Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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VIDEO: With CVFs Sir FALLon wants to strike terrorists where ever they IS:
Video: Michael Fallon - HMS Queen Elizabeth will combat terrorist threats - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
Video: Michael Fallon - HMS Queen Elizabeth will combat terrorist threats - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
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Sir Fallon has, I am reliably informed, very little "cred" left at the coal face.
On BBC news this morning "Government to Ban petrol and diesel cars"
It's all a matter of WHEN.
On BBC news this morning "Government to Ban petrol and diesel cars"
It's all a matter of WHEN.
Try a search of the Royal Aircraft Establishment reports: Naval Air dept, BLEU, Airfield Lighting and Visual Aids dept, RAE Bedford. All were involved in post 1960s developments, particularly carrier applications and those applicable to helicopter ops on smaller ships.
As an aside look for wide ranging PAPI applications; clandestine air ops, harbour docking guidance.
As an aside look for wide ranging PAPI applications; clandestine air ops, harbour docking guidance.
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Is WEBF interested in ONLY the RN or in NavAv overall? Is the interest in STOVL OPs only or in general fixed wing carrier landings for the last century? Does WEBF include LSOs in this history of 'landing aids'?
The recent 4.4Gb PDF has the most up to date info on 'landing aids' at that time, including the 'MAGII soup spilled on the CARPET' for the Shornets and the DFP Delta Flight Path for the F-35C. This up to date stuff would not be in older 'how to deck land' PDFs for example but still and all an huge bunch of info nevertheless. I'm downloading an 18 month old 'how DL' pdf now from OneDrive but one must follow directions at the first URL if one is not registered at Microsoft OneDrive beforehand:
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63...CD63D6340707E6 (folder for PDF)
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 4th Aug 2017 at 09:30. Reason: text/URL
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I am interested in visual and other means used to help recover aircraft aboard ship, from the World War Two Batsman to more modern methods. I am interested in the original experiment by Captain (later Rear Admiral Nick Goodhart) (nice video here) and things that evolved from it, both fixed wing and rotary wing.
Yes I think STOVL is a special case, particularly as we look towards F-35B with two landing modes. I just find the whole subject fascinating. When I was at school I remember reading in the local paper than a local company had an £x million contract to supply shipboard lighting to the US Marine Corps. I now know this company did work on landing aids (things like CLUBS) and I wonder what fun things they were exporting...
I am also interested in the role that the ship's communicators play in keeping aircraft safe and effective.
Yes I think STOVL is a special case, particularly as we look towards F-35B with two landing modes. I just find the whole subject fascinating. When I was at school I remember reading in the local paper than a local company had an £x million contract to supply shipboard lighting to the US Marine Corps. I now know this company did work on landing aids (things like CLUBS) and I wonder what fun things they were exporting...
I am also interested in the role that the ship's communicators play in keeping aircraft safe and effective.
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The 2Gb PDF will be useful to WEBF however it probably has info about less interesting facets perhaps also. As you probably gather by now I'm an old A4G Skyhawk deck lander with my last DL some 45 years ago. All the new deck landing stuff is fascinating to me also but I've no experience with it. Would have been nice to have an internet all those years ago for me to get my head around all the details I know today - my briefings were perfunctory to say the least, with the expectation that 'doing' would see me OK. Not complaining just sayin' how little written or other (verbal) info was available to me at that time.
I have no helo experience nor STOVL however there is info about same in the PDF with the F-35B & C taking a lot of space because: what they have and how they do it is so 'extra ordinary' (to me anyway). 'CLUBS' I do not recognize (prolly something to chase up). 'Ship Communicators' I would take to mean the CCAs Carrier Controlled Approaches? The only way an A4G could get aboard at night was to carry out a CCA to one mile with the talkdown continuing (depending on controller & conditions) with the A4G pilot calling the ball when he could etc... MELBOURNE had one of the first CCA radars - a Sea Venom radar in the dome atop aft on the island. Brits dun good again.
I have no helo experience nor STOVL however there is info about same in the PDF with the F-35B & C taking a lot of space because: what they have and how they do it is so 'extra ordinary' (to me anyway). 'CLUBS' I do not recognize (prolly something to chase up). 'Ship Communicators' I would take to mean the CCAs Carrier Controlled Approaches? The only way an A4G could get aboard at night was to carry out a CCA to one mile with the talkdown continuing (depending on controller & conditions) with the A4G pilot calling the ball when he could etc... MELBOURNE had one of the first CCA radars - a Sea Venom radar in the dome atop aft on the island. Brits dun good again.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 4th Aug 2017 at 19:07. Reason: off to on
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More FOO than a MAN can CHEW in this 2Gb 'how to deck land' PDF as seen in the JPG attached. The 'bookmark' pane is a great way to access the contents with SEARCH another good one for special words. Anyway it is 18 months old - more good stuff as indicated elsewhere.
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63...CD63D6340707E6 (folder for PDF) [Remember potential downloaders must register with Microsoft OneDrive FIRST.]
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63...CD63D6340707E6 (folder for PDF) [Remember potential downloaders must register with Microsoft OneDrive FIRST.]
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I have no helo experience nor STOVL however there is info about same in the PDF with the F-35B & C taking a lot of space because: what they have and how they do it is so 'extra ordinary' (to me anyway). 'CLUBS' I do not recognize (prolly something to chase up). 'Ship Communicators' I would take to mean the CCAs Carrier Controlled Approaches? The only way an A4G could get aboard at night was to carry out a CCA to one mile with the talkdown continuing (depending on controller & conditions) with the A4G pilot calling the ball when he could etc... MELBOURNE had one of the first CCA radars - a Sea Venom radar in the dome atop aft on the island. Brits dun good again.
CLUBS stood for Carrier Line Up Beacon - something to do with CVS/Sea Harrier/Harrier I think - not much information about it out there.
Your comment about Melbourne and her CCA radar is very interesting. I was astounded when you said the radar from the Sea Venom was used, but it does make sense. The incoming aircraft would be seen by other radars until being at CCA range. Then (the Sea Venom had an air intercept radar - yes?) since you knew which direction the aircraft is coming from, the limited arc is not an issue, and offset by the greater resolution. As such the pilot could be directed to the meatball.
In the Sea Harrier days, the CVS was fitted with something called MADGE (Microwave Airborne Digital Guidance Equipment), as was the Sea Harrier itself. When the Sea Harrier left service, the two remaining members of the class were fitted with a precision approach landing (Harrier GR7/9 had no MADGE) - I assume this performed a CCA role. The jet then used optical systems like CLUBS to line up on the carrier, and then DAPS helped to get them into the hover at the right place, and then onto the deck.
From your own post here. I also found this from the On The Roger board: No more carrier meatballs
All these optical systems come from Captain (later Rear Admiral) Nick Goodhart's experiment. Now we have things like this:
Carrier Specific - AGI Ltd
The Glide Slope and Long Range Line-Up Indicator System (GLIS), incorporating two ASGSIs, has been developed by AGI to satisfy a requirement for an NVG compliant system that replaces Deck Approach Projector Sight (DAPS). This system may be used by pilots flying with NVDs, who are making their final approach to an aircraft carrier or similar sized naval vessel. The two ASGSI projectors, situated one fore and one aft on the port side of the flight deck, provide a long range line-up indication. Intensity calculations indicate that the viewing distance would be a minimum of 2NM depending upon prevailing meteorological visibility conditions. Operational experience has shown that the viewing distance is often considerably greater, with reports of 5NM not being uncommon. The beam projected by the two ASGSI's is vertically colour-coded, as well as incorporating different occulting rates in the upper and lower sectors. On the correct glide slope, both ASGSI's shall indicate a steady green signal to the pilot. Deviation from the correct glide path, results in one or other projectors being seen as a flashing colour, the flashing rate of which is dependent upon whether the deviation is high or low. The system may be used with equal effectiveness either with or without Night Vision Devices (NVD) and has been described as an intuitive replacement for DAPS.
The HIHAT system is a lighting solution developed for installation on aircraft carriers or other similar sized vessels, that will provide a clear, intuitive and NVD friendly indication of hover height and relative ship movement to the pilot in the side hover position. The viewing angle of the system is significantly wider than other similar traditional systems currently in service. For optimum performance, it should be mounted on the side of the ship's island, overlooking the flight deck, in a location that will allow visibility to a minimum number of three deck landing positions.
Then there is the Bedford Array for Rolling Vertical Landing..... I think you may have a nice PDF file about it somewhere!
As for ship's communicators - I was referring to the people who work in the Main Communications Office (might be called other things by other navies) setting up and running communications circuits, they are one of the many parts of ship that make it happen.
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'WEBF' thanks for the info about CLUB - I'll look for more details soon. And thanks for the AGI link - there is old info about similar in the PDFs. I'm 'lucifer' (old callsign) on the ROGER board but I do not go there now - too busy. There is a TUN of info about the BEDFORD ARRAY in both PDFs mentioned. Which one(s) have you downloaded? If you give the full PDF name I can give you page references or SEARCH the PDF using the term BEDFORD ARRAY - that is probably simplest method.
Yes the Venom CCA was for the final glideslope with the main ship radar used for intro into CCA. I do not know anything about ship comms. I have been busy futilely attempting to cut down the latest PDF into a 'how to deck land' that is up to date. However a problem with a page or pages defeats me (Acrobat stops working). It seems I can UPdate the 18 month old 'how to deck land' with new info so I'll do that over the next few centuries (I jest). Anyway the 4.4Gb PDF available now is probably the last for sure. 'How Deck Land' is more relevant for updating whereas the A4G info is more or less what it is by now.
Generally the secret for finding info in these large PDFs is to SEARCH on a specific term such as MADGE. The Bookmark Pane can point you in a general direction whilst the Pages Pane can be a quick way to scroll through the PDFs.
Yes the Venom CCA was for the final glideslope with the main ship radar used for intro into CCA. I do not know anything about ship comms. I have been busy futilely attempting to cut down the latest PDF into a 'how to deck land' that is up to date. However a problem with a page or pages defeats me (Acrobat stops working). It seems I can UPdate the 18 month old 'how to deck land' with new info so I'll do that over the next few centuries (I jest). Anyway the 4.4Gb PDF available now is probably the last for sure. 'How Deck Land' is more relevant for updating whereas the A4G info is more or less what it is by now.
Generally the secret for finding info in these large PDFs is to SEARCH on a specific term such as MADGE. The Bookmark Pane can point you in a general direction whilst the Pages Pane can be a quick way to scroll through the PDFs.
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ByGeez ByGolly aren't those yanks good to youse brits:
HMS Queen Elizabeth meets up with US carrier group off Scottish coast 08 Aug 2017
HMS Queen Elizabeth meets up with US carrier group off Scottish coast 08 Aug 2017
"...Captain Ken Houlberg, Chief of Staff to the Commander of the UK Carrier Strike Group, said: "The US Navy, out of huge generosity, has given us the whole of their carrier strike group so that we can practise the command and control of a carrier doing these operations in British waters so that when HMS Queen Elizabeth comes into service later this year we will be well on the way to forming our own carrier strike capability."
The exercise, which has been at play for nearly a week, has seen UK staff work with their American counterparts to fight off a series of simulated threats from enemy forces, using all the air, surface and sub-surface assets of the entire task group.
There are 15 ships from across NATO taking part in the exercise, called Exercise Saxon Warrior, with more than 100 aircraft and nearly 10,000 people.
Lieutenant Commander James Capps, a Royal Navy fixed wing pilot who is the Fixed Wing Operations Officer on the exercise, said: "We are extremely fortunate. Being here on the George HW Bush has given us the opportunity to see where we are and what we need to achieve for our own UK carrier strike capability and to be here to see how the US does it has been fantastic preparation. They have been so welcoming and we are extremely grateful for the experience." HMS Queen Elizabeth meets up with US carrier group off Scottish coast | Royal Navy
The exercise, which has been at play for nearly a week, has seen UK staff work with their American counterparts to fight off a series of simulated threats from enemy forces, using all the air, surface and sub-surface assets of the entire task group.
There are 15 ships from across NATO taking part in the exercise, called Exercise Saxon Warrior, with more than 100 aircraft and nearly 10,000 people.
Lieutenant Commander James Capps, a Royal Navy fixed wing pilot who is the Fixed Wing Operations Officer on the exercise, said: "We are extremely fortunate. Being here on the George HW Bush has given us the opportunity to see where we are and what we need to achieve for our own UK carrier strike capability and to be here to see how the US does it has been fantastic preparation. They have been so welcoming and we are extremely grateful for the experience." HMS Queen Elizabeth meets up with US carrier group off Scottish coast | Royal Navy
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 9th Aug 2017 at 00:52. Reason: + JPG
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'WEBF' thanks for the info about CLUB - I'll look for more details soon. And thanks for the AGI link - there is old info about similar in the PDFs. I'm 'lucifer' (old callsign) on the ROGER board but I do not go there now - too busy. There is a TUN of info about the BEDFORD ARRAY in both PDFs mentioned. Which one(s) have you downloaded? If you give the full PDF name I can give you page references or SEARCH the PDF using the term BEDFORD ARRAY - that is probably simplest method.
To be honest I never paid any thought to visual landing aids until one day I was working for a local company when I got told to go and run through some tests on a Glide Path Indicator. It was explained as being basically a light projector to get a helicopter onto the deck, or at least near enough so that the FDO's wands and deck markings could be seen.
Until that day my only thoughts of it was a booklet about the Fleet Air Arm the careers people when I was fourteen, which referred to the invention of the mirror deck landing sight, and Maverick's reference to 'the ball' during the film Top Gun. I idly wondered if a similar system was used for fixed wing aircraft, and if similar things were used for oil rigs, emergency helicopter landing sites and the like.
Even when I found myself aboard a CVS (HMS Illustrious) when she had jets embarked I managed to pay no attention to visual aids.
Years later I found out that said company was the design authority for CLUBS. From an official document (as far as I know not in the public domain) the procedure was for the Harrier (this was written after Sea Harrier was retired - but I assume it would have been the same), I understand that the pilot was to use CLUBS to line up on the carrier, and then use DAPS to get down to the right height, before using CLUBS again to gauge separation from the ship, and also keeping an eye on the Chockhead's wands.
The new system used actually sounds very similar to ones used for helicopter recovery. From the PDF above (page 128):
The GLIS system, based on two night-vision goggle-compliant stabilised Glide Path Indicator (GPI) units, is the primary source of information available to the pilot for establishing and maintaining the correct glide slope during the approach. These GPI units are positioned at either end of the ship, in the port catwalk level with the flight deck. High intensity drop-line lights, mounted on the stern of the ship, provide line-up cues.
Each GPI is essentially a high intensity sectored light projector. The glide slope of the aircraft, relative to the GLIS, determines which coloured light sector is visible to the pilot. If the pilot is flying down the optimum glide slope (nominally three degrees) a steady green light is visible. If the approach is too high a flashing green light is visible. Alternatively, if the approach is too low a red light will be visible. A steady red light indicates a slightly low approach and a flashing red light indicates a very low approach.
GLIS to the hover, HIHAT to the deck. I assume reducing pilot workload was part of the design brief.
Radio communications between the pilot and the ship also helps! So whether you are recovering a Wildcat or Merlin to a Type 23 frigate, a F-35B to Queen Elizabeth or Prince of Wales, if in the old days you were recovering a Sea Harrier to a CVS or even a A4G to Melbourne, you need:
Ship on right course/speed
Clear deck
Radar
Radio Communications
Visual aids
Yet, some still seem to think a carrier is just a floating airfield. ugh:
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'WEBF' you have downloaded only a very small part of the material about 'how to deck land' - when that small PDF is more or less about SRVL with some material missing to allow the PDF to be uploaded to F-16.net with an 11Mb file size limit. As you can imagine I can only imagine what it is like to approach a CVS in a Harrier although there are many instances of ex-A4G pilots describing it (along with USMC Harrier pilots for their flat decks). My experience is with the meatball in the mirror - very olde schoole. Anyway the PDF you have downloaded is an example of the quality of the material about 'how to deck land' otherwise available in a much larger PDF.
Right now I'm trialling the latest version of Acrobat DC which is no help in overcoming the issues I have with editing the 4.4Gb PDF. The PDF is OK it just cannot be edited any more. IF you have more interest in 'How to Deck Land' then the 2Gb PDF dated at beginning of 2015 has most of the material I have on offer except the very latest info on 'Magic Carpet' & 'Delta Flight Path' (all in 4.4Gb PDF though).
This is the link to the folder on OneDrive with the 2Gb PDF (again a site restriction on file size):
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63...CD63D6340707E6 (right click on PDF file name to download to your computer before opening it with the latest version of Adobe Reader DC (free program). You must register with Microsoft before being able to see the file at the URL. File name is:
How Deck Land 01 Jan 2015 PDF 2Gb
I see there is also a 'download' button on the ribbon at top of the folder view window but right mouse click will do the job also. IT IS A MISTAKE TO ALLOW ANY PDF VIEWER to download the file by left mouse button clicking on the PDF file. Please follow my advice for a good result. Just today I see I'm NOT signed in but I can download the file (which is news to me but I cannot keep up with how Microsoft change protocols). So try whatever works for download THEN VIEW.
Attached is a one page PDF about the Sea Venom CCA Radar.
Right now I'm trialling the latest version of Acrobat DC which is no help in overcoming the issues I have with editing the 4.4Gb PDF. The PDF is OK it just cannot be edited any more. IF you have more interest in 'How to Deck Land' then the 2Gb PDF dated at beginning of 2015 has most of the material I have on offer except the very latest info on 'Magic Carpet' & 'Delta Flight Path' (all in 4.4Gb PDF though).
This is the link to the folder on OneDrive with the 2Gb PDF (again a site restriction on file size):
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63...CD63D6340707E6 (right click on PDF file name to download to your computer before opening it with the latest version of Adobe Reader DC (free program). You must register with Microsoft before being able to see the file at the URL. File name is:
How Deck Land 01 Jan 2015 PDF 2Gb
I see there is also a 'download' button on the ribbon at top of the folder view window but right mouse click will do the job also. IT IS A MISTAKE TO ALLOW ANY PDF VIEWER to download the file by left mouse button clicking on the PDF file. Please follow my advice for a good result. Just today I see I'm NOT signed in but I can download the file (which is news to me but I cannot keep up with how Microsoft change protocols). So try whatever works for download THEN VIEW.
Attached is a one page PDF about the Sea Venom CCA Radar.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 9th Aug 2017 at 08:39. Reason: attach PDF
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ONLY the non birdie fish head crew here:
Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers (planned complement) Number of Personnel
Warfare Department
Captain 1
Commander 3
Lieutenant Commander 11
Lieutenant 29
Sub Lieutenant 3
Warrant Officer 6
Chief Petty Officer 14
Petty Officer 24
Leading Hand 66
Able Rate 88
Engineering Department
Commander 3
Lieutenant Commander 4
Lieutenant 9
Warrant Officer 8
Chief Petty Officer 14
Petty Officer 54
Leading Hand 70
Able Rate 122
Logistics Department
Commander 1
Lieutenant Commander 1
Lieutenant 4
Warrant Officer 3
Chief Petty Officer 6
Petty Officer 14
Leading Hand 30
Able Rate 71
Medical Department
Commander 1
Lieutenant Commander 2
Lieutenant 1
Chief Petty Officer 1
Petty Officer 1
Leading Hand 2
Able Rate 3
Welfare Department
Warrant Officer 1
Chaplaincy Service
Commander 1
TOTAL 672
Source: http://qna.files.parliament.uk/qna-a...-%20210751.doc (304Kb)
Warfare Department
Captain 1
Commander 3
Lieutenant Commander 11
Lieutenant 29
Sub Lieutenant 3
Warrant Officer 6
Chief Petty Officer 14
Petty Officer 24
Leading Hand 66
Able Rate 88
Engineering Department
Commander 3
Lieutenant Commander 4
Lieutenant 9
Warrant Officer 8
Chief Petty Officer 14
Petty Officer 54
Leading Hand 70
Able Rate 122
Logistics Department
Commander 1
Lieutenant Commander 1
Lieutenant 4
Warrant Officer 3
Chief Petty Officer 6
Petty Officer 14
Leading Hand 30
Able Rate 71
Medical Department
Commander 1
Lieutenant Commander 2
Lieutenant 1
Chief Petty Officer 1
Petty Officer 1
Leading Hand 2
Able Rate 3
Welfare Department
Warrant Officer 1
Chaplaincy Service
Commander 1
TOTAL 672
Source: http://qna.files.parliament.uk/qna-a...-%20210751.doc (304Kb)
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ONLY the non birdie fish head crew here:
EG
