Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Interesting snippet from AW&ST. One hopes it is intended to upgraded/replaced before the trials are completed.....
”To perform the first SRVL landings, Wilson flew several SRVL approaches that were waved off at 500, 350 and 150 ft., allowing him to fly the approach to the stern using the SRVL array—a glidepath alignment cue also known as the Bedford Array—that when combined with a ship reference velocity vector in a helmet-mounted display enables pilots to fly an accurate glidepath. However, the Queen Elizabeth is yet to be fitted with the gyro-stabilized version of this system.
The second ship, HMS Prince of Wales, will have it fitted from launch.”.........
”To perform the first SRVL landings, Wilson flew several SRVL approaches that were waved off at 500, 350 and 150 ft., allowing him to fly the approach to the stern using the SRVL array—a glidepath alignment cue also known as the Bedford Array—that when combined with a ship reference velocity vector in a helmet-mounted display enables pilots to fly an accurate glidepath. However, the Queen Elizabeth is yet to be fitted with the gyro-stabilized version of this system.
The second ship, HMS Prince of Wales, will have it fitted from launch.”.........
The experimental Bedford Arrays* on HMS Illustrious were basically made out of scaffolding. Having-at Lusty's flight deck tramlines with the trusty Black and Decker to make some holes to fit flush lights was not deemed appropriate.
*Both of 'em. Only one was used at a time. If we had been able to install flush lights we'd only have installed one array.
*Both of 'em. Only one was used at a time. If we had been able to install flush lights we'd only have installed one array.
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France commences design study for its new carrier:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1MX1CV
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1MX1CV
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France commences design study for its new carrier:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1MX1CV
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1MX1CV
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I'm still amazed at how stable that thing is in the hover, compared with our previous trusty steed.
It looks good. Very well done to all involved.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Not sure who else in Europe might want to have, or share, a CTOL carrier.
”Also at Euronaval today, Florence Parly, French minister of the armed forces, announced plans for the successor to the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. A 18-month study phase has been launched that should give guidelines for choices such as diesel or nuclear propulsion, mechanical or electromagnetic catapults and the possibility to accommodate aircraft from other European countries. She hinted more than one vessel may be ordered, thanks to European cooperation.”
”Also at Euronaval today, Florence Parly, French minister of the armed forces, announced plans for the successor to the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier. A 18-month study phase has been launched that should give guidelines for choices such as diesel or nuclear propulsion, mechanical or electromagnetic catapults and the possibility to accommodate aircraft from other European countries. She hinted more than one vessel may be ordered, thanks to European cooperation.”
Thread Starter
Nuclear power was briefly considered for CVF, but fortunately rejected. I say fortunate in light of the problems France and the US have with nuclear carriers. Nuclear power is very expensive, demands a lot of manpower, and makes refits very long as you basically open up the ship to replace the reactors. Submarines have had the same problems, but the latest reactor cores used in the Astute boats are designed to last the boat's life.
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
Anyway - back to HMS Queen Elizabeth:
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
Anyway - back to HMS Queen Elizabeth:
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Nuclear power was briefly considered for CVF, but fortunately rejected. I say fortunate in light of the problems France and the US have with nuclear carriers. Nuclear power is very expensive, demands a lot of manpower, and makes refits very long as you basically open up the ship to replace the reactors. Submarines have had the same problems, but the latest reactor cores used in the Astute boats are designed to last the boat's life.
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
Even the Americans are finding that refitting and refueling nuclear carriers causes availability issues.
As for operating cost of nuclear vessels, the biggest cost hurdle for a nuclear powered ship is that very few ships share the needed nuclear infrastructure. With the military having created a nuclear infrastructure for marine powerplants, commercial nuclear vessels are again being studied and designed, but not yet built. The biggest remaining hurdle is insurance. Lloyds for example won't insure a commercial nuclear vessel. The 1962 Brussels Convention on liability of nuclear ship operators was never ratified. The governments self-insure their military nuclear vessels.
Thread Starter
So why was there talk of a 'crisis' regarding US Carrier availability?
Anyway...
During the 2011 campaign against Gaddafi, certain carrier critics cited the operating limitations of FS Charles De Gaulle as a limitation of all carriers - ignoring the limitations caused by her size and also by aircraft landing and catching a wire being more sensitive to sea state than aircraft landing vertically. Sea state four was the limit as I seem to remember.
HMS Queen Elizabeth has launched and recovered F-35B in sea state six with fifty knot winds.
Those who argued for smaller carriers were arguing for reduced operating limits, but without reducing cost significantly.
Anyway...
During the 2011 campaign against Gaddafi, certain carrier critics cited the operating limitations of FS Charles De Gaulle as a limitation of all carriers - ignoring the limitations caused by her size and also by aircraft landing and catching a wire being more sensitive to sea state than aircraft landing vertically. Sea state four was the limit as I seem to remember.
HMS Queen Elizabeth has launched and recovered F-35B in sea state six with fifty knot winds.
Those who argued for smaller carriers were arguing for reduced operating limits, but without reducing cost significantly.
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It had nothing to do with nuclear refueling and lots to do with opstempo exacerbated by sequestration funding. Carriers can't stay at sea forever, nor can they remain deployed forever. The carrier needs to return to homeport for maintenance, the ship's crew needs to return to homeport for their families and training, and the airwing needs to disembark for deep aircraft maintenance, crew training, family time, etc. When opstempo requires carriers to remain at sea and/or deployed for longer than planned and the rotation cycles are subsequently disrupted, it's just a matter of time before things stack up and everything starts falling apart. Look at the Navy's Hornet and Super Hornet fleets. There are all kinds of availability issues there and that has less than nothing to do with nuclear refueling. Their rotation/maintenance cycles were disrupted by opstempo and sequestration funding issues.
Thread Starter
Bing/KenV
It does appear I got my issues mixed up. The problem was caused by funding issues and the operational tempo. However nuclear still would have be the wrong choice for the UK, cost, politics, and manpower.
I really wanted to flag up the fact that the F-35B trials have involved operating in sea state six with fifty know winds, when some carrier critics on here claimed that the limits FS Charles De Gaulle encountered in the Mediterranean in 2011 (sea state four or higher and recovering aircraft became an issue) were some sort of fixed thing for all carriers. A 65 000 tonne ship is more stable than a circa 40 000 tonne one, and vertical landing (and rolling vertical?) and less sensitive to ship motion than catching a wire.
Trials continue: HMS Queen Elizabeth begins second phase of F-35 trials
Beyond the completed DT-1 test requirements—which were performed within the same flight envelope as will be used in the first operational test phase—the ITF also conducted about half of the testing that falls under the DT-2 threshold, or the flight envelope needed to reach initial operational capability (maritime).The ITF returned to the ship in late October for DT-2, which will concentrate on external stores testing, minimum performance short-takeoffs and SRVLs, and night operations.
The rapid progress is the result of many years of effort, despite politicians trying to make things harder for everyone.
It does appear I got my issues mixed up. The problem was caused by funding issues and the operational tempo. However nuclear still would have be the wrong choice for the UK, cost, politics, and manpower.
I really wanted to flag up the fact that the F-35B trials have involved operating in sea state six with fifty know winds, when some carrier critics on here claimed that the limits FS Charles De Gaulle encountered in the Mediterranean in 2011 (sea state four or higher and recovering aircraft became an issue) were some sort of fixed thing for all carriers. A 65 000 tonne ship is more stable than a circa 40 000 tonne one, and vertical landing (and rolling vertical?) and less sensitive to ship motion than catching a wire.
Trials continue: HMS Queen Elizabeth begins second phase of F-35 trials
Beyond the completed DT-1 test requirements—which were performed within the same flight envelope as will be used in the first operational test phase—the ITF also conducted about half of the testing that falls under the DT-2 threshold, or the flight envelope needed to reach initial operational capability (maritime).The ITF returned to the ship in late October for DT-2, which will concentrate on external stores testing, minimum performance short-takeoffs and SRVLs, and night operations.
The rapid progress is the result of many years of effort, despite politicians trying to make things harder for everyone.
Thread Starter
I assume that the F-35B shipborne trials are proceeding. I wonder if the programme currently being filmed by Chris Terrill will mention all the measures taken post SDSR 10 to preserve the skills needed to make it possible - some of which are well known, other possible ones have been hinted at....?
Anyway - I wanted to post this from the UK Defence Journal: Merlin helicopters and frigates protect US assault ship in war games
I wanted to make a few points:
1. ASW helicopters are key for ASW operations. This news page from the RN website has more information about what the Merlins aboard HM Ships Westminster and Northumberland did during the exercise. However 24/7 dipping means something like eight or nine aircraft, and that means a carrier.
2. Carriers are not the only high value units within a task group that need to be defended by frigates, destroyers, and aircraft.
3. Task Group operations lie at the heart of both deterrence and war fighting.
4. Non Towed Array sonar/Merlin equipped frigates, and Type 45 destroyers, have an ASW capability with hull mounted sonar and Wildcat, as proved recently by HMS Diamond. You may also be interested in the fighter control and other things mentioned.
Anyway - I wanted to post this from the UK Defence Journal: Merlin helicopters and frigates protect US assault ship in war games
I wanted to make a few points:
1. ASW helicopters are key for ASW operations. This news page from the RN website has more information about what the Merlins aboard HM Ships Westminster and Northumberland did during the exercise. However 24/7 dipping means something like eight or nine aircraft, and that means a carrier.
2. Carriers are not the only high value units within a task group that need to be defended by frigates, destroyers, and aircraft.
3. Task Group operations lie at the heart of both deterrence and war fighting.
4. Non Towed Array sonar/Merlin equipped frigates, and Type 45 destroyers, have an ASW capability with hull mounted sonar and Wildcat, as proved recently by HMS Diamond. You may also be interested in the fighter control and other things mentioned.
Thread Starter
I for one will look forward to Chris Terrill's programme (on TV sometime next year) about the WESTLANT 18 deployment, and the flying trials. I would also be interested to see any coverage of all the efforts post SDSR 10 to keep carrier related skills alive.
I would also like to see a programme which acknowledges that the helicopters are not just there for moving stuff around, which the last programme about Queen Elizabeth implied. The Merlin HM2 has a radar, dipping sonar, torpedoes and so on for a reason.....