Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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As above. If it’s a 2 carrier job then it’s going to be something so serious that all other jobs can be forgotten about for a while.. just like the FI. Everything must go !
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It's called prioritising, something that happens all the time. Come the day that we need to deploy two carriers concurrently, Fleet planners will look at the likely length of the deployment, look at the commitments, prioritise them, see whether some can be covered by allies and make a decision on what (if anything) gets gapped and for how long. Deploying some CVR(T) to Heathrow is hardly equivalent to deploying a 2 CVBG force.
What you're suggesting is a bit like saying we wouldn't beef up the DCA/OCA force on Akrotiri if threatened, because we had a RF deployment, or a BALTAP mission, or a Far East det ongoing.
What you're suggesting is a bit like saying we wouldn't beef up the DCA/OCA force on Akrotiri if threatened, because we had a RF deployment, or a BALTAP mission, or a Far East det ongoing.
What if Vlad [ex Ivan] is doing the prioritising for you??
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This Sunday (ie today) we are in for the first of a three part series about HMS Queen Elizabeth on BBC2 at 2000.
Crewing Up, Series 1, Britain's Biggest Warship - BBC Two
It is early 2016 and sailors begin to arrive at Rosyth dockyard in Scotland where HMS Queen Elizabeth is still under construction. Captain Jerry Kyd and his 700 sailors assemble to take up their posts on the biggest warship constructed for the Royal Navy. Their mission? To take the prototype warship to sea for the first time on dangerous make or break sea trials in the North Sea.
Before sailing, the crew have to undergo rigorous fire and flood training, but suddenly they are faced with the real thing. Has the training paid off? And how will they get the supercarrier out of the dockyard sea gate with only a few centimetres clearance either side? They will also have to sail her under the Forth road and rail bridges - no easy task when HMS Queen Elizabeth is taller than both.
With unprecedented access, this series - three years in the making - tells the behind-the-scenes story of what makes HMS Queen Elizabeth so unique and how her crew are working together to breathe life into Britain's biggest warship.
Crewing Up, Series 1, Britain's Biggest Warship - BBC Two
It is early 2016 and sailors begin to arrive at Rosyth dockyard in Scotland where HMS Queen Elizabeth is still under construction. Captain Jerry Kyd and his 700 sailors assemble to take up their posts on the biggest warship constructed for the Royal Navy. Their mission? To take the prototype warship to sea for the first time on dangerous make or break sea trials in the North Sea.
Before sailing, the crew have to undergo rigorous fire and flood training, but suddenly they are faced with the real thing. Has the training paid off? And how will they get the supercarrier out of the dockyard sea gate with only a few centimetres clearance either side? They will also have to sail her under the Forth road and rail bridges - no easy task when HMS Queen Elizabeth is taller than both.
With unprecedented access, this series - three years in the making - tells the behind-the-scenes story of what makes HMS Queen Elizabeth so unique and how her crew are working together to breathe life into Britain's biggest warship.
The words were actually spoken by one of the senior characters involved. If you've never taken a new ship to sea, watch the programme to understand their validity.
Thread Starter
I watched it on BBC iPlayer last night. Good to see another RN documentary produced by Chris Terrill - the first being HMS Brilliant, about the frigate of the same name, on operations in the Adriatic in 1994 and broadcast the following year. As I remember the Sea Harriers from HMS Invincible (I think) did put in an appearance for an air defence exercise, and one of them hovered and did a wave afterwards.
The sailors aboard Queen Elizabeth were indeed breathing life into their ship as they took over compartments, and tested and used more and more equipment, carrying out training to prepare for life at sea, and bonding as a ship's company. The Cdr (Air) made the point, so often missed by the "just a floating airfield" brigade, that a carrier takes all the thing associated with a normal air base and integrates them into a finite space, which then moves.
As for training the flight deck party, it was good seeing the mighty Sea Harrier continuing to serve Navy and nation in retirement, training chockheads at the RN School of Flight Deck Operations at RNAS Culdrose.
This was a programme about people far more technology, although of course the two are inextricably linked. I will look forward to the next two episodes.
The sailors aboard Queen Elizabeth were indeed breathing life into their ship as they took over compartments, and tested and used more and more equipment, carrying out training to prepare for life at sea, and bonding as a ship's company. The Cdr (Air) made the point, so often missed by the "just a floating airfield" brigade, that a carrier takes all the thing associated with a normal air base and integrates them into a finite space, which then moves.
As for training the flight deck party, it was good seeing the mighty Sea Harrier continuing to serve Navy and nation in retirement, training chockheads at the RN School of Flight Deck Operations at RNAS Culdrose.
This was a programme about people far more technology, although of course the two are inextricably linked. I will look forward to the next two episodes.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 21st Apr 2018 at 10:25.
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Go look at my posts... for years I've supported more investment in the Armed Forces, especially the RN.
more Astutes, more T45's, at least a one for one buy of the T26', and an Ocean replacement and the MPA in quantity. Dozens of posts.
I've also highlighted the serious under manning problem and the need to spend a lot more... even if it means tax increases across the board. I'm monomaniac on the duty of politicians to stand up and tell the truth about defence.
The True Believers on here believe, sincerely, that a carrier capability is worth having at almost any cost. A lot of others on here see it as a nice to have but that there is a very serious risk that it will totally skew the deployment and use of our small surface fleet away from what has been seen as critical tasks.
Doesn't make anyone a troll or a traitor to have a different view.........
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HH
Why do you think that a carrier will need escorting, but an LPH (replacing Ocean) will not? Will the enemy not want to attack her?
By replacement what do you mean? Another 20 000 tonne ship or a larger vessel, not unlike the Americans ones at 40 000 tonnes or so, roughly the size of FS Charles De Gaulle? The US amphibious flat tops all operate AV-8B moving to F-35B. A 20 000 ship is not half the cost of a 40 000 tonne one, nor a third of the cost of a 60 000 tonne one. The manning costs will be similar.
This might interest you: Why Smaller Carriers would be a bad idea for the Royal Navy
Lastly, the critical tasks for the surface fleet (and SSNs) are supporting Continuous At Sea Deterrence, Kipion in the Gulf, and providing a task group capability. For the last few years that has been LPH/LPD based, soon it will return to being carrier based.
Why do you think that a carrier will need escorting, but an LPH (replacing Ocean) will not? Will the enemy not want to attack her?
By replacement what do you mean? Another 20 000 tonne ship or a larger vessel, not unlike the Americans ones at 40 000 tonnes or so, roughly the size of FS Charles De Gaulle? The US amphibious flat tops all operate AV-8B moving to F-35B. A 20 000 ship is not half the cost of a 40 000 tonne one, nor a third of the cost of a 60 000 tonne one. The manning costs will be similar.
This might interest you: Why Smaller Carriers would be a bad idea for the Royal Navy
Lastly, the critical tasks for the surface fleet (and SSNs) are supporting Continuous At Sea Deterrence, Kipion in the Gulf, and providing a task group capability. For the last few years that has been LPH/LPD based, soon it will return to being carrier based.
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WEBF - we're never going to agree on the carrier question - God knows we've been at long enough
Personally looking forward I'm more concerned about the 7th Astute and the Class 26 program - both of which need to be rapidly and fully funded ... I think I hear slithering in Whitehall ... again
Personally looking forward I'm more concerned about the 7th Astute and the Class 26 program - both of which need to be rapidly and fully funded ... I think I hear slithering in Whitehall ... again
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WEBF - we're never going to agree on the carrier question - God knows we've been at long enough
Personally looking forward I'm more concerned about the 7th Astute and the Class 26 program - both of which need to be rapidly and fully funded ... I think I hear slithering in Whitehall ... again
Personally looking forward I'm more concerned about the 7th Astute and the Class 26 program - both of which need to be rapidly and fully funded ... I think I hear slithering in Whitehall ... again
What’s your military experience mate? Curious only, as you seem to comment so forcibly and opinionated about Defence procurement and policy?
What’s your military experience mate? Curious only, as you seem to comment so forcibly and opinionated about Defence procurement and policy?
In any debate around whether the carriers have "skewed" the fleet, it needs to be remembered that the current official UK intention is to be able to operationally deploy one carrier at any given time - not two. The rationale behind the decision to maintain two vessels was to ensure the availability of one high readiness carrier at all times. Without the second vessel, the refit cycle would mean a single carrier being available to deploy for only around 5 years out of every eight.
So the current escort fleet is built around escorting a single carrier group and as far as I know there has never been an intention to do more than that. The UK has 14 "high end" escorts (6 x T45 and 8 x towed-sonar T23) and the intention is to accompany the carrier with two of each type whenever it's deployed to a high risk area.
That really should be readily possible with 14 high end escorts. In fact for short term "surges" it should be possible to generate more than 4. And that's without factoring in the other 5 general purpose T23s (to be replaced by T31s) and the 5 new 90 metre OPVs, which between them can cover a range of "other" tasking.
None of which is to say that the RN doesn't need more escorts - it does. And the MoD does need to sort manning out so that the RN can fully utilise the assets it already has. But manpower problems aside, which result from policy decisions unrelated to the carriers, the argument that the RN can't escort a carrier, or can't do that while doing other things at the same time - doesn't really stack up.
It's only when we start assuming that the RN will routinely operate both carriers concurrently that things get tight - but as I say that is not (yet) the officially stated intention, as far as I'm aware.
I think it's acknowledged that there is the potential to operate both carriers at the same time in extremis - but as has been said, in such serious circumstances we'd be prioritising fairly fiercely anyway.
So the current escort fleet is built around escorting a single carrier group and as far as I know there has never been an intention to do more than that. The UK has 14 "high end" escorts (6 x T45 and 8 x towed-sonar T23) and the intention is to accompany the carrier with two of each type whenever it's deployed to a high risk area.
That really should be readily possible with 14 high end escorts. In fact for short term "surges" it should be possible to generate more than 4. And that's without factoring in the other 5 general purpose T23s (to be replaced by T31s) and the 5 new 90 metre OPVs, which between them can cover a range of "other" tasking.
None of which is to say that the RN doesn't need more escorts - it does. And the MoD does need to sort manning out so that the RN can fully utilise the assets it already has. But manpower problems aside, which result from policy decisions unrelated to the carriers, the argument that the RN can't escort a carrier, or can't do that while doing other things at the same time - doesn't really stack up.
It's only when we start assuming that the RN will routinely operate both carriers concurrently that things get tight - but as I say that is not (yet) the officially stated intention, as far as I'm aware.
I think it's acknowledged that there is the potential to operate both carriers at the same time in extremis - but as has been said, in such serious circumstances we'd be prioritising fairly fiercely anyway.
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Meanwhile work goes on.
http://www.janes.com/images/assets/6..._Elizabeth.pdf
http://www.janes.com/images/assets/6..._Elizabeth.pdf
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Meanwhile work goes on.
http://www.janes.com/images/assets/6..._Elizabeth.pdf
http://www.janes.com/images/assets/6..._Elizabeth.pdf
These capabilities are not delivered by Amazon by Thursday!!
Possibly this complexity is the Achilles heel of the entire concept.
Weapons that take a generation to bring into service are not practical for warfare, as they cannot be replaced if lost.
The Falklands effort saw a lot of creative and immediate improvisation. It might be useful for the RN to try to build on that achievement, even if only in studies, to stay abreast of what might usefully be done using such non standard methods.
Weapons that take a generation to bring into service are not practical for warfare, as they cannot be replaced if lost.
The Falklands effort saw a lot of creative and immediate improvisation. It might be useful for the RN to try to build on that achievement, even if only in studies, to stay abreast of what might usefully be done using such non standard methods.