Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Thread Starter
These articles might interest some:
Why aircraft carriers are no longer a constant in the Middle East - Navy Times
As an officer deployed aboard the battleship Wisconsin during Operation Desert Shield in 1990, James Holmes recalls how no one back then thought the U.S. military would ever need an aircraft carrier in the Middle East.
At the time, the Navy’s presence in the region was mostly limited to small surface combatants, and an enclosed body of water like the Persian Gulf was considered a potential graveyard for a carrier, according to Holmes, now retired and the chairman of maritime strategy at the U.S. Naval War College.
The situation changed drastically in the ensuing decades. As the Iraq and Afghanistan wars raged after 9/11, the military had at least one carrier strike group steaming in U.S. Central Command--or CENTCOM--waters at any given time, a demand that eventually helped degrade the readiness of the carrier fleet.
But these days, hundreds of thousands of U.S. boots who might need air support are no longer on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And as a result, roughly 30 years since Holmes encountered a carrier-less Middle East, what’s old has become new again.
----
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February certainly helped nudge this change along. Before that war and the resulting need for U.S. and NATO presence, the Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group might have spent only a short time in the waters of U.S. European Command before heading down to CENTCOM, a common route for deployed East Coast carriers.
Instead, Truman and its ships spent an extended deployment in the European theater, primarily in the Mediterranean, and were relieved by the George H.W. Bush carrier strike group in September.
UK Navy should ‘export’ A2/AD ‘bubbles’ to Indo-Pacific partners to fend off China: Report - Breaking Defense
DUBLIN — The United Kingdom’s Royal Navy should “export” anti-access/anti-denial (A2/AD) “bubbles” to regional partners in the Indo-Pacific so it can operate effectively there, while maintaining commitments in Europe, a new report urges.
The recommendation, outlined in a report published by the UK-based think tank Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), was delivered to Adm. Ben Key, First Sea Lord of the Royal Navy, and comes ahead of a national defense review “refresh” set for publication by the end of the year.
At issue for London in turning attention to the Indo-Pacific is that it has said the Royal Navy will support the Europe-based NATO Readiness Initiative by committing Carrier Strike Group assets to the project leaving very limited scope or resources for new operations — especially those that involve fleet sustainment at range.
In order to resolve such tension, the RUSI authors recommend a so-called “assured sovereignty” approach be taken in which the Royal Navy lends support to “regional partners” so they could develop anti-A2/AD “bubbles” of their own and in so doing deter Chinese threats.
“If this approach were adopted, it could act as a capstone concept not only for the Indo-Pacific tilt but also for the future evolution of frameworks such as the AUKUS (Australia–UK–US) security partnership,” note the authors, who declined to describe any specific systems the UK might consider transferring..
They suggest that AUKUS should also be matured to include “two additional functions” beyond the multinational partnership’s main focus of delivering nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN) to Australia — namely “reinforcing” Canberra’s ability to restrict freedom of action and building AUKUS “exportable capabilities” so smaller nations can increase deterrence.
“In effect, then, the aim of exporting anti-access bubbles might become the capstone aim around which the partnership evolves,” the report adds. “This is not necessarily the only means by which the UK can contribute to regional balancing dynamics, but it is potentially an approach through which the Royal Navy can deliver the most significant strategic effects.”
There are a series of issues that, when looked at together, combine to make the implementation of newly formed A2/AD bubbles particularly relevant, according to the report. Those include lethal autonomy, scalable manufacturing and “smaller devices” potentially being able to increase lethality — suggesting smaller partner nations in the region, well-guided, could become a greater deterrence to large rivals like China...
HMS Queen Elizabeth heads on F-35 jet exercises in northern European waters - Royal Navy
The Carrier Strike Group will work closely with NATO and Joint Expeditionary Force allies as the UK underscores its commitment to safeguarding European security.
The Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) is a coalition of ten like-minded nations, which are dedicated to maintaining the security of northern Europe.
This latest deployment builds on a range of operations and exercises with JEF allies this year for the Royal Navy, including maritime patrols in the Baltic Sea.
HMS Queen Elizabeth will be at the centre of the Carrier Strike Group, with the Commander UK Carrier Strike Group, Commodore Angus Essenhigh, and his staff commanding from the aircraft carrier.
F-35B Lightning jets from 617 Squadron will carry out flying operations, while helicopters from 820, 845, 815 and 825 Naval Air Squadrons will be undertaking sorties from a bustling flight deck...
Someone said something about having a carrier meaning that we can only be effective in one place:
The deployment is part of the UK’s Operation Achillean, which also includes a task force led by HMS Albion in the Mediterranean.
More than a thousand sailors and Royal Marines have been operating with NATO allies and partners across the Med as part of the Littoral Response Group (North) this autumn.
The task force – which also includes RFA Argus, RFA Mounts Bay and HMS Defender – have most recently worked in Montenegro, forging closer bonds as the Balkan nation celebrates five years of NATO membership.
That sounds like being effective in two places - as well as other contributions to NATO, commitments in the Middle East, and forward presence in the South Atlantic, Caribbean, Mediterranean, and Far East - and of course CASD.
Often the carrier would be acting to protect the LRG.
Why aircraft carriers are no longer a constant in the Middle East - Navy Times
As an officer deployed aboard the battleship Wisconsin during Operation Desert Shield in 1990, James Holmes recalls how no one back then thought the U.S. military would ever need an aircraft carrier in the Middle East.
At the time, the Navy’s presence in the region was mostly limited to small surface combatants, and an enclosed body of water like the Persian Gulf was considered a potential graveyard for a carrier, according to Holmes, now retired and the chairman of maritime strategy at the U.S. Naval War College.
The situation changed drastically in the ensuing decades. As the Iraq and Afghanistan wars raged after 9/11, the military had at least one carrier strike group steaming in U.S. Central Command--or CENTCOM--waters at any given time, a demand that eventually helped degrade the readiness of the carrier fleet.
But these days, hundreds of thousands of U.S. boots who might need air support are no longer on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And as a result, roughly 30 years since Holmes encountered a carrier-less Middle East, what’s old has become new again.
----
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February certainly helped nudge this change along. Before that war and the resulting need for U.S. and NATO presence, the Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group might have spent only a short time in the waters of U.S. European Command before heading down to CENTCOM, a common route for deployed East Coast carriers.
Instead, Truman and its ships spent an extended deployment in the European theater, primarily in the Mediterranean, and were relieved by the George H.W. Bush carrier strike group in September.
UK Navy should ‘export’ A2/AD ‘bubbles’ to Indo-Pacific partners to fend off China: Report - Breaking Defense
DUBLIN — The United Kingdom’s Royal Navy should “export” anti-access/anti-denial (A2/AD) “bubbles” to regional partners in the Indo-Pacific so it can operate effectively there, while maintaining commitments in Europe, a new report urges.
The recommendation, outlined in a report published by the UK-based think tank Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), was delivered to Adm. Ben Key, First Sea Lord of the Royal Navy, and comes ahead of a national defense review “refresh” set for publication by the end of the year.
At issue for London in turning attention to the Indo-Pacific is that it has said the Royal Navy will support the Europe-based NATO Readiness Initiative by committing Carrier Strike Group assets to the project leaving very limited scope or resources for new operations — especially those that involve fleet sustainment at range.
In order to resolve such tension, the RUSI authors recommend a so-called “assured sovereignty” approach be taken in which the Royal Navy lends support to “regional partners” so they could develop anti-A2/AD “bubbles” of their own and in so doing deter Chinese threats.
“If this approach were adopted, it could act as a capstone concept not only for the Indo-Pacific tilt but also for the future evolution of frameworks such as the AUKUS (Australia–UK–US) security partnership,” note the authors, who declined to describe any specific systems the UK might consider transferring..
They suggest that AUKUS should also be matured to include “two additional functions” beyond the multinational partnership’s main focus of delivering nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN) to Australia — namely “reinforcing” Canberra’s ability to restrict freedom of action and building AUKUS “exportable capabilities” so smaller nations can increase deterrence.
“In effect, then, the aim of exporting anti-access bubbles might become the capstone aim around which the partnership evolves,” the report adds. “This is not necessarily the only means by which the UK can contribute to regional balancing dynamics, but it is potentially an approach through which the Royal Navy can deliver the most significant strategic effects.”
There are a series of issues that, when looked at together, combine to make the implementation of newly formed A2/AD bubbles particularly relevant, according to the report. Those include lethal autonomy, scalable manufacturing and “smaller devices” potentially being able to increase lethality — suggesting smaller partner nations in the region, well-guided, could become a greater deterrence to large rivals like China...
HMS Queen Elizabeth heads on F-35 jet exercises in northern European waters - Royal Navy
The Carrier Strike Group will work closely with NATO and Joint Expeditionary Force allies as the UK underscores its commitment to safeguarding European security.
The Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) is a coalition of ten like-minded nations, which are dedicated to maintaining the security of northern Europe.
This latest deployment builds on a range of operations and exercises with JEF allies this year for the Royal Navy, including maritime patrols in the Baltic Sea.
HMS Queen Elizabeth will be at the centre of the Carrier Strike Group, with the Commander UK Carrier Strike Group, Commodore Angus Essenhigh, and his staff commanding from the aircraft carrier.
F-35B Lightning jets from 617 Squadron will carry out flying operations, while helicopters from 820, 845, 815 and 825 Naval Air Squadrons will be undertaking sorties from a bustling flight deck...
Someone said something about having a carrier meaning that we can only be effective in one place:
The deployment is part of the UK’s Operation Achillean, which also includes a task force led by HMS Albion in the Mediterranean.
More than a thousand sailors and Royal Marines have been operating with NATO allies and partners across the Med as part of the Littoral Response Group (North) this autumn.
The task force – which also includes RFA Argus, RFA Mounts Bay and HMS Defender – have most recently worked in Montenegro, forging closer bonds as the Balkan nation celebrates five years of NATO membership.
That sounds like being effective in two places - as well as other contributions to NATO, commitments in the Middle East, and forward presence in the South Atlantic, Caribbean, Mediterranean, and Far East - and of course CASD.
Often the carrier would be acting to protect the LRG.
"In order to resolve such tension, the RUSI authors recommend a so-called “assured sovereignty” approach be taken in which the Royal Navy lends support to “regional partners”"
So they're suggesting the UK guarantee military support to people a very long way from Europe? That didn't work out very well in the past. And with only two carriers on a good day - that's quite an ask
So they're suggesting the UK guarantee military support to people a very long way from Europe? That didn't work out very well in the past. And with only two carriers on a good day - that's quite an ask
"In order to resolve such tension, the RUSI authors recommend a so-called “assured sovereignty” approach be taken in which the Royal Navy lends support to “regional partners”"
So they're suggesting the UK guarantee military support to people a very long way from Europe? That didn't work out very well in the past. And with only two carriers on a good day - that's quite an ask
So they're suggesting the UK guarantee military support to people a very long way from Europe? That didn't work out very well in the past. And with only two carriers on a good day - that's quite an ask
thanks NAB - the language in the RUSI paper is a bit academic - I think WEBF also thought the creation of "bubbles" involved the actual use of UK marine assets.
Advice is certainly a god idea - sending ships - maybe not
Advice is certainly a god idea - sending ships - maybe not
Thread Starter
Thanks for telling me what I thought instead of letting me think what I thought... You may have noticed I put some of the quote in bold - that, along the article about US carriers not long being present in the Arabian Gulf all the time as the NATO theatre is a priority again, and the article about HMS Queen Elizabeth undertaking NATO activities, might indicate that I am not one of those fools who think that we must send everything to the South China Sea.
On that note:
Five carriers deployed around Europe – including HMS Queen Elizabeth – demonstrates NATO unity and resolve - Royal Navy
From the cold grey expanses of the North Atlantic and northern waters to the warmer confines of the Adriatic and azure Mediterranean, five of the most powerful warships in the alliance – plus their supporting carrier strike groups – are deployed, training or exercising as part of their regularly scheduled activities.
Although each nation’s forces are operating in support of their own mission objectives, the advanced cooperation is part of a demonstration of NATO unity and the collective defence of the Alliance.
The five carriers are:
• HMS Queen Elizabeth – currently in the North Sea ahead of NATO/Joint Expeditionary Force exercises/training in northern European waters
• USS George H W Bush – on operations in the Adriatic
• USS Gerald R Ford – at anchor in Stokes Bay, Gosport, on a short visit to Portsmouth
• France’s FS Charles de Gaulle and Italy’s ITS Cavour – both in the Mediterranean
In addition, it’s continuing to operate its four core task groups – Standing Mine Countermeasures Groups 1 and 2, Standing Maritime Groups 1 and 2 – with the latter recently working with HMS Albion’s Littoral Response Group (North) in the Adriatic.
Deterrence is a constant endeavour.
On that note:
Five carriers deployed around Europe – including HMS Queen Elizabeth – demonstrates NATO unity and resolve - Royal Navy
From the cold grey expanses of the North Atlantic and northern waters to the warmer confines of the Adriatic and azure Mediterranean, five of the most powerful warships in the alliance – plus their supporting carrier strike groups – are deployed, training or exercising as part of their regularly scheduled activities.
Although each nation’s forces are operating in support of their own mission objectives, the advanced cooperation is part of a demonstration of NATO unity and the collective defence of the Alliance.
The five carriers are:
• HMS Queen Elizabeth – currently in the North Sea ahead of NATO/Joint Expeditionary Force exercises/training in northern European waters
• USS George H W Bush – on operations in the Adriatic
• USS Gerald R Ford – at anchor in Stokes Bay, Gosport, on a short visit to Portsmouth
• France’s FS Charles de Gaulle and Italy’s ITS Cavour – both in the Mediterranean
In addition, it’s continuing to operate its four core task groups – Standing Mine Countermeasures Groups 1 and 2, Standing Maritime Groups 1 and 2 – with the latter recently working with HMS Albion’s Littoral Response Group (North) in the Adriatic.
Deterrence is a constant endeavour.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 20th Nov 2022 at 07:01.
you missed out the one defending the Firth of Forth WEBF
Originally Posted by UKDJ 21 Nov 2022
The arrival of three F-35B jets means the UK has now taken delivery of 30 jets. With one aircraft lost in an accident and three test jets in the US, there are now 26 of the type in operational service in the UK.
Seven more will arrive in 2023 with an expectation that all of the 47 in the first batch will be delivered by the end of 2025. Note that it would have been 48 if one didn’t crash...
"Seven more will arrive in 2023 with an expectation that all of the 47 in the first batch will be delivered by the end of 2025"
I honestly find that incredible - and truly awful......................
I honestly find that incredible - and truly awful......................
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Royal Navy to buy the Norwegian Naval Strike Missile - first 3 ships to be operational within 12 months.
https://www.navylookout.com/royal-na...trike-missile/
https://www.navylookout.com/royal-na...trike-missile/
Suspicion breeds confidence
Royal Navy to buy the Norwegian Naval Strike Missile - first 3 ships to be operational within 12 months.
https://www.navylookout.com/royal-na...trike-missile/
https://www.navylookout.com/royal-na...trike-missile/
certainly big enough against most of the opposition they're likely to ever meet
Thread Starter
Perhaps the most significant thing is that politicians realise that an anti ship capability is needed. On that note, I understand that there is an air launched version called the Joint Strike Missile in the pipeline, and it should be compatible with all variants of the F-35 Lightning.
NATO needs shipborne aviation:
Sea control seems to be back on the agenda too! This is course has always been a major carrier role, and was during the Cold War, and the Second War before that, and in the Falklands - any time when dealing with an enemy with air or naval capabilities - as discussed over here on a dedicated thread about carriers and sea control.
VIDEO: USS Gerald R. Ford Back in Norfolk After Two Months in the Atlantic - USNI News
“Through integrated and combined operations such as live and inert ordnance expenditure by Carrier Air Wing 8, anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, and air defense, we set the stage for operating with Ford-class technologies in a deployed environment,” said Ford commander Capt. Paul Lanzilotta in the Saturday release.
NATO needs shipborne aviation:
Sea control seems to be back on the agenda too! This is course has always been a major carrier role, and was during the Cold War, and the Second War before that, and in the Falklands - any time when dealing with an enemy with air or naval capabilities - as discussed over here on a dedicated thread about carriers and sea control.
VIDEO: USS Gerald R. Ford Back in Norfolk After Two Months in the Atlantic - USNI News
“Through integrated and combined operations such as live and inert ordnance expenditure by Carrier Air Wing 8, anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, and air defense, we set the stage for operating with Ford-class technologies in a deployed environment,” said Ford commander Capt. Paul Lanzilotta in the Saturday release.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 29th Nov 2022 at 17:18. Reason: To be 'inclusive' - thinking of the RAF in the RN/RAF Lightning Force, and the USMC flying from amphibs.
WEBF - adding capability is one thing but until we get more F-35's its not going to make any real difference
The Times todayHMS Prince of Wales, one of the UK’s two aircraft carriers, has now spent more time being repaired in docks than it has at sea.
The £3.2 billion carrier, the largest ship in the British fleet, has been languishing in a Scottish dockyard after it broke down off the Isle of Wight in August. A problem with the propeller shaft is merely the latest in a string of technical issues that have afflicted the 284m-long vessel since it was commissioned into the Navy three years ago. Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, chief of the defence staff, admitted the problems were “deeply frustrating” this month as he said the ship was “not as well as I would like it to be”. He said at the annual Rusi lecture: “These are massive capital projects where sometimes things will go wrong.”
The problems began in 2020. A leak in the ship’s engine room resulted in nearly a metre of water submerging electrical cabinets and pipes, just a few months after the roof of an accommodation block collapsed, sending water cascading onto sailors. That same year, more than 100 crew had to spend the night on their sister ship, HMS Queen Elizabeth, after the Prince of Wales temporarily lost power. Between October 2020 and April 2021, the ship spent 193 days having the floodwater damage repaired, at an estimated cost of £3.3 million. The carrier was then able to sail to Gibraltar in 2021. However, a year later, the 65,000-tonne ship broke down again. In August the Prince of Wales was leaving Portsmouth for the US to take part in joint exercises when it ran into further difficulties. The carrier, which is supposed to be the Nato flagship, suffered a serious problem with its propeller shaft and has now returned to Rosyth for more repairs. It is not due to leave the dockyard until March.
Analysis of Ministry of Defence figures reveals that the carrier has now spent 267 days at sea since it was commissioned into the Navy in December 2019. Christmas Eve was the 268th day it has undergone repairs. HMS Queen Elizabeth has replaced HMS Prince of Wales on overseas deployments despite the carriers being supposed to alternate on eight-month tours. Francis Tusa, a defence analyst, said: “A problem with the propeller shaft is not trivial. If there is no spare, it will take at least six months to make.” He added that the Queen Elizabeth would also wear out faster if the Royal Navy decided to use it continuously while its sister ship was being repaired.
A spokesman for Babcock, the company responsible for building the propeller shaft, said: “Work is ongoing to understand the cause of the issue and Babcock remains focused on completing the repair.”Labour called on the government to be honest about when HMS Prince of Wales will return to the water. John Healey, the shadow defence secretary, said: “When threats are rising and the number of Navy ships are set to fall, we need our fleet at sea, not stuck in dock. HMS Prince of Wales is a Nato flagship and ministers cannot allow problems to undermine the ability of our armed forces to lead joint exercises.” A Royal Navy spokesman said: “Repairs to HMS Prince of Wales’s starboard shaft are expected to be completed by spring. The ship will then return to Portsmouth for a pre-planned maintenance period.”
The £3.2 billion carrier, the largest ship in the British fleet, has been languishing in a Scottish dockyard after it broke down off the Isle of Wight in August. A problem with the propeller shaft is merely the latest in a string of technical issues that have afflicted the 284m-long vessel since it was commissioned into the Navy three years ago. Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, chief of the defence staff, admitted the problems were “deeply frustrating” this month as he said the ship was “not as well as I would like it to be”. He said at the annual Rusi lecture: “These are massive capital projects where sometimes things will go wrong.”
The problems began in 2020. A leak in the ship’s engine room resulted in nearly a metre of water submerging electrical cabinets and pipes, just a few months after the roof of an accommodation block collapsed, sending water cascading onto sailors. That same year, more than 100 crew had to spend the night on their sister ship, HMS Queen Elizabeth, after the Prince of Wales temporarily lost power. Between October 2020 and April 2021, the ship spent 193 days having the floodwater damage repaired, at an estimated cost of £3.3 million. The carrier was then able to sail to Gibraltar in 2021. However, a year later, the 65,000-tonne ship broke down again. In August the Prince of Wales was leaving Portsmouth for the US to take part in joint exercises when it ran into further difficulties. The carrier, which is supposed to be the Nato flagship, suffered a serious problem with its propeller shaft and has now returned to Rosyth for more repairs. It is not due to leave the dockyard until March.
Analysis of Ministry of Defence figures reveals that the carrier has now spent 267 days at sea since it was commissioned into the Navy in December 2019. Christmas Eve was the 268th day it has undergone repairs. HMS Queen Elizabeth has replaced HMS Prince of Wales on overseas deployments despite the carriers being supposed to alternate on eight-month tours. Francis Tusa, a defence analyst, said: “A problem with the propeller shaft is not trivial. If there is no spare, it will take at least six months to make.” He added that the Queen Elizabeth would also wear out faster if the Royal Navy decided to use it continuously while its sister ship was being repaired.
A spokesman for Babcock, the company responsible for building the propeller shaft, said: “Work is ongoing to understand the cause of the issue and Babcock remains focused on completing the repair.”Labour called on the government to be honest about when HMS Prince of Wales will return to the water. John Healey, the shadow defence secretary, said: “When threats are rising and the number of Navy ships are set to fall, we need our fleet at sea, not stuck in dock. HMS Prince of Wales is a Nato flagship and ministers cannot allow problems to undermine the ability of our armed forces to lead joint exercises.” A Royal Navy spokesman said: “Repairs to HMS Prince of Wales’s starboard shaft are expected to be completed by spring. The ship will then return to Portsmouth for a pre-planned maintenance period.”
I read that Times article at breakfast time and almost spluttered cereal over my iPad when I came to the last sentence "The ship will then return to Portsmouth for a pre-planned maintenance period."
Got to keep those contractors paid on schedule!!
Perhaps the US Navy could be convinced to offer a Wasp Class Amphib to the Royal Navy on a Lend Lease arrangement.
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