as the MH-60R or the NH90.
820 NAS have got six cabs embarked. Somewhere I read that some elements of 824 NAS will join them. I imagine some Junglies will too.
In the old days, the Invincible class CVS normally operated nine ASW Sea Kings, but one of these was kept at readiness for SAR, and they also had to do things like VERTREP. After 2000, the Sea Kings were replaced by Merlins, with a Sea King doing utlity and SAR tasks. These days many of the SAR and utility taskings can be done by embarked Jungly HC4s, leaving the Merlin HM2 to concentrate on ASW. It has a greater range and endurance (five hours) than the old Sea King (about four hours) or indeed other current ASW helicopter types such as the MH-60R or the NH90.
820 NAS have got six cabs embarked. Somewhere I read that some elements of 824 NAS will join them. I imagine some Junglies will too.
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Only 15 F-35s? Well, 10 USMC F-35s arrived at RAF Marham, so how many from 617 Sqn? I was expecting about 20 or more to embark aboard HMS QNLZ...
International By Design - The Royal Navy and USMC F35 Embarkation
The Daily Mail has reported that the Royal Navy is looking at plans to deploy HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH to sea carrying more US than British F35 jets. This is reportedly due to the speed of planned procurement, and could see 20 US jets embarked to a smaller number of UK ones. This has led to criticism from MPs that the Royal Navy must not make the ship an multi-national one.
Is this reasonable, and is this something that people should be concerned about?
The plan for the carriers since their inception has been to build over a long period of time two aircraft carriers, supported by an F35 force, able to put to sea with supporting elements and deliver the Carrier Strike Group concept...
Is this reasonable, and is this something that people should be concerned about?
The plan for the carriers since their inception has been to build over a long period of time two aircraft carriers, supported by an F35 force, able to put to sea with supporting elements and deliver the Carrier Strike Group concept...
Last edited by FODPlod; 10th Sep 2020 at 10:54. Reason: Edited hyperlink.
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[QUOTE=FODPlod;10882196]Choose your news sources more carefully. All is explained here:
International By Design - The Royal Navy and USMC F35 Embarkation
[/QUOTE
Actually I didn't choose any news sources... I was merely replying to the post stating 15 F-35s would embark! I'm quite aware that our procurement of the F-35 would be quite slow as planned.
I believe RAF Marham have around 18 UK F-35s, So how many are they sending?
By the way, you should choose your news sources more carefully... The Daily Mail is not what I would call a "Careful Choice!"
International By Design - The Royal Navy and USMC F35 Embarkation
[/QUOTE
Actually I didn't choose any news sources... I was merely replying to the post stating 15 F-35s would embark! I'm quite aware that our procurement of the F-35 would be quite slow as planned.
I believe RAF Marham have around 18 UK F-35s, So how many are they sending?
By the way, you should choose your news sources more carefully... The Daily Mail is not what I would call a "Careful Choice!"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...ster-n2t6m3b8d
.....In a speech to the MoD’s air and space power conference, Mr Wallace said that Britain should learn from Turkey, which had harnessed armed drones, electronic warfare and “smart ammunition”........
Unmanned aviation was a central theme at the conference, as the RAF announced that it was trialling flying drones from aircraft carriers and Mr Wallace announced that he had signed a £65 million contract for its first three Protector drones. The government is set to buy 20 of the drones, which are armed with Hellfire missiles.....
.....In a speech to the MoD’s air and space power conference, Mr Wallace said that Britain should learn from Turkey, which had harnessed armed drones, electronic warfare and “smart ammunition”........
Unmanned aviation was a central theme at the conference, as the RAF announced that it was trialling flying drones from aircraft carriers and Mr Wallace announced that he had signed a £65 million contract for its first three Protector drones. The government is set to buy 20 of the drones, which are armed with Hellfire missiles.....
Choose your news sources more carefully. All is explained here:
International By Design - The Royal Navy and USMC F35 Embarkation
International By Design - The Royal Navy and USMC F35 Embarkation
I believe RAF Marham have around 18 UK F-35s, So how many are they sending?
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Seems to me someone has been reading too much Heinlein (rocks falling from space)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mo...Harsh_Mistress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mo...Harsh_Mistress
Last edited by Levelling_the_Land; 10th Sep 2020 at 20:27. Reason: Ambiguity
Thread Starter
Last week the Commons' Defence Committee looked into Carrier Strike and the F-35B. There is a two hour long video on YouTube. Here are some snippets via Twitter.
Captain Stembridge is a former Sea Harrier pilot, so he knows what is needed to keep the ship and aircrews up to speed. Some predicted a routine embarkation of twelve jets, and an increased number in a crisis. This is only possible with a STOVL carrier and a V/STOL aircraft.
Protecting convoys and sea lines of communication in the North Atlantic and elsewhere is back on the priority list. In addition to her own ASW helicopters, the carrier will direct the activities of those carried by other ships in the task group. Incidentally a WAFU told me that once the Merlin replaced the Sea King in the ASW role, six aircraft was the normal sqaudron size aboard the CVS, but with a Sea King for SAR etc. 820 are currently embarked with six cabs.
The GROUPEX is a demonstration of a capability we have promised to NATO, and is HMS Queen Elizabeth's first activity where she is contributing to defence missions of deterrence and reassurance.
Junglies will join 820 NAS and the jets - I assume the plan is to normally have them embarked. Two Jungly cabs are embarked at the moment.
Captain Stembridge is a former Sea Harrier pilot, so he knows what is needed to keep the ship and aircrews up to speed. Some predicted a routine embarkation of twelve jets, and an increased number in a crisis. This is only possible with a STOVL carrier and a V/STOL aircraft.
Protecting convoys and sea lines of communication in the North Atlantic and elsewhere is back on the priority list. In addition to her own ASW helicopters, the carrier will direct the activities of those carried by other ships in the task group. Incidentally a WAFU told me that once the Merlin replaced the Sea King in the ASW role, six aircraft was the normal sqaudron size aboard the CVS, but with a Sea King for SAR etc. 820 are currently embarked with six cabs.
The GROUPEX is a demonstration of a capability we have promised to NATO, and is HMS Queen Elizabeth's first activity where she is contributing to defence missions of deterrence and reassurance.
Junglies will join 820 NAS and the jets - I assume the plan is to normally have them embarked. Two Jungly cabs are embarked at the moment.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 21st Sep 2020 at 20:53.
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And let's not forget our past, two days ago the INS Viraat set sail on her final journey to the breakers... Farewell HMS Hermes, a long and illustrious career well served for both navies.