Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Any estimates on how long it would take to install even a limited UCAV cats and traps capability? A year??
wasn't it designed for but not fitted steam cats and traps. I have no idea if it would be easier or harder to fit in a UCAV emals (or even it exists on paper). But imagine it would happen same time as its midlife refit
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It was, it wasn’t, it was, it wasn’t…
Will that mean adding an angled deck?
Will that mean adding an angled deck?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Not necessarily. Navy Lookout examined the options when the RFI was issued, angles deck was just one of them.
https://www.navylookout.com/cats-tra...unched-drones/
https://www.navylookout.com/cats-tra...unched-drones/
Perhaps MI-6 can find a bargain basement deal somewhere.
But the R&D that went into EMALS was paid for by the US Taxpayer - I would think at least part of the license fees belong to them.
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I said early on in the thread that it was stupid to build the carriers to be dependant on one type of aircraft and that it needed the flexibility of a cat and trap…
Typical government and MOD penny pinching, spend billions on Carriers but fail at the last hurdle in giving the ships the capability to cross deck with other types or future developments.
Well no doubt now they will only decide to go ahaed after the POW is repaired meaning more time out of service instead of running the projects in parallel.
Typical government and MOD penny pinching, spend billions on Carriers but fail at the last hurdle in giving the ships the capability to cross deck with other types or future developments.
Well no doubt now they will only decide to go ahaed after the POW is repaired meaning more time out of service instead of running the projects in parallel.
Thread Starter
Before getting too excited, we should try to remember that this is pre decision and future possibilities are being explored. This year HMS Prince of Wales will deploy to the Western Atlantic for SRVL trials, and additionally she will do trials of a STOL UAV system. This will help assess the feasibility of STOL UAV operation alongside F-35B and Merlin operations.
One of the reasons for experimentation is to take the AEW role away from the Crowsnest roled/fitted Merlins can return to the critical ASW role - a core carrier role. To save money not all the Merlins were upgraded from HM1 to HM2. Interestingly the aircraft is still being produced.
Poland wants to buy 22 AW101 transport helicopters - Gagadget
The Polish Navy will receive the first of four AW101 helicopters this summer. The contract, worth more than $400 million, was signed four years ago. At the same time Poland wants to order more than 20 more helicopters.
If only we could take the opportunity to purchase a few more ASW Merlins at the same time - perhaps six to eight to cover the Crowsnest cabs?
For some reason ASW frequently gets overlooked, yet it is one of the reasons for having carriers and has been since the Second World War.
One of the reasons for experimentation is to take the AEW role away from the Crowsnest roled/fitted Merlins can return to the critical ASW role - a core carrier role. To save money not all the Merlins were upgraded from HM1 to HM2. Interestingly the aircraft is still being produced.
Poland wants to buy 22 AW101 transport helicopters - Gagadget
The Polish Navy will receive the first of four AW101 helicopters this summer. The contract, worth more than $400 million, was signed four years ago. At the same time Poland wants to order more than 20 more helicopters.
If only we could take the opportunity to purchase a few more ASW Merlins at the same time - perhaps six to eight to cover the Crowsnest cabs?
For some reason ASW frequently gets overlooked, yet it is one of the reasons for having carriers and has been since the Second World War.
In my previous ASW related post, I forgot to include this video - an interview with someone who had an interesting career after joining the Royal Navy partly to escape academia, opted for an Engineering route as he would get a degree that way, and they as an Air Engineer Officer applied to become a Maintenance Test Pilot and ended up doing front line tours on the ASW Sea King and the Lynx:
Combat in the Falklands | Royal Navy Lynx | LLH Podcast EP 18 - YouTube
He mentions his time flying the ASW Sea King from HMS Hermes in the days before Sea Harrier, when she was being used as an ASW carrier. If less had been made of carriers operating in the Indian Ocean and Far East back then, and more of their NATO role then we all would have been better off. The staff work relating to the proposed new carriers in the early 1960s was all based around East of Suez scenarios which was one of the reasons they were vulnerable to the politicians' axe, which led the the axing of the large carriers, yet the need to put multiple ASW helicopters aboard a single ship as part of NATO ASW capabilities led to the through deck cruiser idea, which was large enough to carry a few V/STOL aircraft to deal with the Soviet Bears that aided the Soviet submarines with reconnaissance and long range targeting - and luckily enough we had Harrier which could be converted to Sea Harrier and given a radar.
The Americans committed over half their carriers to the NATO theatre. It has been discussed at length in various places, not just PPRuNe: Discussion regarding the Sea Control role of the carrier - starting with NATO and the Cold War
The interview also mentions the teaming of carrier based helicopters doing the hunting, and the frigate/destroyer based Wasps/Lynx (and Wildcat these days) to deliver the weapons.
Combat in the Falklands | Royal Navy Lynx | LLH Podcast EP 18 - YouTube
He mentions his time flying the ASW Sea King from HMS Hermes in the days before Sea Harrier, when she was being used as an ASW carrier. If less had been made of carriers operating in the Indian Ocean and Far East back then, and more of their NATO role then we all would have been better off. The staff work relating to the proposed new carriers in the early 1960s was all based around East of Suez scenarios which was one of the reasons they were vulnerable to the politicians' axe, which led the the axing of the large carriers, yet the need to put multiple ASW helicopters aboard a single ship as part of NATO ASW capabilities led to the through deck cruiser idea, which was large enough to carry a few V/STOL aircraft to deal with the Soviet Bears that aided the Soviet submarines with reconnaissance and long range targeting - and luckily enough we had Harrier which could be converted to Sea Harrier and given a radar.
The Americans committed over half their carriers to the NATO theatre. It has been discussed at length in various places, not just PPRuNe: Discussion regarding the Sea Control role of the carrier - starting with NATO and the Cold War
The interview also mentions the teaming of carrier based helicopters doing the hunting, and the frigate/destroyer based Wasps/Lynx (and Wildcat these days) to deliver the weapons.
The unique selling point of the ASW helicopter is dipping sonar - and I remember the old and bold PWO(U) explaining that the 2087 sonar fitted to the ASW frigate and the Merlin's dipping sonar are meant to work together. He also said that to protect a force/task group (yes this is where the phrase 'task group ASW' was muttered) you use a carrier and multiple helicopters.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
Thales sonar - YouTube
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
Thales sonar - YouTube
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
"If only we could take the opportunity to purchase a few more ASW Merlins at the same time - perhaps six to eight to cover the Crowsnest cabs?"
No money - I suspect we're looking at further RN cuts (sorry - deferrals) not enhancements
No money - I suspect we're looking at further RN cuts (sorry - deferrals) not enhancements
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Okay, @rich_scott2 @navalnewscom reports that @RoyalMarines Col Phil Kelly has been talking about "Project Ark Royal" the @RoyalNavy's study into catapults & arrester gear for uncrewed aircraft aboard @HMSQNLZ & @HMSPWLS.
So, time for another little "let's unpack this" #thread 🧵
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...412527113.html
So, time for another little "let's unpack this" #thread 🧵
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...412527113.html
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.navylookout.com/hms-west...vice-in-doubt/
HMS Westminster refit suspended and her return to service in doubt
Unofficial naval sources say that the frigate HMS Westminster has been found to be in such a poor state that it would be difficult to justify the expense of repairs and her refit has been stopped, pending a decision on her future.…
If HMS Westminster is axed, it would take RN frigate numbers down to just 10, although this will return to ‘full strength’ by the mid-2030s as 13 new frigates are either under construction or on order. We will not repeat in detail here all the obvious risks and additional pressures on the fleet that will be created by further loss of escorts during the intervening period.
HMS Westminster refit suspended and her return to service in doubt
Unofficial naval sources say that the frigate HMS Westminster has been found to be in such a poor state that it would be difficult to justify the expense of repairs and her refit has been stopped, pending a decision on her future.…
If HMS Westminster is axed, it would take RN frigate numbers down to just 10, although this will return to ‘full strength’ by the mid-2030s as 13 new frigates are either under construction or on order. We will not repeat in detail here all the obvious risks and additional pressures on the fleet that will be created by further loss of escorts during the intervening period.
Ten frigates - so using the usual metric that means 3-4 available. Looks like we'll need to continue borrowing some to keep the Carrier group in being
And how we'd cover 2 carriers in seperate locations is going to be a stretch
And how we'd cover 2 carriers in seperate locations is going to be a stretch
The idea of a catapult on the bow alongside the Ski ramp is an interesting one
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https://www.navylookout.com/hms-west...vice-in-doubt/
HMS Westminster refit suspended and her return to service in doubt
Unofficial naval sources say that the frigate HMS Westminster has been found to be in such a poor state that it would be difficult to justify the expense of repairs and her refit has been stopped, pending a decision on her future.…
If HMS Westminster is axed, it would take RN frigate numbers down to just 10, although this will return to ‘full strength’ by the mid-2030s as 13 new frigates are either under construction or on order. We will not repeat in detail here all the obvious risks and additional pressures on the fleet that will be created by further loss of escorts during the intervening period.
HMS Westminster refit suspended and her return to service in doubt
Unofficial naval sources say that the frigate HMS Westminster has been found to be in such a poor state that it would be difficult to justify the expense of repairs and her refit has been stopped, pending a decision on her future.…
If HMS Westminster is axed, it would take RN frigate numbers down to just 10, although this will return to ‘full strength’ by the mid-2030s as 13 new frigates are either under construction or on order. We will not repeat in detail here all the obvious risks and additional pressures on the fleet that will be created by further loss of escorts during the intervening period.
https://www.naval-technology.com/fea...e-23-frigates/
" or is this just an excuse to bin it?"
I think that's the case- reading ORAC's article
he problem is "spending money"
"The Type 23 LIFEX programme has taken much longer and cost far more than originally anticipated as serious age-related obsolescence, mechanical and structural problems have come to light. HMS Iron Duke returned to her home base in Portsmouth recently, 53 months after starting her LIFEX refit. The RN says the project was the most complex of any undertaken on the Type 23s and structural repairs to the hull involved almost twice the work of any previous refit in the class. The cost implications are obvious and the additional expense of getting one ship to sea may have cannibalised the budget available for others."
I think that's the case- reading ORAC's article
he problem is "spending money"
"The Type 23 LIFEX programme has taken much longer and cost far more than originally anticipated as serious age-related obsolescence, mechanical and structural problems have come to light. HMS Iron Duke returned to her home base in Portsmouth recently, 53 months after starting her LIFEX refit. The RN says the project was the most complex of any undertaken on the Type 23s and structural repairs to the hull involved almost twice the work of any previous refit in the class. The cost implications are obvious and the additional expense of getting one ship to sea may have cannibalised the budget available for others."
Nutty, the two T23s laid up are both GP versions lacking the Type 2087 sonar of the ASW versions and would require their previously declared unaffordable LIFEX refits to return to service.
Following her 2004 refit (including 2087) Westminster had Merlin flight (up to October 2021 at least - excluding 2013) but more recently a Martlet fitted Wildcat (during Ex Atlantic Thunder in 2022) not sure if that was due to further strain on the Merlin fleet, possibly due to those number of airframes receiving the Crowsnest adaptations, or just the Martlet trials.
Following her 2004 refit (including 2087) Westminster had Merlin flight (up to October 2021 at least - excluding 2013) but more recently a Martlet fitted Wildcat (during Ex Atlantic Thunder in 2022) not sure if that was due to further strain on the Merlin fleet, possibly due to those number of airframes receiving the Crowsnest adaptations, or just the Martlet trials.
It's probably paused because - funny old thing - there's a command paper out shortly and binning a refit as an "option" will be under consideration, which is not necessarily the same thing as a done deal. Happened with Grafton in 2006 and with RFA Fort George in 2010.