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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

Old 13th Sep 2019, 08:10
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I see they will be based on the Danish "Iver Huitfeldt" class which were being offered to the Indonesians at around US$ 360 million a vessel.

Now IF the RN can just let them build it and not keep adding and tinkering with the spec you might, just might, get them for the £ 250 million target price

I think the Danes crew there's at around 100 men - so quite good for the manning issue.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 08:25
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
I see they will be based on the Danish "Iver Huitfeldt" class which were being offered to the Indonesians at around US$ 360 million a vessel.

Now IF the RN can just let them build it and not keep adding and tinkering with the spec you might, just might, get them for the £ 250 million target price

I think the Danes crew there's at around 100 men - so quite good for the manning issue.
The RN probably expects the ships to be built to the specs DE&S has mandated in the contract to meet the UK's purposes.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 08:41
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
I see they will be based on the Danish "Iver Huitfeldt" class which were being offered to the Indonesians at around US$ 360 million a vessel.

Now IF the RN can just let them build it and not keep adding and tinkering with the spec you might, just might, get them for the £ 250 million target price

I think the Danes crew there's at around 100 men - so quite good for the manning issue.
Who, precisely (by which I mean builder) was offering them to the Indonesians? You are aware that the designer (OMT) no longer has a shipyard with which to build them? The price is affected both by the specifications - from memory Iver Huitfeldt was built to DNV rules, T31 will be built to Lloyds Rules for Naval Ships and the UK safety standards applied to ANEP77 - and the efficiency and cost base of the build yard..

Of course, Rosyth isn't a shipyard either. It has built precisely zero ships. It has assembled two very large carriers from large blocks fabricated and outfitted elsewhere, simply because there was nowhere else to build them in a oner. Building T31 from little blocks nailed together in pseudo-shipyards (H&W haven't built a ship in nigh-on 20 years and Fergies haven't built any warships) is not going to be efficient. It will be interesting to see how well Babcocks control the programme and commercial risk here.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 09:07
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https://www.janes.com/article/87175/...te-acquisition

Apparently OMT also offered them to the Australians - sounds like its management and design that are on offer rather actual hulls which will be built locally

The IH class is built from standard blocks - a lot of them similar to the Absalom Class destroyers. There's a long and detailed article in the 2014 edition of World Naval Review

Actually building from pre-assembled blocks IS efficient - that's the way most large vessels are build these days - and things like oil rigs and offshore processing centres - you can have a lot of people working and not getting in each others way as you get on a traditional slip or dockyard - same way as we build aeroplanes or cars...............
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:23
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
https://www.janes.com/article/87175/...te-acquisition

Apparently OMT also offered them to the Australians - sounds like its management and design that are on offer rather actual hulls which will be built locally

The IH class is built from standard blocks - a lot of them similar to the Absalom Class destroyers. There's a long and detailed article in the 2014 edition of World Naval Review

Actually building from pre-assembled blocks IS efficient - that's the way most large vessels are build these days - and things like oil rigs and offshore processing centres - you can have a lot of people working and not getting in each others way as you get on a traditional slip or dockyard - same way as we build aeroplanes or cars...............
Hmm. One of us has built ships for a living and one of us hasn't. Your description above misunderstands what I said - and the analogy with aircraft and car production lines is inappropriate.

Building large pre-outfitted blocks is efficient. Building small ones in multiple places is not, simply because you can't actually get a meaningful quantity of outfit installed early. There are also a number of commercial and QA interfaces that drive additional overhead into the build process.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 11:28
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A warship is usually densely stuffed with gear, so building it in small sections, even if really accurate dimensional fit is achieved, does multiply the the joints and connections...
These are usually the first to fail, at least in electronics.
Still, the US Navy builds subs by the sausage slice, so the concept has been proven.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 13:11
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The carrier blocks are a bit of a red herring. Apart from the islands each one was bigger than a Type 31 so you're looking at a completely different scale of build.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 14:17
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But every ship is built from hundreds of pieces of kit built off site - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_frigate - very little is actually done on site these days

"According to Gary McCloskey, head of Type 26 supply chain at BAE Systems, by March 2017 between 40 and 50 suppliers were engaged in the Type 26 programme, and about 33 had full contracts.[73]

On 5 April 2017 Raytheon Anschütz announced successful integration of Warship Electronic Chart Display Information System (WECDIS) into their Integrated Navigation and Bridge Systems (INBS) for the Type 26.[74]

In July 2017 BAE Systems stated that the Type 26 programme currently employs more than 1,200 people in the UK supply chain, and in the future the programme would secure more than 3,400 jobs across BAE Systems and the wider UK maritime supply chain.[3] It was also stated in July 2017, that coinciding with the announcement of additional contracts, total investment in the Type 26 supply chain had reached £500 million. The 14 companies awarded contracts in the July announcement include Babcock for the helicopter landing grid, MSI Defence Systems for the small caliber gun, and Thales for the towed array system. The largest of the July-announced contracts are for the procurement of structural steel for the first three ships from UK and European steel mills by Dent Steel Services Ltd."


Still - THE important thing is that they have awarded the contract - lets hope they buy more than 5 and it doesn't turn into yet another "aspiration"
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 14:55
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
But every ship is built from hundreds of pieces of kit built off site - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_frigate - very little is actually done on site these days

"According to Gary McCloskey, head of Type 26 supply chain at BAE Systems, by March 2017 between 40 and 50 suppliers were engaged in the Type 26 programme, and about 33 had full contracts.[73]

On 5 April 2017 Raytheon Anschütz announced successful integration of Warship Electronic Chart Display Information System (WECDIS) into their Integrated Navigation and Bridge Systems (INBS) for the Type 26.[74]

In July 2017 BAE Systems stated that the Type 26 programme currently employs more than 1,200 people in the UK supply chain, and in the future the programme would secure more than 3,400 jobs across BAE Systems and the wider UK maritime supply chain.[3] It was also stated in July 2017, that coinciding with the announcement of additional contracts, total investment in the Type 26 supply chain had reached £500 million. The 14 companies awarded contracts in the July announcement include Babcock for the helicopter landing grid, MSI Defence Systems for the small caliber gun, and Thales for the towed array system. The largest of the July-announced contracts are for the procurement of structural steel for the first three ships from UK and European steel mills by Dent Steel Services Ltd."


Still - THE important thing is that they have awarded the contract - lets hope they buy more than 5 and it doesn't turn into yet another "aspiration"
Random quotes from t'internet are not a good supporting argument - you are presumably aware that integrating a piece of software into an INBS is not a shipyard task and hardly of relevance?

The supply chain has always been diverse - it means individual equipment items are built by individual companies and then delivered to the shipyard for installation to the ship (this is what "outfitting" means). Sometimes those items are installed on units / blocks (this is known as pre-outfitting or advanced outfitting), sometimes they are installed in the ship when it is erect on the berth or in the building dock. The supply of the item to the shipyard does not include the labour required to install it, connect it to the relevant services (power, cooling system, fuel, lub oil, control cabling etc - or indeed manufacture and install those services), inspect it in situ and then test commission and set to work that individual item or system. That labour is almost exclusively shipyard (sometimes contracted in subbies) but always requires more manhours the later in build you attempt the task.

"Very little done on site these days" is a very long way from the truth.





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Old 19th Sep 2019, 09:52
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Seems like today's the day for PoW. High tide ~17:00-ish.
http://www.forthports.co.uk/wp-conte...ment-Forth.pdf
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Old 19th Sep 2019, 17:27
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Old 19th Sep 2019, 17:40
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For interest:

Forth Bridge Webcam showing POW lying just west of the bridge on the opposite bank. On a 10 minute refresh. May need the tide to drop before passing the bridges.

Better when zoomed in:

Forth Bridge Webcam

IG
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Old 20th Sep 2019, 09:43
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Originally Posted by Imagegear
For interest:

Forth Bridge Webcam showing POW lying just west of the bridge on the opposite bank. On a 10 minute refresh. May need the tide to drop before passing the bridges.

Better when zoomed in:

Forth Bridge Webcam

IG
Local scuttlebut is that she'll sit off shore for a day or two testing systems then leave on low tide Monday
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 17:52
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
good. now about the manning...
less crew than the ships they are replacing. What am I missing?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:27
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Originally Posted by PeterGee

less crew than the ships they are replacing. What am I missing?

So this is the one we're keeping?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:12
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
So this is the one we're keeping?
very funny. My response was for the “how do we man the 5 new T31 frigates”

assuming you think we are only keeping one carrier, public record is we are keeping 2. One operational and deplorable, the other home based and used for training. They will of course rotate. Pretty wise I think.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:33
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Originally Posted by PeterGee

One operational and deplorable,
Surely it’s not that bad?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 21:09
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Originally Posted by PeterGee
My response was for the “how do we man the 5 new T31 frigates”
We man them using the crews from the 5 T23 frigates they are replacing one for one. With some personnel to spare...
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 22:14
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Originally Posted by Obi Wan Russell
We man them using the crews from the 5 T23 frigates they are replacing one for one. With some personnel to spare...
I seem to remember that was the line of thinking the German army staff tended towards at the end of WW2...
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 19:31
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
I seem to remember that was the line of thinking the German army staff tended towards at the end of WW2...
I wasn't aware the German Army in WW2 had the use of any T23 Frigates...

You learn something new everyday!
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