Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Apparently quite a few people sweating across the UK military - industrial complex.................. he doesn't take prisoners................
But we had the Admirals writing in the Times letter pages rebutting Hastings article today ... this will run and run.............
But we had the Admirals writing in the Times letter pages rebutting Hastings article today ... this will run and run.............
Apparently quite a few people sweating across the UK military - industrial complex.................. he doesn't take prisoners................
But we had the Admirals writing in the Times letter pages rebutting Hastings article today ... this will run and run.............
But we had the Admirals writing in the Times letter pages rebutting Hastings article today ... this will run and run.............
It will be interesting to see how DC squares "the MIC" with the defence jobs in the North and Scotland argument. Interestingly, many of the "inefficiencies" are entangled with process to ensure VFM and prevent fraud, as well as annualised budgets for capital projects - which John Parker had as the most important fix in his shipbuilding strategy and which strangely has yet to win HMT approval......
F-35B launch from QNLZ in Portsmouth apparently scheduled for 1230 today.
Given that the future has arrived as it were, could not the thread, seemingly going for ever and a day, be retitled please?
More letters in the "Times" today .
A cynic might think they ran the Hastings article to stir up some action.................... but also reporting "support for a review" from senior Tories
A cynic might think they ran the Hastings article to stir up some action.................... but also reporting "support for a review" from senior Tories
looking at the Ben Wallace speech (see the SDR thread) not long at all....................
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If they tied that in with "homeland security" as opposed to "lets go bomb them back to the stone age" type of political direction [please note that] an awful lot of people would say well done...
weemonkey,
Be VERY careful what you wish for!
If the review was scoped as you suggest, and merely focuses the UK armed forces on home defence, you would end up with maybe 4 Typhoon AD squadrons, 1 wedgetail AEW Sqn, 1 P-8A squadron, a couple of radar stations, the SAS, a few ceremonial Guards regiments, a few OPV's and that would be about it.
Be VERY careful what you wish for!
If the review was scoped as you suggest, and merely focuses the UK armed forces on home defence, you would end up with maybe 4 Typhoon AD squadrons, 1 wedgetail AEW Sqn, 1 P-8A squadron, a couple of radar stations, the SAS, a few ceremonial Guards regiments, a few OPV's and that would be about it.
weemonkey said “homeland security” which pr00ne twisted to “home defence”; I don’t think they are quite the same thing as ‘security’ has wider scope and includes such things as protection of shipping elsewhere. And unless pr00ne is proposing to withdraw from NATO then we have Alliance burden-sharing responsibilities to fulfil which would add to the minimalist shopping list he presented.
The problem weemonkey alludes to is aggravated by a perceived need for force elements to be kept ‘busy’ to justify their existence; why, for instance, are Typhoons still taking part in Op SHADER? So I think an important issue for this review will be readiness states and what we expect our NATO contribution to do while waiting for WW3. Less interfering in far-flung corners and more focus on training would improve retention and might even reduce pressure on the wage bill.
Trouble is, the carriers were acquired precisely to interfere in far-flung corners, and rebranding them as ASW platforms for the NATO context doesn’t really help the case for the rest of the F-35 acquisition programme. That’s just the kind of problem that Cummings will focus on.
The problem weemonkey alludes to is aggravated by a perceived need for force elements to be kept ‘busy’ to justify their existence; why, for instance, are Typhoons still taking part in Op SHADER? So I think an important issue for this review will be readiness states and what we expect our NATO contribution to do while waiting for WW3. Less interfering in far-flung corners and more focus on training would improve retention and might even reduce pressure on the wage bill.
Trouble is, the carriers were acquired precisely to interfere in far-flung corners, and rebranding them as ASW platforms for the NATO context doesn’t really help the case for the rest of the F-35 acquisition programme. That’s just the kind of problem that Cummings will focus on.
Last edited by Easy Street; 23rd Dec 2019 at 11:10.
Just sticking with the carriers,....We have a ridiculous situation where, the sensible requirement for UK security to have 5th Gen combat aircraft has been corrupted. Notwithstanding that the RN have an impressive submarine capability that includes the UK Nuclear deterrent, the aspirations of the Navy top brass rose, unfettered almost, to include a brace of (almost) Capital ships, at the cost of a better balanced surface fleet and, to the gross detriment of the RAF. Furthermore, the capability of the UK carriers is overstated. They are vulnerable and, their specifications and limitations have neutered the performance of the 5th Gen aircraft that they will carry. The carriers vulnerability is well known and compounded by the fact that in a serious conflict, at sea they represent targets that are likely to be proportional and free from collateral risk, such that they may be targeted by Nuclear weapons within the limitations of LOAC. The use of Nuclear weapons against fixed base airfield targets is generally much more difficult within LOAC. Moreover, the fatuous argument that the location of the carriers would be unknown to a capable enemy is, just that. The RAF have been lumbered with a 5th Gen combat aircraft that is unfairly compromised by the requirements of the Navy carriers.
I firmly believe that continued progress down this flawed concept of capability should be brought to a cost effective close. The most likely way forward might be the continued operation of a single carrier. The Navy may wish to consider the ways to better balance their fleet. The RAF should be equipped with less compromised 5th Gen aircraft and not shackled with the Naval limitations. Just my opinion.
OAP
I firmly believe that continued progress down this flawed concept of capability should be brought to a cost effective close. The most likely way forward might be the continued operation of a single carrier. The Navy may wish to consider the ways to better balance their fleet. The RAF should be equipped with less compromised 5th Gen aircraft and not shackled with the Naval limitations. Just my opinion.
OAP
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weemonkey,
Be VERY careful what you wish for!
If the review was scoped as you suggest, and merely focuses the UK armed forces on home defence, you would end up with maybe 4 Typhoon AD squadrons, 1 wedgetail AEW Sqn, 1 P-8A squadron, a couple of radar stations, the SAS, a few ceremonial Guards regiments, a few OPV's and that would be about it.
Be VERY careful what you wish for!
If the review was scoped as you suggest, and merely focuses the UK armed forces on home defence, you would end up with maybe 4 Typhoon AD squadrons, 1 wedgetail AEW Sqn, 1 P-8A squadron, a couple of radar stations, the SAS, a few ceremonial Guards regiments, a few OPV's and that would be about it.
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We really should be "moving away" from expeditionary warfare in the middle east, when the danger on the borders of Europe is growing, to consolidate on the security of "home base" If properly executed your list would do for Scotland and the Northern Approaches; Monday to Friday.
Radical Islam is bad enough as it is, to ignore it and let them act with impunity would imperil us all.
There is a good argument for whom the target(s) should be, however.
The failure has been palpable, whether in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali or even Nigeria. If there has been a successful intervention, it is well hidden. Even the Israeli experience suggests the problem is intractable militarily.
There may be a solution, but just the military sure is not it.
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The evidence to date suggests that the military are entirely incapable of suppressing 'radical Islam'. Indeed, military interventions have simple metastasized the problem.
The failure has been palpable, whether in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali or even Nigeria. If there has been a successful intervention, it is well hidden. Even the Israeli experience suggests the problem is intractable militarily.
There may be a solution, but just the military sure is not it.
The failure has been palpable, whether in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali or even Nigeria. If there has been a successful intervention, it is well hidden. Even the Israeli experience suggests the problem is intractable militarily.
There may be a solution, but just the military sure is not it.
Unfortunately, we must continue to use the military and law enforcement to disrupt the leadership of these organisations, and a well equipped Carrier Air Wing, or two, is just one of the tools for that job. Nobody in their right mind wants a repeat of 9/11.
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The carriers really are a monumental waste of time and money, with negative impacts far beyond the decks themselves. The sooner they are junked the better. In the short term I expect the SDSR to propose the laying up of one of them, along with a commitment to a number of F35As. And then it will simply be a matter of time before the other one is quietly pensioned off and the whole sorry saga can be bought to a conclusion.