Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,808
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Thread Starter
The third episode of the documentary is on tonight at 2000 on BBC 2, including the first SRVL landing.
Carriers are not all about jets. The CVS (Invincible class) was originally designed to operate nine or so ASW Sea Kings to protect task groups and convoys, to which the Sea Harrier was later added to deal with Bears providing long range guidance for submarine launched missiles. Later, post 2000 ir so, squadrons of six Marlins would embark.
Given the greater range and endurance, can they achieve the same level of coverage with six aircraft? Against a limited threat, perhaps three cabs an a towed array frigate (with extra Merlin) is enough? Or at least enough to protect the carrier (only)?
Even with a limited threat, perhaps a couple of SSKs, you would still want to use things such as helicopters with dipping sonar AND frigates with towed array. It is a carrier role - and wonder if any carriers will take part in next year's Exercise Defender 2020?
Back to the jets, this Corbett Paper makes the point that have carriers up to speed with having jets embarked, they need to be embarked regularly.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Greater Aldergrove
Age: 52
Posts: 851
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Folks,
Loving this thread, as a mere enthusiast. Brought a question to mind, given the joint RN/RAF deployment of F35s planned.
Back in the Falklands, the RAF deployed Harriers onto the RN carriers...presumably this was something that was trained for in advance? Or was it concieved specifically to tackle the Argentines in 1982?
Loving this thread, as a mere enthusiast. Brought a question to mind, given the joint RN/RAF deployment of F35s planned.
Back in the Falklands, the RAF deployed Harriers onto the RN carriers...presumably this was something that was trained for in advance? Or was it concieved specifically to tackle the Argentines in 1982?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...gned-5l97th9jb
A consortium led by Babcock beat two rival bids to build the cut-price warships, which are 140m long. The Ministry of Defence had set a ceiling of £250 million per ship, which critics initially decried as unrealistic. The new fleet of general purpose “budget” frigates are set to be delivered by 2028, with the first entering the water by 2023.
Questions were raised over the timing of the announcement during the election campaign. Announcements of a political nature are banned under purdah rules.
Boris Johnson has pledged to “bring shipbuilding home” and the deal will help to make the domestic industry viable. The “e” in the Type 31e’s name stands for “export” because the plan is for the ships to be sold overseas.
The firm said that the ships would be assembled at its Rosyth facility and involve supply chains throughout the country, in line with the UK’s shipbuilding strategy.
It is understood that the decision to sign the contract fell to the ministry’s permanent secretary, Sir Stephen Lovegrove, who in his capacity as the accounting officer made the decision to proceed on cost grounds.
Archie Bethel, chief executive of Babcock, said that the Arrowhead 140 design on which the Type 31es would be based was a “modern warship that will meet the maritime threats of today and tomorrow with British ingenuity and engineering at its core”.
Boost for shipyard as deal for five frigates is signed
The government has signed a £1.25 billion deal with a defence giant to build five Type 31e frigates at a Scottish shipyard.A consortium led by Babcock beat two rival bids to build the cut-price warships, which are 140m long. The Ministry of Defence had set a ceiling of £250 million per ship, which critics initially decried as unrealistic. The new fleet of general purpose “budget” frigates are set to be delivered by 2028, with the first entering the water by 2023.
Questions were raised over the timing of the announcement during the election campaign. Announcements of a political nature are banned under purdah rules.
Boris Johnson has pledged to “bring shipbuilding home” and the deal will help to make the domestic industry viable. The “e” in the Type 31e’s name stands for “export” because the plan is for the ships to be sold overseas.
The firm said that the ships would be assembled at its Rosyth facility and involve supply chains throughout the country, in line with the UK’s shipbuilding strategy.
It is understood that the decision to sign the contract fell to the ministry’s permanent secretary, Sir Stephen Lovegrove, who in his capacity as the accounting officer made the decision to proceed on cost grounds.
Archie Bethel, chief executive of Babcock, said that the Arrowhead 140 design on which the Type 31es would be based was a “modern warship that will meet the maritime threats of today and tomorrow with British ingenuity and engineering at its core”.
Well thank God for that. Let's hope they order more than 5 eventually - the RN needs these more than it needs the carriers TBH.
The great risk is that of creeping add-ons but if they can build them fast enough there won't be enough time for people to dream up some nice expensive modifications.
The great risk is that of creeping add-ons but if they can build them fast enough there won't be enough time for people to dream up some nice expensive modifications.
Big splash in this weeks "Economist" with an oped and a 3 -4 page Briefing on Carriers in general and the USN v China in particular. You'll have to pay to buy the magazine and its pay-walled the website
Fairly balanced - points out the horrendous cost and the increase in defensive systems are pushing them further and further offshore and increasing the need for IFR in the USN/China case.
In general they see that (for everyone except the USN)
"The result of all this is that carriers will only be fully effective against military minnows. “Most of the time, nations aren’t in a high-end fight with a peer competitor,” says Mr Kaushal, “but are competing for influence in third states, perhaps a civil war like Syria.” China appreciates that its own carriers would not survive for long in a scrap with America—but they might come in handy for cowing an Asian neighbour into submission or bombarding irksome rebels on some African coast."
Fairly balanced - points out the horrendous cost and the increase in defensive systems are pushing them further and further offshore and increasing the need for IFR in the USN/China case.
In general they see that (for everyone except the USN)
"The result of all this is that carriers will only be fully effective against military minnows. “Most of the time, nations aren’t in a high-end fight with a peer competitor,” says Mr Kaushal, “but are competing for influence in third states, perhaps a civil war like Syria.” China appreciates that its own carriers would not survive for long in a scrap with America—but they might come in handy for cowing an Asian neighbour into submission or bombarding irksome rebels on some African coast."
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the edge of madness
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well thank God for that. Let's hope they order more than 5 eventually - the RN needs these more than it needs the carriers TBH.
That is true - and another issue much debated here over the last few years.
If you are not careful you have the whole of the RN sailing around in one bunch with a carrier in the middle. With only 2 carriers there is a risk they are so "iconic" (and expensive) the politicians won't risk them in harm's way at all - and, like the Argentinian Navy, you finish up with them parked at home for safety.
If you are not careful you have the whole of the RN sailing around in one bunch with a carrier in the middle. With only 2 carriers there is a risk they are so "iconic" (and expensive) the politicians won't risk them in harm's way at all - and, like the Argentinian Navy, you finish up with them parked at home for safety.
BRITAIN’S LARGEST WARSHIP VISITS ANNAPOLIS
Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bay Magazine 20 Nov 2019
There’s something unusual anchored in Annapolis this week: a British Royal Navy aircraft carrier, the largest and most powerful warship the UK has ever had. And it created quite a buzz traveling up the Bay...
This is the first time a Royal Navy ship has officially visited Annapolis in more than 60 years, since the HMS Bigbury was at the port. There have been no other Royal Navy visits in the past century. While in town, the carrier will host international leaders to plan cooperative defense strategies...
While Queen Elizabeth is anchored off Annapolis, it will host a Defence and Security Trade exhibition Wednesday, and on Thursday, the Atlantic Future Forum (AFF). The AFF brings together US and UK military, government, and private industry leaders to discuss Artificial Intelligence, technology, and robotics, known as the “fourth industrial revolution"...
This is the first time a Royal Navy ship has officially visited Annapolis in more than 60 years, since the HMS Bigbury was at the port. There have been no other Royal Navy visits in the past century. While in town, the carrier will host international leaders to plan cooperative defense strategies...
While Queen Elizabeth is anchored off Annapolis, it will host a Defence and Security Trade exhibition Wednesday, and on Thursday, the Atlantic Future Forum (AFF). The AFF brings together US and UK military, government, and private industry leaders to discuss Artificial Intelligence, technology, and robotics, known as the “fourth industrial revolution"...
Pity Prince Andrew in't available..............
Folks,
Loving this thread, as a mere enthusiast. Brought a question to mind, given the joint RN/RAF deployment of F35s planned.
Back in the Falklands, the RAF deployed Harriers onto the RN carriers...presumably this was something that was trained for in advance? Or was it concieved specifically to tackle the Argentines in 1982?
Loving this thread, as a mere enthusiast. Brought a question to mind, given the joint RN/RAF deployment of F35s planned.
Back in the Falklands, the RAF deployed Harriers onto the RN carriers...presumably this was something that was trained for in advance? Or was it concieved specifically to tackle the Argentines in 1982?
Training for the GR3s, was carried out in the UK while the Task Force headed south, and the GR3s then flew out to Ascension and thence onto Atlantic Conveyor. After a 12-day trip on that ship, they flew off to Hermes, with six being aboard by 20 May 1982. The planning scenario in which the GR3s would be used alongside the SHAR for air defence after losses to the SHAR force reached a certain level didn't transpire, so the GR3s were used in their normal role.
It crosses my mind that the possibility of a couple or more of these units and a few well trained marines embarked could provide some very useful capability. (RAS/L, RAS/S etc.)
I am aware that this may be associated with the WESTLANT show and tell, but have any trials occurred?
IG
I am aware that this may be associated with the WESTLANT show and tell, but have any trials occurred?
IG
QNLZ has started earning her keep with a bit of soft power:
U.S., U.K., Japan Navies Reaffirm Commitment to Increased Cooperation
Chief of Maritime Staff Adm. Hiroshi Yamamura, left, First Sea Lord Adm. Tony Radakin, and
Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Mike Gilday sign a Trilateral Head of Navy Joint Statement
aboard the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08).
(U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Raymond D. Diaz III/Released)
U.S., U.K., Japan Navies Reaffirm Commitment to Increased Cooperation
Originally Posted by US Navy website 20 Nov 2019
ANNAPOLIS, Md. (NNS) -- Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Mike Gilday joined First Sea Lord, United Kingdom Royal Navy Adm. Tony Radakin and Chief of Staff of the Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force Adm. Hiroshi Yamamura for a trilateral maritime discussion onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08) anchored outside Annapolis, Nov. 20. During the meeting, the three leaders signed a trilateral cooperation agreement reaffirming their commitment to increased collaboration and cooperation...
Chief of Maritime Staff Adm. Hiroshi Yamamura, left, First Sea Lord Adm. Tony Radakin, and
Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Mike Gilday sign a Trilateral Head of Navy Joint Statement
aboard the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08).
(U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Raymond D. Diaz III/Released)
Last edited by FODPlod; 21st Nov 2019 at 09:13.
Agreed Video Mixdown! And really liked the vid clip. Worked the deck on the CVS's and never forget the night watching a poor SHAR-jock try to sign out his jet for his first night sortie which, in them days, was "routine". His hands were shaking so much his sig on the 700 was completely illegible (compared to his normal one - it more resembled the one on his Bar Chits after several pints of CSB - not that he'd been to the bar before hand I hasten to add!!!!). The flight went well IIR, and us pinger-pukes didn't half take the mickey out the Stovies as routine (I think they call it a "target-rich environment" 
) but, having scared myself a few times in a subsequent ultra-benign civvie career flying.....
) but, having scared myself a few times in a subsequent ultra-benign civvie career flying.....
I recently watched the last episode of the QE and there were trials involving a Civvy, ex-RAF/RN test pilot doing SRVL. A first wave off, followed by a very precise SRVL and stopping within the distance. Views from the cockpit as well as from Flyco. Later they indicated that trials were to continue using a weapons load.
Very, very impressive and a world first for the RN/QE .
SVRL
IG
Very, very impressive and a world first for the RN/QE .
SVRL
IG
Last edited by Imagegear; 25th Nov 2019 at 05:59.
It's working up the Ship/Sqdn "Shag" capability that may take more time ... but probably not much more time. Depends when the capability itself is cleared for use operationally and then the massed Stovies can let rip to individually qual in the SRVL (I think "V"s and "R"s have been mixed up in some posts - it's "Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing" (I had to check that myself!)). Anyway, I believe that will be the route.
As for the first use, and someone will correct me, I'm sure I recall a sort of SRVL which the SHARs could use if push came to a shove in an emergency. My memory is a bit (OK, very!) hazy but I seem to recall Step 1 of the procedure was to clear the flight deck of everything else given how small the CVSs were. You could leave something spotted directly ahead of the island but all the rest had to be clear, either downstairs or in the air. Now, those familiar with the CVS will testify that could be quite an undertaking given the lack of space down below. And it was a "last resort" "cunning plan" IIR. How quickly the memory fades - so I could be talking rubbish ... again. But happy to call the F35 "SRVL" a first as far as a "routine" process which I understand it will be.
Finally, as an aside, I still cringe when I hear the "Top Gun" use of things like "Whizzer" tho! It's so ... erm ... 1986! If you have to, but "Whizzer"??? There must be a more "appropriate/gung ho" play on the name "Wilson"! You get young boys (and girls too - just to remain PC) shooting "Whizzers" found in cheap Christmas Crackers across the dining room on Christmas Day. Hardly a "daring-do" TP image! Probably a really great guy and undoubtedly a spot-on TP - but "Whizzer"? Still beats what I suspect most people would call me.......!
And on that note ...... hat, coat ....
H 'n' H