Future Carrier (Including Costs)
WEBF - there's a whole thread on the TV programme
Its been running for 3 weeks......................
Its been running for 3 weeks......................
The following users liked this post:
The Mail on Sunday apparently has stated that problems with the prop shafts and associated couplings were known by shipbuilders during construction at Rosyth.
The anomalies were deemed to be within tolerance and no fault was found. If the problems were so great, how come they were not detected during sea trials and on the various transits that the vessel did subsequently. Yet became catastrophic on putting to sea for important exercises.
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Carrier Issues
IG
The anomalies were deemed to be within tolerance and no fault was found. If the problems were so great, how come they were not detected during sea trials and on the various transits that the vessel did subsequently. Yet became catastrophic on putting to sea for important exercises.
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Carrier Issues
IG
The Mail on Sunday apparently has stated that problems with the prop shafts and associated couplings were known by shipbuilders during construction at Rosyth.
The anomalies were deemed to be within tolerance and no fault was found. If the problems were so great, how come they were not detected during sea trials and on the various transits that the vessel did subsequently. Yet became catastrophic on putting to sea for important exercises.
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Carrier Issues
IG
The anomalies were deemed to be within tolerance and no fault was found. If the problems were so great, how come they were not detected during sea trials and on the various transits that the vessel did subsequently. Yet became catastrophic on putting to sea for important exercises.
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Carrier Issues
IG
"Defence sources", "elementary mistakes" - not exactly a fount of detail. Misalignment could refer to the overall shaft - or locally to the couplings, or more precisely their installation. The actual report will be interesting.
The following users liked this post:
Engineers reportedly found ‘elementary misalignment’ mistakes on both the starboard and portside shafts.
The "Report" shall be a finger pointing exercise for sure with no one wanting to take responsibility for what has happened.
The real question is will all parties work together to ensure no one plays the Donkey in the Pin the Tail game.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,880
Received 2,823 Likes
on
1,203 Posts
On the programme that featured the Elizabeth prior to Wales was even launched didn’t they find cracked mounts on Elizabeth?
BTW she has set sail and we hadn’t enough munitions to fully stock her.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...bells-ringing/
BTW she has set sail and we hadn’t enough munitions to fully stock her.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...bells-ringing/
HMS Queen Elizabeth has set sail on a month-long training cruise without a full stock of ammunition and fighter jets due to “severe supply shortages”, it has been reported.
The ship, the most powerful built for the Royal Navy, left a jetty near Faslane in Scotland last week.
Admiral Lord West, a former first sea lord and chief of the naval staff, said the only reason the ship left the rearming point without stocking up fully was due to a “shortage of the weapons it needs”.
READ MORE
Former Navy chief warns of maritime threat to UK security“I would be very surprised if we have got enough weapon stocks to fully arm Queen Elizabeth,” he told the i newspaper. “These ships need to be fully stocked all the time but we have not got the weapons.
“That ships are sailing without their full outfit of missiles and ammunition is outrageous. Once a ship sails, you never know what’s going happen. It needs to be ready at all times.”
The ship, the most powerful built for the Royal Navy, left a jetty near Faslane in Scotland last week.
Admiral Lord West, a former first sea lord and chief of the naval staff, said the only reason the ship left the rearming point without stocking up fully was due to a “shortage of the weapons it needs”.
READ MORE
Former Navy chief warns of maritime threat to UK security“I would be very surprised if we have got enough weapon stocks to fully arm Queen Elizabeth,” he told the i newspaper. “These ships need to be fully stocked all the time but we have not got the weapons.
“That ships are sailing without their full outfit of missiles and ammunition is outrageous. Once a ship sails, you never know what’s going happen. It needs to be ready at all times.”
Don't feel bad Nutty.....I know of a time when US Warships offloaded Ammunition before entering Port for a Repairs and Upkeep......so ships setting out on deployment could upload what had just been offloaded.
Welcome to a wartime situation with peacetime logistics.
Welcome to a wartime situation with peacetime logistics.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64722723The pilot of a British fighter jet, which crashed off a Royal Navy aircraft carrier, has spoken of his relief at managing to eject from the £100m F-35.
Speaking shortly after the incident in November 2021, the pilot known as Hux said he only had seconds to react. An official investigation concluded the sudden loss of power on take off was probably caused by a cover being left on one of the aircraft's jet intakes. His story is included in a BBC series called The Warship: Tour of Duty.
The documentary also reveals how the Royal Navy's HMS Queen Elizabeth ship was harassed by Russian aircraft and how it played a risky game of hide-and-seek with the Chinese Navy.
The Royal Navy pilot spoke to the film-makers shortly after he was rescued and was still suffering from cuts and bruises caused by the high-speed ejection. He describes how the jet suddenly lost acceleration: "I tried for emergency power - that didn't work, then I tried to slap on the brakes - that didn't work either… so I kind of knew it was going to roll off the ship." Hux's life was saved by his ejector seat - which he describes as the most advanced in the world. That and extremely good luck. As his parachute activated, he says he saw the sea beneath him "and then a second later I could see the flight deck of the ship starting to appear beneath me". He just managed to make it on to the deck - by a few feet - before being pulled to safety. If he had not landed on the carrier, he risked being dragged under the 65,000-tonne warship.
Leaked video from the ship's on-board camera showed the moment the F-35 fell into the sea.
The ejection left Hux with minor injuries to his neck An official investigation concluded that the sudden loss of power was probably caused by a blockage - a cover mistakenly left on a jet intake. The aircraft - the most advanced stealth fighter in the world which is operated jointly in the UK by the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force - was later recovered from the sea bed to ensure it did not fall into the wrong hands. Chris Terrill, who filmed the documentary, said the F-35 crash was "a shock to everyone", but said the response of the ship's company was "as immediate as it was extraordinary".
"An aircraft might have been lost but there was a pilot, a shipmate, who had to be saved," he said. "Training kicked in but there was an extra energy and urgency to the sailors' execution of their emergency procedures. It was terrifying but inspiring to see." The six-part series follows HMS Queen Elizabeth's eight-month, 49,000-nautical mile voyage to the Pacific Ocean and back last year.
Speaking shortly after the incident in November 2021, the pilot known as Hux said he only had seconds to react. An official investigation concluded the sudden loss of power on take off was probably caused by a cover being left on one of the aircraft's jet intakes. His story is included in a BBC series called The Warship: Tour of Duty.
The documentary also reveals how the Royal Navy's HMS Queen Elizabeth ship was harassed by Russian aircraft and how it played a risky game of hide-and-seek with the Chinese Navy.
The Royal Navy pilot spoke to the film-makers shortly after he was rescued and was still suffering from cuts and bruises caused by the high-speed ejection. He describes how the jet suddenly lost acceleration: "I tried for emergency power - that didn't work, then I tried to slap on the brakes - that didn't work either… so I kind of knew it was going to roll off the ship." Hux's life was saved by his ejector seat - which he describes as the most advanced in the world. That and extremely good luck. As his parachute activated, he says he saw the sea beneath him "and then a second later I could see the flight deck of the ship starting to appear beneath me". He just managed to make it on to the deck - by a few feet - before being pulled to safety. If he had not landed on the carrier, he risked being dragged under the 65,000-tonne warship.
Leaked video from the ship's on-board camera showed the moment the F-35 fell into the sea.
The ejection left Hux with minor injuries to his neck An official investigation concluded that the sudden loss of power was probably caused by a blockage - a cover mistakenly left on a jet intake. The aircraft - the most advanced stealth fighter in the world which is operated jointly in the UK by the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force - was later recovered from the sea bed to ensure it did not fall into the wrong hands. Chris Terrill, who filmed the documentary, said the F-35 crash was "a shock to everyone", but said the response of the ship's company was "as immediate as it was extraordinary".
"An aircraft might have been lost but there was a pilot, a shipmate, who had to be saved," he said. "Training kicked in but there was an extra energy and urgency to the sailors' execution of their emergency procedures. It was terrifying but inspiring to see." The six-part series follows HMS Queen Elizabeth's eight-month, 49,000-nautical mile voyage to the Pacific Ocean and back last year.
BTW she has set sail and we hadn’t enough munitions to fully stock her.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...bells-ringing/
https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...bells-ringing/
Oh! Good!
Thus we are to believe that the ship is fully stocked and has a full complement of aircraft and aircrew. We can sleep easy in our beds.
Meanwhile, back at base ................
Thus we are to believe that the ship is fully stocked and has a full complement of aircraft and aircrew. We can sleep easy in our beds.
Meanwhile, back at base ................
Thread Starter
The BBC are currently showing a six part documentary based aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth during the CSG21 deployment - which included the embarkation of USMC jets as well as the RN/RAF ones. Like all naval documentaries it has included things such as people working in the galley, the watchkeepers on the bridge, firefighting and first aid training, close range gunnery, and sailors having to deal with gash.
Like many documentaries I have seen about US Navy carriers, it has included aircraft launches and recoveries, the aircraft being marshalled on deck, and replenishment at sea - the nuclear powered carriers still need supplying with aviation fuel, weapons, and provisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXg9QSdf79k&t=3s
The second episode was shown on BBC2 on Sunday 29 January, and featured things such as F-35B Lightnings being launched on missions against terrorists in Syria and into the Black Sea, jets being launched in response to approaching Russian aircraft under the control of one of the destroyers, and Merlins being launched for surface search and for ASW - presumably cued by one of the frigates. The talk (by the Strike Group staff types) was of 'protecting the force', as opposed to the over simplified 'protecting the carrier'.
The fourth episode (Sunday 12 February) featured ASW.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4wZ2wG...SIkaIECMiOmarEThe detection of a possible submarine by HMS Richmond and the use of sonobuoys by the Merlin reminds me of comment by a former USN aviator that a surface warship going active on sonar (particularly LFAS) gives the game away to the submarine looking for the task group. Whilst going active with your towed array allows you to cue the ASW helicopter with dipping sonar, passive detection means a larger search area, so dipping sonar is less useful.
Like many documentaries I have seen about US Navy carriers, it has included aircraft launches and recoveries, the aircraft being marshalled on deck, and replenishment at sea - the nuclear powered carriers still need supplying with aviation fuel, weapons, and provisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXg9QSdf79k&t=3s
The second episode was shown on BBC2 on Sunday 29 January, and featured things such as F-35B Lightnings being launched on missions against terrorists in Syria and into the Black Sea, jets being launched in response to approaching Russian aircraft under the control of one of the destroyers, and Merlins being launched for surface search and for ASW - presumably cued by one of the frigates. The talk (by the Strike Group staff types) was of 'protecting the force', as opposed to the over simplified 'protecting the carrier'.
The fourth episode (Sunday 12 February) featured ASW.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4wZ2wG...SIkaIECMiOmarEThe detection of a possible submarine by HMS Richmond and the use of sonobuoys by the Merlin reminds me of comment by a former USN aviator that a surface warship going active on sonar (particularly LFAS) gives the game away to the submarine looking for the task group. Whilst going active with your towed array allows you to cue the ASW helicopter with dipping sonar, passive detection means a larger search area, so dipping sonar is less useful.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
Thread Starter
UK and France commit to greater defence cooperation at Paris summit - MOD
The Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin said:
"As our leaders meet in Paris, the British and French Armed Forces are working together in response to Russian aggression in Europe, and to protect our shared values and interests across the globe. Now we will deepen our cooperation be it supporting Ukraine today or meeting the challenges of tomorrow, from security in the Arctic to carrier deployments in the Pacific.
We will also pursue a host of joint endeavours from intelligence sharing to complex weapon development. This reflects the mutual respect and confidence that exists between us, our shared technological ambitions, our unwavering commitment to NATO and our recognition that the security of Europe and the Atlantic is tied to that of the wider world."
During the summit, the UK and France agreed to coordinate deployments of our aircraft carriers to provide complementary and a more persistent European presence in regions of shared interest. This will mean routinely providing support for each other’s task groups, cooperating in exercises to prepare our carriers for warfighting, and explore opportunities for the United Kingdom and France to demonstrate the sequencing of more persistent European carrier strike group presence in the Indo-Pacific...
The Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin said:
"As our leaders meet in Paris, the British and French Armed Forces are working together in response to Russian aggression in Europe, and to protect our shared values and interests across the globe. Now we will deepen our cooperation be it supporting Ukraine today or meeting the challenges of tomorrow, from security in the Arctic to carrier deployments in the Pacific.
We will also pursue a host of joint endeavours from intelligence sharing to complex weapon development. This reflects the mutual respect and confidence that exists between us, our shared technological ambitions, our unwavering commitment to NATO and our recognition that the security of Europe and the Atlantic is tied to that of the wider world."
During the summit, the UK and France agreed to coordinate deployments of our aircraft carriers to provide complementary and a more persistent European presence in regions of shared interest. This will mean routinely providing support for each other’s task groups, cooperating in exercises to prepare our carriers for warfighting, and explore opportunities for the United Kingdom and France to demonstrate the sequencing of more persistent European carrier strike group presence in the Indo-Pacific...
working together in response to Russian aggression in Europe, and to protect our shared values and interests across the globe.
there's a man planning a visit to French Polynesia if ever there was
there's a man planning a visit to French Polynesia if ever there was
The following 2 users liked this post by Asturias56:
The unique selling point of the ASW helicopter is dipping sonar - and I remember the old and bold PWO(U) explaining that the 2087 sonar fitted to the ASW frigate and the Merlin's dipping sonar are meant to work together. He also said that to protect a force/task group (yes this is where the phrase 'task group ASW' was muttered) you use a carrier and multiple helicopters.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
Thales sonar - YouTube
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
Thales sonar - YouTube
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
The same applies to the F-35B fleet. CSG21 took 8 aircraft of 617 squadron on the carrier for the deployment (shame that they only managed to bring 7 back...) and that 8 was the entire front line strength of the UK F-35B force, a force that is the only UK dedicated attack force, that theoretically replaced the Sea Harrier, Harrier GR9 and the Tornado GR4 fleets. We learnt from the recent MoD announcements that the situation in 2023 is somewhat improved, they now have 12 F-35B Lightnings and 13 pilots on 617 Squadron. So that is the replacement for the aforementioned fleets with their capability and numbers. Sure things are going to improve, but immeasurably slowly! The 2nd front line F-35B Lightning squadron (809NAS) is due to form around the end of the year, even though they have yet to start the infrastructure build at Marham to house them! Then we learn that the 3rd operational squadron "will form in 2033." 2033! That's ten years after the 2nd squadron.
The carrier capability of the Royal Navy is an illusory fake, it is an intangible nothing with no numbers to make it worthwhile or effective. It is a great shame and could have been oh so different if we had VSO's with an ounce of a spine. And don't pass off the blame to the politicians. We still have one of the largest defence budgets in the world, it is just spent extremely badly.
The following 6 users liked this post by pr00ne:
excellent post - whatever anyone's views on the RN carriers the rate of buying F-35's is a disgrace
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
RE #6774
On current plans - two squadrons of 12 aircraft (809 stand up at the end of 2023). Full operational capability by 2025 with 24 aircraft (or 36 with USMC support) "tailored" to meet requirements. The procurement figure still hovers around 48 "by 2025" which sounds optimistic. The eventual figure is 74 (from an original 138) "across the lifetime of the project". It is a moveable feast when an F-35B (it's weapons bay bulging with Spear3/Spear-EW/Meteor) will be recovered back onboard from a rolling vertical landing. CSG21 was a credit to the senior service after the chaos and confusion of SDSR 2010, but at what cost. The best way to protect your investment is to Remove Before Flight before launching an £88 million kite off the ramp and into the sea.
On current plans - two squadrons of 12 aircraft (809 stand up at the end of 2023). Full operational capability by 2025 with 24 aircraft (or 36 with USMC support) "tailored" to meet requirements. The procurement figure still hovers around 48 "by 2025" which sounds optimistic. The eventual figure is 74 (from an original 138) "across the lifetime of the project". It is a moveable feast when an F-35B (it's weapons bay bulging with Spear3/Spear-EW/Meteor) will be recovered back onboard from a rolling vertical landing. CSG21 was a credit to the senior service after the chaos and confusion of SDSR 2010, but at what cost. The best way to protect your investment is to Remove Before Flight before launching an £88 million kite off the ramp and into the sea.
excellent post - whatever anyone's views on the RN carriers the rate of buying F-35's is a disgrace
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
And just to add some grist to the mill, Lockheed-Martin seriously embarrassed the MoD by announcing recently that the UK had moved it's deliveries to the right in order to save money.
Thread Starter
All fine and dandy WEBF, but you omit one major flaw. And that is that there are simply not enough aircraft to provide a meaningful capability! You trumpet the Merlin ASW capability, and I am sure that it is indeed world beating, but, and it is a huge but, how many HM2's did 820 NAS deploy onboard the carrier on CSG21? Was it 3? or 4? There are a total of 30 RN Merlin HM2's, and they have to equip the ASW Sonar equipped Type 23 Frigates, deploy to Prestwick on boomer cover, provide the AEW Crowsnest capability on dedicated aircraft, equip 824 NAS training squadron, provide trials aircraft for Boscombe Down RWTS, and on top of this there always seems to be 3 or 4 of them at Leonardo's Yeovil plant. A fine theoretical capability, but deployed in such penny packet numbers as to be basically meaningless.
The same applies to the F-35B fleet. CSG21 took 8 aircraft of 617 squadron on the carrier for the deployment (shame that they only managed to bring 7 back...) and that 8 was the entire front line strength of the UK F-35B force, a force that is the only UK dedicated attack force, that theoretically replaced the Sea Harrier, Harrier GR9 and the Tornado GR4 fleets. We learnt from the recent MoD announcements that the situation in 2023 is somewhat improved, they now have 12 F-35B Lightnings and 13 pilots on 617 Squadron. So that is the replacement for the aforementioned fleets with their capability and numbers. Sure things are going to improve, but immeasurably slowly! The 2nd front line F-35B Lightning squadron (809NAS) is due to form around the end of the year, even though they have yet to start the infrastructure build at Marham to house them! Then we learn that the 3rd operational squadron "will form in 2033." 2033! That's ten years after the 2nd squadron.
The carrier capability of the Royal Navy is an illusory fake, it is an intangible nothing with no numbers to make it worthwhile or effective. It is a great shame and could have been oh so different if we had VSO's with an ounce of a spine. And don't pass off the blame to the politicians. We still have one of the largest defence budgets in the world, it is just spent extremely badly.
Have I ever defended the slow build up of the F-35B/Lightning force? No!
Have I ever defended the decision taken a very long time ago to only upgrade thirty out of forty odd Merlin HM1s to HM2 standard? No! I am pretty certain that I expressed a view about it on some PPRuNe thread, but I suppose we were lucky that those who argued to get rid of all ASW capabilities (a thing of the past they said) were not listened to. I seem to remember wondering out loud why all the Type 23s were not refitted with sonar 2087 and Merlin.
820NAS took seven Merlin HM2s aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth for CSG21. Three of these had the Crowsnest fit, but supposedly could be changed back to ASW if needed - 'role fit' and all that jazz.
The squadron has seven helicopters on HMS Queen Elizabeth including four fitted for anti-submarine warfare and three Merlin Mk2s converted through the Crowsnest programme for use in airborne surveillance and control.Commander Varley, who is a qualified helicopter pilot and instructor, added: “The carrier deployment this year is the greatest achievement that 820 squadron has had on its books for the past 10 years. This is the coming together of years of planning and hard work.
"We have the reintroduction of capabilities and new technology in our airframes, in order that we can embark as a complete squadron to support our ships, as the UK reaffirms itself as a global power.
“In terms of the number of people we need to operate those aircraft, we will have approximately 60 aircrew and about 130 engineers and other support staff. That will give us the ability to fly aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines, constantly supporting and protecting the carrier and the strike group.”
As you say, in addition to CSG21, the Merlin force also had to provide frigate flights, cover the SSBNs as they put to sea, put cabs aboard HMS Prince of Wales for working up, and support training and trials. Assuming we had three aboard Prince of Wales, then we could assume that ten could be put aboard one carrier.
UK’s newest aircraft carrier prepares for front-line operations- 06 September 21
HMS Prince of Wales sailed on Sunday from Portsmouth for a more concerted spell at sea, during which she will embark four F-35Bs plus Merlin helicopters – the first time a fast-jet and helicopter air group has operated side-by-side from her deck and a “step change in complexity” for training the handlers who marshal the aircraft on the deck and to and from the hangar, the aviation team in Flying Control who direct all flying operations, and the engineering team which maintains the state-of-the-art aircraft.
Elsewhere it was commented that a greater number could have been deployed for a shorter deployment or closer to home. When the Merlin did ASW from the CVS the standard squadron size was six aircraft. I suspect that they could achieve that and three Crowsnest cabs in the NATO theatre.
In the old days, the Invincible class carried nine ASW Sea Kings to provide 'Ripple 3' coverage - two aircraft on station and on in transit to/from the carrier. The nine aircraft also kept one on stand by for SAR, and were tasked with VERTREP, HDS, etc. The Merlin has something like 20% greater endurance than the Sea King, and often SAR/VERTREP sorties will frequently be picked up by Jungly Merlin HC4s, so arguably less are needed.
Other points:
1. The Crowsnest role is meant to be moving to some sort of UAS system by the end of the decade, allowing the Merlins to concentrate on ASW etc. I have doubts about the feasibility due to the amount of raw data that would need to be processed without people and/or sent back to the ship in a congested and contested electromagnetic spectrum.
2. One of the reasons for posting that Thales video was to show that we use ASW helicopters differently than in the past, low frequency sonars allow long range detection beyond what older sonars could achieve, and allow for a more effective employment of helicopters. In the old days the ASW cabs spent a lot of time dipping at random - nowadays they would be cued.
3. In a task group (including CSG21) it makes sense to collocate the ASW Merlins on the carrier for reasons of swapping crews, better support and maintenance facilities, better communications and coordination, and a larger more stable deck. Obviously when operating without a carrier, such as the Towed Array Patrol Ship, then Merlin is embarked for ASW.
4. There is a plan to augment the crewed aircraft with uncrewed ones to do things like drop sonobuoys - see here.
Trials will test the capability of the aircraft to drop “sonobuoys”; small tube-shaped buoys that track and communicate submarine activity enabling the aircraft to alert a crewed helicopter and call for support if a submarine is located. Designed to operate at lower cost than crewed aircraft, capabilities derived from the demonstrator could also reduce the exposure of Royal Navy personnel to hostile threats.
You may remember the era when people thought that state versus state competition and conflict was a thing of the past, things like ASW, air defence, heavy armour, and others were no longer needed...
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 18th Mar 2023 at 01:03.