Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Thread Starter
On Flight Global - a useful addition to carrier defence...
Weapon wing integration keeps Wildcat on target for carrier protection role
Weapon wing integration keeps Wildcat on target for carrier protection role
Martlet has been fired from a frigate in an anti small craft role, so I expect (hope) that it will be fitted across the fleet, including the carriers.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
France buys 3 more E-2Ds for AEW cover. Fitted with probes for AAR.
A shame we are incapable of cross-decking.....
France cleared to buy 3 E-2Ds ? Alert 5
France cleared to buy 3 E-2Ds
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...port-equipment
A shame we are incapable of cross-decking.....
France cleared to buy 3 E-2Ds ? Alert 5
France cleared to buy 3 E-2Ds
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...port-equipment
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ORAC,
Actually, we are capable of cross decking. I understand that the 3rd US Marine Air Wing are going to embark in HMS Queen Elizabeth. That will be the most significant piece of US/UK 'cross decking' I can remember.
Best regards as ever to all those working their buns off at the front line to make this work...
Engines
Actually, we are capable of cross decking. I understand that the 3rd US Marine Air Wing are going to embark in HMS Queen Elizabeth. That will be the most significant piece of US/UK 'cross decking' I can remember.
Best regards as ever to all those working their buns off at the front line to make this work...
Engines
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ORAC,
I wouldn’t think so, sir .....I understand it may well be a substantial F-35B element. No details on any other aircraft included in this cross-decking effort, as far as I know yet.
Best regards as ever to all those good people doing the best they can with what they’ve got
Engines
I wouldn’t think so, sir .....I understand it may well be a substantial F-35B element. No details on any other aircraft included in this cross-decking effort, as far as I know yet.
Best regards as ever to all those good people doing the best they can with what they’ve got
Engines
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From the STRN report:
"Crowsnest will not formally achieve Initial Operating Capability until September 2021 but 3 of the 9 Merlins are planned to be fitted with pre-IOC standard kits. At least the CGS will have some kind of Airborne Surveillance and Control capability, even if not properly certified and complete. In a significant change of plan, 849 Naval Air Squadron, which had been the ASaC squadron equipped with Sea Kings and was supposed to transition to Crowsnest, was disbanded in April 2020. The role will now be absorbed into 820 NAS. The squadron will have two streams of observers that specialise in either, anti-submarine warfare or ASaC. The RN has just 30 Merlin Mk2 helicopters, airframes are in short supply."
"Crowsnest will not formally achieve Initial Operating Capability until September 2021 but 3 of the 9 Merlins are planned to be fitted with pre-IOC standard kits. At least the CGS will have some kind of Airborne Surveillance and Control capability, even if not properly certified and complete. In a significant change of plan, 849 Naval Air Squadron, which had been the ASaC squadron equipped with Sea Kings and was supposed to transition to Crowsnest, was disbanded in April 2020. The role will now be absorbed into 820 NAS. The squadron will have two streams of observers that specialise in either, anti-submarine warfare or ASaC. The RN has just 30 Merlin Mk2 helicopters, airframes are in short supply."
OWR - I noticed that too, an unsourced update to 849's wikipedia page suggest some personnel have gone to 814. I would assume this means 820 will have a SOBS(Baggers) and a SOBS(Pingers) to provide leadership for each speciality. I suppose it makes sense when the airframe is common and (theoretically?) can switch roles. Will be interesting to see if the cab drivers are assigned to an ASAC flight or fly cross role - fixed crews would perhaps make more sense but may be there are pressing reasons not to.
I can't find any official public announcement of 849's disbandment or the additional role for 820 but I would assume STRN's source is correct - the RN website still has 849 as in training but as they don't mention 744 NAS I assume the FAA section isn't updated very often..
I can't find any official public announcement of 849's disbandment or the additional role for 820 but I would assume STRN's source is correct - the RN website still has 849 as in training but as they don't mention 744 NAS I assume the FAA section isn't updated very often..
Last edited by SLXOwft; 10th Jul 2020 at 17:56. Reason: Correction re 814 NAS
It was announced about a month ago in JNI, which also stated 849 decommissioned in April.
Suspect it's to maximise output of AE rather than have a full squadron set-up but only a few cabs. I'd be surprised if they didn't stick with "formed" crews, maybe as a "Flight" within 820. ASaC profile and tactics will be very different from ASW.
Suspect it's to maximise output of AE rather than have a full squadron set-up but only a few cabs. I'd be surprised if they didn't stick with "formed" crews, maybe as a "Flight" within 820. ASaC profile and tactics will be very different from ASW.
From the STRN report:
"Crowsnest will not formally achieve Initial Operating Capability until September 2021 but 3 of the 9 Merlins are planned to be fitted with pre-IOC standard kits. At least the CGS will have some kind of Airborne Surveillance and Control capability, even if not properly certified and complete. In a significant change of plan, 849 Naval Air Squadron, which had been the ASaC squadron equipped with Sea Kings and was supposed to transition to Crowsnest, was disbanded in April 2020. The role will now be absorbed into 820 NAS. The squadron will have two streams of observers that specialise in either, anti-submarine warfare or ASaC. The RN has just 30 Merlin Mk2 helicopters, airframes are in short supply."
"Crowsnest will not formally achieve Initial Operating Capability until September 2021 but 3 of the 9 Merlins are planned to be fitted with pre-IOC standard kits. At least the CGS will have some kind of Airborne Surveillance and Control capability, even if not properly certified and complete. In a significant change of plan, 849 Naval Air Squadron, which had been the ASaC squadron equipped with Sea Kings and was supposed to transition to Crowsnest, was disbanded in April 2020. The role will now be absorbed into 820 NAS. The squadron will have two streams of observers that specialise in either, anti-submarine warfare or ASaC. The RN has just 30 Merlin Mk2 helicopters, airframes are in short supply."
Sea Noff spotted with ball down over Chez Mog last week!
Apologies for harping on about this.
As well as seeing FOC for Crowsnest, 2023 should see the completion of the incremental improvements to Merlin HM.2 under the ASW Spearhead Multi Static Active sonar capability programme. As currently planned both will phased out in 2029. Back in 2015 the then head of JHC, Maj. Gen. Richard Felton wanted to extend the OSD for Puma to align it with that of Merlin - so there could be a common requirement for a furture medium lift helicopter. However this would be contrary to MoDs four core fleets strategy.
I know this is to some extent facetious but the Sea King Replacment requirement was issued in 1977 the first EH101 flew in 1987, Merlin entered service in 1997 (RAF) and 1998 (RN). So twenty years plus from requirement to an operational capability. I cannot remember and cannot find any public references to a requirement for a Merlin replacement. SDSR2015 only mentions the current RW fleets with the new Apaches being seen as a virtual upgrade rather than replacement. there is also nothing in 2018's Mobilising, Modernising & Transforming Defence. Surely, unless there is a firm intention to buy OTS should an Merlin Replacement requirement have been long in the public domain? If OTS then what's out therewWith HMGs commitment to invest in the economy perumably they would be looking at UK manufacture is this going to mean licence production, the only similar size replacement I can see in Leonardo's portfolio is new Merlins but I don't see an advance like the Apache fronm D to E. If the CHF condinues to exist it would make sense to look at the US Army /USMC FLV JMR-Heavy Chinook replacement but apparently Boeing is working on the basis of 2060 not the original 2035. Does that mean a merger of CHF and SH with new marinized Chinooks with F35 style cross service manning and tasking? For ASW/ASsC does this mean looking at RPAS / AutonomousUAV following a life extension. I would think the MH-60R will not be feasible evenn though it sitll be the USN's platform of choice; by 2029 I would think they will be well into looking at what should replace it.
Or does this all boil down to more OSD extensions as a result of kicking the can down the road?
The Royal Navy's Merlin Mark 2 and Mark 4/4A helicopters are currently planned to go out of service in 2029 and 2030 respectively. The Ministry of Defence keeps the out of service dates for all equipment under regular and routine review.
Jeremy Quin MP MoS (MoD.) on 7 July 2020 in reply to a written question from Kevan Jones MP (former ParliamentaryUS (Veterans) and Shadow Defence Minister and member of the HoC Defence Select Committee)
Jeremy Quin MP MoS (MoD.) on 7 July 2020 in reply to a written question from Kevan Jones MP (former ParliamentaryUS (Veterans) and Shadow Defence Minister and member of the HoC Defence Select Committee)
I know this is to some extent facetious but the Sea King Replacment requirement was issued in 1977 the first EH101 flew in 1987, Merlin entered service in 1997 (RAF) and 1998 (RN). So twenty years plus from requirement to an operational capability. I cannot remember and cannot find any public references to a requirement for a Merlin replacement. SDSR2015 only mentions the current RW fleets with the new Apaches being seen as a virtual upgrade rather than replacement. there is also nothing in 2018's Mobilising, Modernising & Transforming Defence. Surely, unless there is a firm intention to buy OTS should an Merlin Replacement requirement have been long in the public domain? If OTS then what's out therewWith HMGs commitment to invest in the economy perumably they would be looking at UK manufacture is this going to mean licence production, the only similar size replacement I can see in Leonardo's portfolio is new Merlins but I don't see an advance like the Apache fronm D to E. If the CHF condinues to exist it would make sense to look at the US Army /USMC FLV JMR-Heavy Chinook replacement but apparently Boeing is working on the basis of 2060 not the original 2035. Does that mean a merger of CHF and SH with new marinized Chinooks with F35 style cross service manning and tasking? For ASW/ASsC does this mean looking at RPAS / AutonomousUAV following a life extension. I would think the MH-60R will not be feasible evenn though it sitll be the USN's platform of choice; by 2029 I would think they will be well into looking at what should replace it.
Or does this all boil down to more OSD extensions as a result of kicking the can down the road?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...rier-v2gnwrr88
Britain set to confront China with new aircraft carrier
HMS Queen Elizabeth may be based in Far East
Military chiefs have drawn up plans to base one of Britain’s new aircraft carriers in the Far East to play a part in countering an increasingly assertive China, The Times can reveal......
Defence chiefs have drawn up proposals to base one of the carriers in the Indo-Pacific region. One option is to invite allies with F-35s, such as the United States and potentially Japan, to contribute airpower to a carrier strike group. A wider array of partners, including Australia and Canada, could be invited to provide escort warships or submarines to complete the flotilla.
A source said: “One carrier will support Nato in the North Atlantic. Where else are you going to put the other? On the main trade routes and to counter the emerging threat of China. It would be an allied task group, a British carrier, but a coalition of the willing. That’s how it’s being looked at.”.....
Vice-Admiral Jerry Kyd, the fleet commander, served notice yesterday that the Royal Navy was “going to be coming back to the Indo-Pacific” region. “Our ambition is to be absolutely persistent and forward-based there, maybe with a carrier strike group, or maybe not. We’ll see,” he said,
He raised the prospect of Britain’s F-35 stealth fighter jets disembarking in the region, adding that they could be sustained “through our US allies and through the hub in Japan”. A British aircraft carrier could take them out there and bring them home again, he told a webinar hosted by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a London-based think tank. Another option is to base a smaller Royal Navy warship in the region, such as a frigate.
The plans are being examined as part of a review into foreign, defence and security policy, which is set to be completed this autumn. Insiders say that there is a “maritime orientation” to the defence part of the review......
Air Marshal Gerry Mayhew, deputy commander operations, suggested that allies in the region would welcome a larger British military presence. He said that alongside western partners, “colleagues in the Far East through the ‘five powers’ defence agreements and with Japan, and a whole host of others are really excited by the air and maritime opportunities that we bring.”......
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: “HMS Queen Elizabethand its escorts will offer the United Kingdom a world-class sovereign carrier strike capability. No decision has been made on HMS Queen Elizabeth’s deployment.”
Britain set to confront China with new aircraft carrier
HMS Queen Elizabeth may be based in Far East
Military chiefs have drawn up plans to base one of Britain’s new aircraft carriers in the Far East to play a part in countering an increasingly assertive China, The Times can reveal......
Defence chiefs have drawn up proposals to base one of the carriers in the Indo-Pacific region. One option is to invite allies with F-35s, such as the United States and potentially Japan, to contribute airpower to a carrier strike group. A wider array of partners, including Australia and Canada, could be invited to provide escort warships or submarines to complete the flotilla.
A source said: “One carrier will support Nato in the North Atlantic. Where else are you going to put the other? On the main trade routes and to counter the emerging threat of China. It would be an allied task group, a British carrier, but a coalition of the willing. That’s how it’s being looked at.”.....
Vice-Admiral Jerry Kyd, the fleet commander, served notice yesterday that the Royal Navy was “going to be coming back to the Indo-Pacific” region. “Our ambition is to be absolutely persistent and forward-based there, maybe with a carrier strike group, or maybe not. We’ll see,” he said,
He raised the prospect of Britain’s F-35 stealth fighter jets disembarking in the region, adding that they could be sustained “through our US allies and through the hub in Japan”. A British aircraft carrier could take them out there and bring them home again, he told a webinar hosted by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a London-based think tank. Another option is to base a smaller Royal Navy warship in the region, such as a frigate.
The plans are being examined as part of a review into foreign, defence and security policy, which is set to be completed this autumn. Insiders say that there is a “maritime orientation” to the defence part of the review......
Air Marshal Gerry Mayhew, deputy commander operations, suggested that allies in the region would welcome a larger British military presence. He said that alongside western partners, “colleagues in the Far East through the ‘five powers’ defence agreements and with Japan, and a whole host of others are really excited by the air and maritime opportunities that we bring.”......
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: “HMS Queen Elizabethand its escorts will offer the United Kingdom a world-class sovereign carrier strike capability. No decision has been made on HMS Queen Elizabeth’s deployment.”
yesss.................... well ................................ "A source said: “One carrier will support Nato in the North Atlantic. Where else are you going to put the other? "
It'll be laid up in "readiness" at Portsmouth - the RN doesn't have the money nor the people to keep two in operation at once. Nor can it afford to send half the active navy out east to support "a floating trade fair" which was also a major role mentioned in the actual Times report.
And we all remember what happened the last time the UK sent a major warship (or two) to Singapore to "confront" a large Eastern power - it did not end well...................
My money is on "Another option is to base a smaller Royal Navy warship in the region, such as a frigate."
It'll be laid up in "readiness" at Portsmouth - the RN doesn't have the money nor the people to keep two in operation at once. Nor can it afford to send half the active navy out east to support "a floating trade fair" which was also a major role mentioned in the actual Times report.
And we all remember what happened the last time the UK sent a major warship (or two) to Singapore to "confront" a large Eastern power - it did not end well...................
My money is on "Another option is to base a smaller Royal Navy warship in the region, such as a frigate."
Asturias56,
Er, it may have escaped your notice but right now the RN DOES have two fully crewed aircraft carriers in full commision and at sea...
Er, it may have escaped your notice but right now the RN DOES have two fully crewed aircraft carriers in full commision and at sea...
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Britain’s Royal Navy took delivery of two new aircraft carriers, but a government report on the ships achieving operational capability has laid bare some obstacles toward making a fully effective carrier strike group.
In a report released June 25, the National Audit Office pointed to delays in developing the Crowsnest airborne early warning radar and contracting to build the logistics ships destined to support the 65,000-ton carriers as ongoing problems for the Royal Navy. The NAO also raised questions about future funding.
The Ministry of Defence is making slow “progress in developing the crucial supporting activities that are needed to make full use of a carrier strike group, such as the Crowsnest radar system and the ability to resupply the carriers. In addition, it has not established a clear view on the future cost of enhancing, operating and supporting carrier strike, which creates the risk of future affordability pressures,” the NAO said.
Added the head of the watchdog: “The MoD also needs to get a firmer grip on the future costs of carrier strike. By failing to understand their full extent, it risks adding to the financial strain on a defense budget that is already unaffordable.”
HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first of two carriers built by British industry in a £4.6 billion (U.S. $5.7 billion) program, is already undertaking extensive sea trials, with its F-35B jets ahead of a planned first deployment next year.
The second carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, is also conducting sea trials but is some months behind its sister ship. The warships are not expected to be operated simultaneously.
In a report released June 25, the National Audit Office pointed to delays in developing the Crowsnest airborne early warning radar and contracting to build the logistics ships destined to support the 65,000-ton carriers as ongoing problems for the Royal Navy. The NAO also raised questions about future funding.
The Ministry of Defence is making slow “progress in developing the crucial supporting activities that are needed to make full use of a carrier strike group, such as the Crowsnest radar system and the ability to resupply the carriers. In addition, it has not established a clear view on the future cost of enhancing, operating and supporting carrier strike, which creates the risk of future affordability pressures,” the NAO said.
Added the head of the watchdog: “The MoD also needs to get a firmer grip on the future costs of carrier strike. By failing to understand their full extent, it risks adding to the financial strain on a defense budget that is already unaffordable.”
HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first of two carriers built by British industry in a £4.6 billion (U.S. $5.7 billion) program, is already undertaking extensive sea trials, with its F-35B jets ahead of a planned first deployment next year.
The second carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, is also conducting sea trials but is some months behind its sister ship. The warships are not expected to be operated simultaneously.
Neither are supposed to be doing their jobs as aircraft carriers yet. HMSQNLZ (R08) is due for her first operational deployment next year and HMSPWLS (R09) will undoubtedly follow.
The crew of R09 has been supporting the Civil Powers involved in COVID-19 mobile testing units here in Hampshire. As we are all aware R08 has been building up her a capabilities with "Joint Force Lightning"
For accuracy's sake both ships are in commission but currently alongside in Pompey.
The crew of R09 has been supporting the Civil Powers involved in COVID-19 mobile testing units here in Hampshire. As we are all aware R08 has been building up her a capabilities with "Joint Force Lightning"
For accuracy's sake both ships are in commission but currently alongside in Pompey.
My post crossed with Nutty's. I am not sure that "not expected to be operated simultaneously" is the official view. SDSR 2015 said "Both Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers will be brought into service and fully crewed, one of which will be modified to better support amphibious operations and one carrier to be available at all times." OK, things have moved on and we await SDSR 20/21 and the influence of Cyber Cummings. My understanding is that SDSR 2015 meant at least one i.e. both will never be in refit / mainrtenance at the same time. Given personnel shortages in would be mad to have a crew of 700 twiddling their thumbs, as regards operations, on a carrier "in readiness" Though, personally, I would have thought it was likely that, given the planned F-35 buy, the "modified" one will operate more as an LPH when both are active. The First Sea Lord was talking up a global navy and forward presence last year,
The FSL’s Five priorities from his speech at DSEI 11SEP2019
Firstly, the North Atlantic. This is key to ensuring the freedom of movement of the nuclear deterrent, but it is an area where we are facing increasing pressure, especially from Russia.
…
This whole approach seeks to change ASW from delivery by individual platforms, to a battlespace of networked sensors.
My second priority is Carrier Strike. We are enormously grateful for the investment by successive governments and the nation. My task now is to deliver on this, increase and magnify the value of that investment. We need to shift the whole Navy to being a Carrier Task Group Navy. This will allow us to project our power around the world.
My third priority is the Future Commando Force. We will build on the amazing cachet and specialness of our Royal Marine Commandos, blending them with technology to have 5th Generation Commando Warriors.
My fourth priority is Forward Presence. This is about being able to demonstrate a Global Navy, project influence and respond to threats more quickly. We have already seen the success of forward basing in Bahrain.
Now I want to have a conversation about whether we could deploy more ships, permanently stationed forward in areas where we have significant interests. This is a real manifestation of Global Britain.
And finally, we have to embrace Technology and Innovation in a much bigger way. We are doing some great things across the Service. But it has to be stronger, bolder and much more impactful.
Firstly, the North Atlantic. This is key to ensuring the freedom of movement of the nuclear deterrent, but it is an area where we are facing increasing pressure, especially from Russia.
…
This whole approach seeks to change ASW from delivery by individual platforms, to a battlespace of networked sensors.
My second priority is Carrier Strike. We are enormously grateful for the investment by successive governments and the nation. My task now is to deliver on this, increase and magnify the value of that investment. We need to shift the whole Navy to being a Carrier Task Group Navy. This will allow us to project our power around the world.
My third priority is the Future Commando Force. We will build on the amazing cachet and specialness of our Royal Marine Commandos, blending them with technology to have 5th Generation Commando Warriors.
My fourth priority is Forward Presence. This is about being able to demonstrate a Global Navy, project influence and respond to threats more quickly. We have already seen the success of forward basing in Bahrain.
Now I want to have a conversation about whether we could deploy more ships, permanently stationed forward in areas where we have significant interests. This is a real manifestation of Global Britain.
And finally, we have to embrace Technology and Innovation in a much bigger way. We are doing some great things across the Service. But it has to be stronger, bolder and much more impactful.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
There were things in the article I posted which raised my interest. Firstly:
Which implies a UK shore-based F-35B presence even if on a rotating basis? 5 Nation Air Defence? Butterworth or Australia? Singapore? (They have a purpose built pier just for large aircraft carriers to attract someone to visit or stay....
Secondly:
We provide the carrier and others supply the rest of a CBG? I can see the USMC being willing to provide an F-35B Sqn on an almost permanent basis in that area, and the USN to provide surface and subsurface assets - and perhaps Australia, Japan and others.
He raised the prospect of Britain’s F-35 stealth fighter jets disembarking in the region, adding that they could be sustained “through our US allies and through the hub in Japan”. A British aircraft carrier could take them out there and bring them home again
Secondly:
It would be an allied task group, a British carrier, but a coalition of the willing. That’s how it’s being looked at.”.....
yeah but everything published states the QE will go into refit as soon as the PoW is fully operational "On 23 November 2015, the government published its 2015 Strategic Defence review which confirmed its plans to bring into service both Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, with one to be available at all times"